micing for raw ambience

[bannerj]

I know this might be a no brainer...duh....just set up some room mics or an omni...maybe some pzms and experiement, but this is all that I have been doing already. I am looking for some suggestions on what techniques you guys might use.

I have been very influenced by Eliot Smith and his recording techniques. I also like ambient recordings like Great Lake Swimmers first disc. I want something raw but not necessarily low-fi. I have some good gear and want to use it well.

We are tracking my wife's harmonies with me on guitar and lead vocal. I want to do this all at once in our living room (15 x 15, 10 ft ceilings, wood floor, bare walls).

I have:
pres: ua 2108, gr mp2nv,

mics: oktava mk012 matched pair with all three capsules, 414, ksm 44, sm7, 2 57s, 1 58, 2 pzms

compression: dbx 160x, and the comps/limiters in my metric halo 2882

I want to track it all on my 8 track otari 5050

I do have about $1000 to spend too. Purchases?

How would you guys do this?

[tINY]

Spend it on acoustic treatment - you'll need it in a room that small.



-tINY

[bannerj]

no...the point is that I actually like the sound of the room and want to capture it.

I actually think the ceiling are higher than 10...maybe 11. Anyway...I like its sound.

[kenm]

I'm not sure what your questions is... You seem to have plenty of nice gear to record with. Find a spot you like to sit and play/sing in, set up a mic and see what it sounds like. If you want lots of room sound, use omni mics and set them up at a distance from your mouth/guitar.

Ken

[bannerj]

I am looking for suggestions...stories...anecdotes....what have you done to capture ambience? Has anybody ever recorded two voices and a guitar in mono? Or with just two stereo mics? I am trying to brainstorm here for things I haven't already tried. mics? placement?

[darjama]

when I think Elliott Smith, I think of doubled sounds, doubled vocals, doubled guitars, 12 strings. I'd say you want to go for stereo.

Looking at your equipment list seems like there's only 4 preamp channels, is that right? So unless you've got a good mixing board, I guess I'd spend on more preamps. Since you've got some high quality pres, you could add some bang-for-the-buck options. The Groove Tubes Brick, ElectroHarmonix 12AY7, or a Sytek would all fit the bill. And I'd get a small rug to put under you (though not necessary covering the whole room).

how about setting up pzms on the walls or floors, using the oktavas in xy configuration for the guitar, and mic each vocal with whatever best suits each of you. Throw in another room mic or two if you like. Or leave them our and do some doubling.

[joninc]

or go for the t-bone burnett/gillian welch thing of single LDC.

the great lake swimmers stuff is great though i do prefer the new record.

i think a lot of the stuff you are describing is more lofi - condenser mic vocal sounds. atleast the old elliott smith stuff. not too much top end - less bright in general. neither would have a lot of compressions - more subtle.

you probably have better gear than was used on the first few elliott smith records and that first gls record so you might want to get a cassette four track and use a 58 for vocals and a 57 on guitar/ probably not what you wanted to hear ....

(obviously the later elliot smith stuff is way more hifi and has great gear and does use more compression etc.. but is not very ambient IMHO - more direct and close sounding)

apparently steve albini has a technique (probably other use this too) - i think used on some of the songs:ohia stuff where he'll close mic the vocalist with another mic several feet back which he'll gate in the mix and they only open up when the vocalist lets loose a bit so you hear the room more on the loud stuff.

pzm's can be cool for loud stuff but probably a bit hissy for quieter stuff. they can be cool for direct stuff tho - jeremy enigk did all his vocals and acoustic with pzms on his return of the frog queen record which is pretty cool and way sounding.

i'd say get some close mic on the voc/acou/bg with you sitting as far apart in the room as possible and throw up a LDC in omni in the center of the room/ if you have more channels than add more room mics.

[joninc]

or go for the t-bone burnett/gillian welch thing of single LDC and have you both stand around it and work it like a mix - come closer and lean back etc.. for dynamics.

the great lake swimmers stuff is great though i do prefer the new record.

i think a lot of the stuff you are describing is more lofi - almost condenser mic vocal sounds. atleast the old elliott smith stuff. not too much top end - less bright in general. neither would have a lot of compression - it's more raw sounding.

you probably have better gear than was used on the first few elliott smith records and that first gls record so you might want to get a cassette four track and use a 58 for vocals and a 57 on guitar/ (probably not what you wanted to hear .... haha)

(obviously the later elliot smith stuff is way more hifi and has great gear and does use more compression etc.. but is not very ambient IMHO - more direct and close sounding)

apparently steve albini has a technique (probably other use this too) - i think used on some of the songs:ohia stuff where he'll close mic the vocalist with another mic several feet back which he'll gate in the mix and they only open up when the vocalist lets loose a bit so you hear the room more on the loud stuff.

pzm's can be cool for loud stuff but probably a bit hissy for quieter stuff. they can be cool for direct stuff tho - jeremy enigk did all his vocals and acoustic with pzms on his return of the frog queen record which is pretty cool and way sounding.

i'd say get some close mic on the voc/acou/bg with you sitting as far apart in the room as possible and throw up a LDC in omni in the center of the room/ if you have more channels than add more room mics.

experiment and have some fun! i'd love to hear what you come up with.

[tINY]

If you like the sound using your ears - then try an ORTF set-up or a Dummy Head. A lot or rooms that sound good when you are in them record horribly with X-Y or spaced pair (and especially mono).

The problem is that your two ears will blend the room from two locations and smooth out comb filtering, low-frequency inballance and even some flutters. Often, getting that sound you are hearing to tape and back through stereo speakers in another room is harder than you might think.

That said, mic placement is everything - especially in a small, square room with bare walls and no carpet..



-tINY

[mig27]

I've had good look with odd ball dynamics, placed in various unusual positions.
For example Sennheiser MD21 omni, Uher M534, cheap-ass Telefunken and Grundig mics from the flea market.
They usually get compressed to hell with cranky sounding gear.
Think early Altec solid state compressors (1591a), half-broken broadcasting limiters like the Gates Solid Statesman or Volumaxes.
Sometimes stomp boxes work nicely.

I also like to find a position in the room where the bass drum gets a nice and deep resonance. Put a mic right there and trigger gate it with the dry BD signal - play with the release time.
Dito on snare...

My 2 cents.


Michael

[bannerj]

thank you for all your thoughts. I do realize that my gear is nicer than what most of my favorite records were made with. I think it might be silly to work backwards at this point, and I want to really understand my gear well for my music...not just for the bands I record. But that said I do think it is all about mic placement and these are good suggestions.

[Drumsound]

Does the room you're using have a hallway going from it? Put a mic or two in it. If you've got gates you could even set them up to only open at certain volumes like Tony Viscontti did with Bowie.

[bannerj]

The room is attatched directly to the dinning room that then has a hallway off of it. I have tried this--stick the mic in another room/hallway trick--and haven't ever been very happy. This makes me think of another question I have been struggling with...maybe I should post this in another thread?

I have been tracking for local bands now for about two years. I've done six projects in my spare time. No body is hiring me to mix their stuff yet, and admittedly I am not ready to mix anthing for print. I know that many people make a distinction between a tracking engineer and a mixing engineer. I also know that many of you do both. The question: shouldn't a mixing engineer have a pretty solid understanding of mixing so that he knows how to think about how the sounds add up in the mix?

This hallway micing technique is a good case in point. Perhaps the issue is that I don't yet understand what that hallway mic will bring to the mix. By itself it might just sound uninteresting, but to a mixing engineer there might be frequencies that seem important and interesting.

btw...how long did it take you guys to begin enjoying your mixes?

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by bannerj

btw...how long did it take you guys to begin enjoying your mixes?

About 16 years.

[Alexi]

hey there,

you own pretty awesome gear already,.............start recording and spend the money on a weekend trip to paris (with your wife)



cheers

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by bannerj

The room is attatched directly to the dinning room that then has a hallway off of it. I have tried this--stick the mic in another room/hallway trick--and haven't ever been very happy. This makes me think of another question I have been struggling with...maybe I should post this in another thread?

I have been tracking for local bands now for about two years. I've done six projects in my spare time. No body is hiring me to mix their stuff yet, and admittedly I am not ready to mix anthing for print. I know that many people make a distinction between a tracking engineer and a mixing engineer. I also know that many of you do both. The question: shouldn't a mixing engineer have a pretty solid understanding of mixing so that he knows how to think about how the sounds add up in the mix?

This hallway micing technique is a good case in point. Perhaps the issue is that I don't yet understand what that hallway mic will bring to the mix. By itself it might just sound uninteresting, but to a mixing engineer there might be frequencies that seem important and interesting.

btw...how long did it take you guys to begin enjoying your mixes?

I think it’s a good idea for any engineer to understand and be able to track and mix. I even think it's a good idea to attempt mastering to really have an understanding of the whole process. I talked to one of the major NYC mastering engineers while at TapeOpCon. I had noticed him in many of the panels as a listener for two years running. I asked him about hanging out and listening. He told me that he had spent very little time tracking and mixing because within his first year as a studio employee he landed in the Mastering room and stayed. He though it was a good idea for him to know what kind of things are happening in the tracking and mix rooms so that he can make his mastering that much better.

To specifically answer about things like distance mics, even if the projects are going elsewhere to mix, you should give it a shot before the stuff leaves your place, or if you ever work digital, make session copies for your own use. Try things out, see how things react and help/hinder each other. Practice mixing, remix your own stuff. Have a friend come over and cut a song for free and experiment.

[AjD]

Love this thread. Wish there were more discussions like this here.

I'm a big fan of using room ambience creatively. Think Vic Chessnut, Richard Buckner, Tom Waits (especially later period, like Bone Machine) and a lot of the Buddy Miller stuff.

Some ideas.

- Close mic a featured instrument when overdubbing it. Also put one large condenser on the far back wall. Pan the far mike hard at mix time. Close mic is panned just a little off center, the opposite direction.
- Do the above, without the pans. Roll off the top end on the close mic. Roll off the bottom on the far mic. Blend (careful of phasing).
- Close mic your lead vocal overdubs. Now recut the lead vocals with a mic really far away. There will be (intentional) inconsistencies, since it's a different performance. Very cool, lennon sounding. Do this twice next. At mix, almost hard pan each distant take opposite sides (L & R). Keep the close take up the middle. Great for depth during choruses (or weird third/final verses).
- Do the same as above, but really SHOUT the lead vocal. Scream it even. Overdo it with an over the top performance. Mix this one kind of low and to the left or right. Or mix it at a higher volume, but roll off a ton of hi's.
- Use the bare, reflective fluttery walls to your advantage: Try pointing a cardiod at the wall instead of at the instrument. Catch only the reflections (put a stuffed chair between the mic and the instrument). At mix time, compress this mike heavily, roll off any mud, and use it as your 'reverb' ambience.

Adam

P.S. Definitely think it's important to understand mixing goals, at least to help you capture what you'll need later at mix time. To wit:

Typically when I cut a band, I'll have them do all the bed tracks live and played together (a la Let It Bleed, old blues records, whatever - I'm very old school about my approach to the very first takes). Once the band is set-up and sounding good in the room, the first thing I do is get the best stereo room (ambient, distant-y) sound I can. I'll walk around the room, wearing isolation phones (Remote Audios) and move the stereo pair until it sounds 'just right' to me.

Then, I move on to add the typical close mics on individual instruments. But always, I get the room mics first.

The reason I do this has everything to do with mixing. At mix time, before I'll add any reverb to any of the individual tracks, I'll push up the stereo room mics from the original bed tracks. If I'm trying to keep the low end tight, I'll roll off some of the low end on the room mics. But always - I add the room first.

I find this helps keep things very 'organic' sounding, and avoids the whole processed 'verb sound. That's the best thing about using real room ambiences - it just sounds real.

[James Guitar]

Originally Posted by joninc

apparently steve albini has a technique (probably other use this too) - i think used on some of the songs:ohia stuff where he'll close mic the vocalist with another mic several feet back which he'll gate in the mix and they only open up when the vocalist lets loose a bit so you hear the room more on the loud stuff.

interesting idea, for sure. i heard that this technique was pioneered by tony visconti on david bowie's "heroes". apparently he used three mics (close, mid, far) with the mid and far ones gated and set to open when required. as bowie's vocal gets progressively stronger in the song, the vocal sound changes as the middle mic opens, and when bowie starts belting it out, the far room mic opens and really changes the vocal texture in a most positive way.
nice.
-J