School big band recording

[wsal]

Hi there
I'm going to be doing a recording of the high school big band that I direct (I'm also a home recording 'hobbyist'). I'm trying to put together the necessary gear to get the job done on a small budget. The school has a Protools (digi002r) setup, with a nice big Mackie desk, which we'll be recording through. No external preamps except for my own Presonus Bluetube...
Anyway the current list of mics is
- 2 x Rode NT5
- 2 x Audio Technica ATM31 condensor
- 2 x ADK A51
- Shure Beta 52
- 2 x Shure SM57
- Countless Shure SM58s

We don't have enough inputs to track individual instruments (we have a total of 16 tracks when using an adat interface connected to the digi), nor indeed would there be time to get that set up. So my plan of attack is 2 mics per section, 2 players per each - this will work well as in the brass section trumpets 1+2 and trombones 1+2 are strong players, and 3+4 of each aren't so, in terms of tone, volume etc, so the similar players can be paired and dealt with accordingly.
The saxes are the only exception, being a 5 piece section, so I'm thinking maybe just a spaced stereo array, or altos with one, tenors with another, and the bari spot miked with an SM57 or 58.

So one plan of action on the uses for the above mics are:
-the Rodes (assuming they're a poor man's Neumann KM84, which are apparently a classic trumpet mic) on trumpets
-ATs on drum overheads, with Beta 52 on kick
-ADKs (assuming they're a poor man's U87) on either saxes or trombones.
Being a trombonist on the side, I've tried out the ADK, overdubbing a section's worth of parts and I quite like the sound, nice and direct and snappy, not tubby.

So finally, it seems I need another 2 mics. What's currently got me excited is the thought of buying 2 low budget ribbon mics, as I hear ribbons are a great way to tame the high end of trumpets, in which case the Rodes might go to saxes. Or they could go to overheads, and the ATs to saxes.
When I say low budget ribbon mics, I'm talking Apex, Nady, 2nd hand Reslo, MXL, maybe Cascade Fatheads, etc.
My only worry with ribbons is the figure of 8 pattern - as we'll be recording the band in the one room I would assume having as much control over rejection as possible would be ideal. Can that be worked around by placing a carpeted gobo behind the mic for example?

I've made a lot of assumptions here, and I know the best way to find out what's what is just to go testing, but in a school it can be a bit tricky to find time to spend AB'ing mics, when there's teaching and rehearsing to be done!
(by the way, guitar, bass and keys are all direct, unless you can convince me otherwise)

What do you all reckon?
Thanks
Will

[jetam]

Hi

I would put ADK's in ORTF or NOS stereo configuration to take image of full band. Then I would use RODE's as OH on drums, Beta 52 on kick and sm57 on snare. You can use other mics as spot mics and mix them only where needed.
If you run out of converters you can mix some spot microphones or drums to sub groups.

[wsal]

Thanks for the response. I'm hesitant about take that kind of approach for a few reasons: The room isn't acoustically crash hot, and the band isn't either. It has its strengths, but there are some younger members who can't match the power of the senior members in loud sections for example, and for that reason I'd like to have some more specific control.

Does anyone have any thoughts on my plan? Are cheap ribbons on trumpets a good idea? Is the fig 8 pattern going to be a problem when it comes to rejecting other sounds?

Cheers
Will

[fallforward]

You would probably want to setup the band differently than you do for live/rehearsing.

The way a lot of big band recordings are done is to setup like a V with the rhythm section in the middle. The saxes making up the left part of the V and the brass on the right. You can make some makeshift gobos to put on either side of the rhythm section if you want to tame some bleed.

As far as mic’s go. 2 per section sounds like the way to go, and is a very common setup. But for the saxes you will probably need to spot mic the Bari. And I would sit the Tenors next to each other instead of split up.

I would put the Rode’s on the Altos and Tenors sm57 on Bari, the ADK’s on the Trombones, ATM3’s and Beta 52 on the drums. Bass and keys direct, 57 on the guitar cab (make sure he/she doesn’t have it up too loud!), And I would suggest picking up a couple of Cascade Fatheads for the trumpets. You can make a gobo out of a pop filter and some foam to compensate for the figure 8 pattern. That would be a perfectly decent setup. There is only one thing that bugs me.

If you do keys direct, you have to hard pan them so that you don’t introduce any phasing issues. (Check all of the mics with each other to check phasing issues for that matter!) But in big band recordings it always sounds better to me to not have the piano spread all the way across the spectrum. Therefore I would use a mono send out of the keyboard, the only problem there is that unless you’ve got a fairly high end digital piano, the mono send usually sounds way worse that the stereo send.

Also if the drummer is doing a lot of brush work you may need a snare mic. For the OH's I find get better results to have the OH mics coming from behind the drummer, than from in front. I find that I get more drums, and less cymbals that way.

Do you need spot mics for solos? I wouldn't tempt fate, overdub them.

I would mix it like this

Alto mic Center
Tenor mic Left
Bari Mic Right
Bone mics hard Left and Right
Trumpet hard Left and Right
OH’s Hard Left and Right
Kick Center
Bass Center
Git 45 degrees Right
Piano 45 degrees Left

That is almost an LCR, I find that leaves more space for the rhythm section to not fight with the horns.

Check out the remote forum. There is a ton of great big band recording advice.
Robby

p.s. to place the mics/players, have the kids play some whole note chords, section by sections, and have them move around to get the best balance.

p.s.s. have fun man!

[KungFuLio]

Classic Lincoln Center recording (see image)....

ADK-51 One for the saxes, one for the brass Pan L/R
Rode NT-5 as spot mics for the Piano and Bass
ATm31 over the drums

ADK51 and the 31 about 6 feet high hang toward the sections.

If your band is well balanced, you will not need a spot mic on the guitar.

Do not hide the bad players, this is a learning experience for them.

This method really works well!

[wsal]

Awesome replies! Thanks very much. Another thing I haven't mentioned - the room is a drama room and has big wall to ceiling curtains that can cover over the windows and probably most of the walls. I know nothing about acoustics, but I was thinking putting those behind each section and drums especially would mean that unwanted sound would be less likely to bounce off the wall behind a section and into their mics. Ie, if the drums were facing the saxes, the mics' rejection patterns would reject the direct sound of the drums and the curtain would stop the reflected sound. Good idea?
Back on ribbon mics, I notice old reslo mics going dirt cheap quite often. I've heard varying descriptions of them - they were cheap junk back when they were made and still are, or they're retro and have nice character for certain things. Has anyone used them on trumpets? I'm aware also that they don't necessarily like to play ball with modern gear due to their impedance and gain etc. I have a presonus blue tube, and the desk we use is a Mackie 32.8. Would either of these do the job on a reslo, or would I need an upgraded preamp ie. RNP to make it happen?
Cheers
Will

[wsal]

Also, in regard to the piano recording issue - I just figured using a direct keyboard would avoid hassles and spill problems etc. We don't have a grand, but we do have pretty decent yamaha upright, and a Fender Rhodes for the electric piano parts. Miking the rhodes shouldn't be a problem I imagine, but I'd always just ruled out miking the upright as too difficult in this situation. Should I reconsider?

[GZsound]

I think trying to mic individual horns woule be difficult.

Three weeks ago I ran sound for an 18 piece big band made up of very talented junior high students.

I used three LD condensers placed about four feet high in front of the sax section in the front row. I put two SD mics in XY up high, about six feet, pointing toward the middle of the band.

They had a drum kit, electric bass and keyboard. I put two mics on the drums, AKG D112 on bass drum and a CAR M179 overhead. Ran the bass and keyboards direct.

Last Tuesday it was an 18 piece community orchestra. Pretty much the same configuration of three LD mics across the front with two SD mics up higher pointing toward the trumpets. Upright bass used a pickup and an onstage amp, so I took a preamp out, two mics on drums, SM57 on guitar amp, keyboard direct.. Wireless on vocalist.

I would never try to mic each horn...

[chris319]

I have experience with youth bands/orchestras in which the players don't play particularly well. Do a good job but don't get carried away, as the quality of the playing will definitely be the limiting factor. I sometimes have to remind myself that even if I put $4,000 worth of Schoeps mics on them, the playing is what it is and even the ultimate in technology won't make them better players. In short, you play the hand you're dealt.

[wsal]

Just want to bump this question. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it would be a good/bad idea to try and mic the upright piano if its in the same room as the rest of the band, or whether it'd be better to just plug in a digital 'plastic fantastic' keyboard?
Cheers
Will