Entry level mic preamp

[AlphaMouth]

Hey all. 1st post so be gentle. I'm looking for advice on adding some sweetness to my vocal and string (live cello, violin, bass) tracks that a good mic preamp can bring. I'm researching now to decide on budget and options. I am currently using the pre on the MOTU 828 with simple but usable results. I've read recently that I shouldn't waste the money on anything under about $600 (with $1000 being more practical).

Your thoughts?

Other details:

Mics - C1000's, KSM109, AT2025, AT2050
Cubase 5 w/Waves plugins

Glad I found you guys...!

P.S. Also looking for any advice on good vocal plugins settings in C5.

[Chris Lago]

First of all, the c1000 is a terrible microphone.

For that price, you could get a Safe Sound P1 preamp, as it's going to be better than anything in this price range ($600 range).

[minor_glitch]

I would just ignore that advice about not buying a preamp under $600.
Sure, there's a lot of cheap ones that you'll eventually outgrow, but there are a few cheaper ones that hold their own against the big boys.

The main one that comes to mind is the Golden Age Project Pre-73. That thing is absolutely fantastic and will definitely add a bit of colour to your sound.

I'll agree with chrislago's Safe Sound P1 recommendation too. Awesome little unit.

As for mics, two important factors come into play. Your budget, and your room.

If you can't afford a lot and your room isn't acoustically treated, the best mic you can choose would be the Sm7b for vocals.
It can do ok on strings, but it's not ideal. For strings, you may want to consider a pair of small disphragm condensers like the MXL 603's or the Oktava Mk-012. They seem to be great on acoustic guitar, and I'd imagine they'd be decent on violin too.
You may need something with more low end for the cello and bass though. I haven't had much experience recording either so I'll let someone else suggest mics for those.
Maybe you could get away with an all purpose mic like the Blue Bluebird?

[minor_glitch]

I just realized you were listing the mics you already have, not asking for recommendations. I think I need some sleep!

Then again, a different mic is sometimes an alternative to playing with vocal plugin settings!
Idealy with the right mic you'll only need to add a touch of compression and eq to get things where they need to be.

[shanabit]

Golden Age Project Pre-73

[kesslerjesus]

Get a rane ms-1b (100 or less used, has 6b more gain than the ms1 or ms1s) it has a very clean gain and should hold out until you decide to purchase a higher end pre-amp. I'm using mine to run my sm7 and it handles the job with class.

The M-audio DMP3 is also a good clean pre, it has two channels and runs at about 150 new.

I just found an M-audio DMP2, used for 50 bucks though, almost the same as the DMP3, gets the job done.

Now I'm just saving up for a good pre to purchase next year.

Good luck.

[sleeper1400]

ART makes really good products at reasonable prices.

i use their VLA on many signals before going digital, id imagine there preamps are just as nice.

[Gharper23]

Originally Posted by shanabit

Golden Age Project Pre-73

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I wouldn't really consider most preamps at the $600+ mark entry level.

When I think entry level I think like Tube MP and crap that's like around the $100 mark.

Some decent pres below $600 would be GoldenAge Pre 73 and the ART MPA GOLD. This is the around $300 range which I would consider middle of the road quality, nothing to be ashamed of here.

Some around $600-$1000 would be Safe Sound P1, Focusrite ISA One, Daking Solo, UA Solo 610, etc. These definitely are not entry level pres all are excellent.

[Topgear]

Originally Posted by AlphaMouth

Your thoughts?

Other details:

Mics - C1000's, KSM109, AT2025, AT2050
Cubase 5 w/Waves plugins
.

You're using cheap mics, thinking of buying a cheap preamp, yet you're using waves plugins?!

I think you're spending money in the wrong areas. I'd say get a better mic and save up for a good preamp as well. When it comes to plugins there are great cheap alternatives to waves, such as voxengo and stillwell audio.

[hpp99]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

Some around $600-$1000 would be Safe Sound P1, Focusrite ISA One, Daking Solo, UA Solo 610, etc. These definitely are not entry level pres all are excellent.

Good list.
I would like to add the SPL Goldmike 9844 (which I have never tried, but it's also under the price limit you mentioned) and the TL Audio Ivory II line. The TL Audio Ivory stuff is better than its reputation here. I owned an Ivory 5050 for a while, and it is not bad at all.

[hpp99]

Originally Posted by Topgear

You're using cheap mics, thinking of buying a cheap preamp, yet you're using waves plugins?!

I think you're spending money in the wrong areas. I'd say get a better mic and save up for a good preamp as well. When it comes to plugins there are great cheap alternatives to waves, such as voxengo and stillwell audio.

+1
When I made my first steps in recording, I had a cheapo Chinese LDC, a cheapo M-Audio soundcard, an untreated room, but I bought 2 UAD-1 cards with tons of plugins. Now that I am rebuilding my homestudio after a longer break, I do it exactly the other way round - I don't buy any plugins yet but save my money up to first have room treatment, a good mic (the SM7B is also on my list there) and a good interface.

[OceanMan]

focusrite voicemaster pro is pretty killer...about 700$ i think

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by OceanMan

focusrite voicemaster pro is pretty killer...about 700$ i think

i am not a huge fan of the higher priced focusrite platinum range. the trakmaster is good, but for this range, i am a chameleon labs 7602 devotee.

[AlphaMouth]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. So here's what I'm seeing so far:

1. Get new mics
   I know the AT20xx series isn't that great but why replace a cheap condenser with a dynamic mic designed for broadcasting? Seems apple/oranges to me? I'd get a 4033/50 or Sterling etc or even a C214 over a broadcast dynamic ANYDAY)
2. Mic Pres (in order of street price)
   Rane MS-1b $150
   Golden Age Project Pre-73 (Neve 1073 remake - sorta) $300
   ART MPA Gold (2-CH) $300
   Focusrite Trakmaster (S/PDIF outs!) $340
   SPL Goldmike 9844 (not sure if available in US)
   Chameleon Labs 7602 $720
   Safe Sound P1 preamp $750
   Focusrite Voicemaster Pro $750

Missing recommends on FMR RNP8380 ($475)

[OceanMan]

haha yeah no one seems to like the focusrite platinum series beside me

[fallforward]

I would get a matched pair of Oktava MK012's and practice stereo micing (XY, ORTF, and M/S) techniques before buying any more gear. The pre's on the 828 are definitely usable, and I would spend more focus on the craft of your recording than the gear.

I have used the 012's on all of the strings listed in various rooms and have been happy with the results. See what you like different about XY, and ORTF in different settings. Try doing some M/S work on your solo strings with the 2025 and 012 and experiment with different mic placements.

IMHO, this will improve your sound more than a new preamp. Good Luck!
Robby

[lobsty]

I have to say that I wouldn't consider pres to be the priority here either : I have an 828mkII and used it's internal pres before I started getting into the Sebatron and Summit pres. The 828 pres are not amazing and don't have a lot of character but they're actually quite reasonable. I still use them occasionly too. I think if you're going to make the jump to better pres, wait and make the jump to something really nice - don't get "stepping stone" stuff because the 828 already has you covered.

And I have to say the Sebatron vmp is GREAT for strings... I really love (proper!) tube pres on strings and vocals, especially when run pretty clean.

If you're thinking of saving for new mics, I've had really good results from a C414 and an R121... but having said that, my favourite ever violin results has been an absolute genius on a beautiful old violin recorded with a cheapo NT1 through the 828 pres - no, really!

[KeithMoonwannabe]

In all honesty I'd sell every mic you have now they are all pretty useless in my opinion. For your situation I'd say picking up a preamp at around $650 or less and a brand new Studio Projects CS5 would be the best signal chain you can get. For vocals I'd still suggest something like an SM7b or RE-20, broadcast dynamic mics work great on male vocals there is a reason so many studios in the world use them for that app over much "nicer" mics.

But I would also strongly suggest that you at least start treating your room especially if you want halfway decent results.

Why would you spend so much on plugs and software when you don't even have a good signal going into it? Not trying to insult here just trying to get you thinking where you should be thinking. Start from the source and work your way up from there. You have to get the sound in the room right, then the mic, then the pre, etc etc. Not the other way around. Because no matter what medium you record with if it sounds like shit in the room it's gonna sound like shit on tape/disk.

[AlphaMouth]

Several of your replies have hit on a good point of mic selection, room treatment and plugins. I've done mostly live work up till now with only sequneced instrument recordings with occasion V/O work. The AT2025 was fine for this. I am now growing to more session work with other performers and want to step forward in quality.

The Waves plugins were for my post/editing work and only cost me <$500.
CB5 was for the sequence work and the (now important) vocal/instrument takes.
The mics (C1000's) worked great for me live (along with the smattering of other Shure go tos).

I realize I need to step up to a REAL studio grade large diaphram mic for REAL results. Being a novice at pres, I thought this would be a good next step. Sounds like I might be best served with spending the same $ on a mic instead. As was previously said, "Junk in, Junk out" even through a good pre.

Room treatment is already in progress and working well. More of this will just mean better results, I know.

Thanks again for all the perspectives. Keep em coming if you feel you have more to add.

[sanjari]

Save up for a SCA preamp with one module.... something that isnt too expensive, and will be ALWAYS be useable.

Microphones ?..... The KEL HM7U is amazing for the money.

[lynyrd]

The Seventh Circle Audio stuff is killer, high quality preamps that you could use for your whole career. If you went with their T15 preamp, a clean uncoloured sounding unit with chassis, harness, and power supply, you would be looking at $399 plus shipping to get into it. Then as you decide to expand, you can get 1 preamp at a time so the hit to the wallet is less painful. If you decided to go higher end and started with their Neve type preamp (harder to build but boy, do they sound good), you would be looking at $650.
Another option would be to go with a Mackie Onyx. Mackie doesn't seem to get a lot of love around here for most of their products but the Onyx is the exception. I have heard many times that the Mackie Onyx sounds quite good. Oh, and by the way, if it matters a lot to you, my opinion of the Onyx is based solely upon research, my opinion regarding the SCA products is based upon personal experience.
Good luck with your search!

Originally Posted by sanjari

Save up for a SCA preamp with one module.... something that isnt too expensive, and will be ALWAYS be useable.

Microphones ?..... The KEL HM7U is amazing for the money.

[minor_glitch]

Originally Posted by AlphaMouth

why replace a cheap condenser with a dynamic mic designed for broadcasting?

Probably because a good dynamic mic can potentially sound far better than a cheap condenser. I dare say the SM7 is used equally as much in recording studios as it is in broadcasting, and for good reason.

Even a great condenser in an untreated room won't sound all that good compared to something like an SM7, which does a good job taking the room out of the picture.

Search gearslutz for some videos and audio samples that have been posted of the SM7 in action and you'll see what I mean.
There was an awesome video posted a while back of a female country artist singing into an SM7. She sounded fantastic.

[minor_glitch]

Actually, here's a video of Eddie Vedder singing into an Sm7:

YouTube - Pearl Jam - AOL Sessions - Gone

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by AlphaMouth

Several of your replies have hit on a good point of mic selection, room treatment and plugins. I've done mostly live work up till now with only sequneced instrument recordings with occasion V/O work. The AT2025 was fine for this. I am now growing to more session work with other performers and want to step forward in quality.

The Waves plugins were for my post/editing work and only cost me <$500.
CB5 was for the sequence work and the (now important) vocal/instrument takes.
The mics (C1000's) worked great for me live (along with the smattering of other Shure go tos).

I realize I need to step up to a REAL studio grade large diaphram mic for REAL results. Being a novice at pres, I thought this would be a good next step. Sounds like I might be best served with spending the same $ on a mic instead. As was previously said, "Junk in, Junk out" even through a good pre.

Room treatment is already in progress and working well. More of this will just mean better results, I know.

Thanks again for all the perspectives. Keep em coming if you feel you have more to add.

You have the budget to fix both problems at the same time like I said spend about $650 on a pre and $350 for an SP CS5. The CS5 is the only mic I can confidently say will impress you in it's price range for everything you are doing. And I base that off my experience recently auditioning one on my voice and acoustic guitar. I was actually going to order one for my home studio but I got laid off at work so no toys for a while, not until I'm situated with my financial priorities.

The CS5 can hold it's own against some very reputable mics btw. Many that have used it compare it to the U87. I don't know if I'd personally go that far but for the price I have yet to find something that sounded that good on my acoustic guitar. I'm not really a terrific singer, just kinda average, so it seemed to work well but I just don't have much to start with

Around $600 you can get yourself a very very good preamp and for another $350 a very good mic. I just don't think for live or studio use a C1000 is worth having around nor the two AT20 series condensers. The KSM109 is decent for some recording stuff and works well live. Sell em use the money to fund the pre and the CS5. You will get more out of that single mic and that upgraded pre than you can possibly get now.

Assuming you have solid performances and talent as an artist and as an engineer and a decent sounding room there is no reason you should dislike the results from a $1k signal chain. In all honesty I'd be perfectly content with a solid single channel mic pre in the $600 range and the CS5. I honestly wish I could just make my rig that simple and just get a really nice AD converter to transfer it to my computer. But that's just outside of my current means for a part time hobby.

[gorillainthemix]

Originally Posted by chrislago

First of all, the c1000 is a terrible microphone.

For that price, you could get a Safe Sound P1 preamp, as it's going to be better than anything in this price range ($600 range).

you have no idea what you're talking about do you?

To OP:
Don't listen to people who lack the skills to make a decent recording with a budget mic.
The C1000s is fine all-purpose mic. Not high-end, but you can get very high-end results. Believe me, I've done it plenty of times and people couldn't believe it was a C1000s.
For your pre I would look at the UA Solo 610 and change the tubes, or maybe the already mentioned Focusrites.

[Topgear]

Originally Posted by minor_glitch

Probably because a good dynamic mic can potentially sound far better than a cheap condenser. I dare say the SM7 is used equally as much in recording studios as it is in broadcasting, and for good reason.

Even a great condenser in an untreated room won't sound all that good compared to something like an SM7, which does a good job taking the room out of the picture. .

Exactly. You do need a decent preamp with a bit of gain for the sm7 to be great.

Saying "why would I get a broadcast mic when I need a vocal mic" displays a lack of understanding of the sm7 and how it works.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by lynyrd

Another option would be to go with a Mackie Onyx. Mackie doesn't seem to get a lot of love around here for most of their products but the Onyx is the exception. I have heard many times that the Mackie Onyx sounds quite good. Oh, and by the way, if it matters a lot to you, my opinion of the Onyx is based solely upon research, my opinion regarding the SCA products is based upon personal experience.
Good luck with your search!

+1 for Mackie Onyx - excellent preamp.. Clear - lots of headroom

[ARIEL]

The focusrite ISA one is great , But if need a unit with compression as well the FR Trackmaster is fine too . Some may not dig it but i used to have a bunch of it and it worked well . Also the Presonus MP20 is cool too . For an excellent all aorund mic i suggest getting AN AT4050 - excellent for all types of vocals and acoustis . very natural and flat .

[kedbear]

In your situation i would definitely go for the broadhurst gardens DAV BG1. This is the preamp that was designed for and by Decca, famous for it's classical recordings. The Dav replaced the neves etc at Decca. It is a 2 channel preamp and gives excellent clean gain. You could pick one up second hand for $600 or less. You can read about it on this board and hear samples of it against top preamps.

The other option i would go for is the metric halo ULN-2. This is a stunning unit that gives both top draw AD/DA conversion and has superb on board preamps. It is a fantastic unit and you won't read a bad word about it. Pick one up second hand for $800. It is mac only though. If i had a mac, this is the route i would go because it includes stunning preamps along with fantastic AD/DA conversion, great 80 bit mixer etc etc. Not to mention it's potential for DSP, the 2D card for expansion etc should you want to upgrade it in the future. You'll be looking for the legacy (original version), not the expanded or dsp version which is more expensive. Just read up on it or go to mhlabs.com to see what people think of it.