Advice on real good, real simple mic technique

[2k2k]

Hi there, have been lurking a while and spent most of the day reading these boards, searching, pining, fantasizing ... enuff !

Here's the Q: I need to record myself - a one man show at the moment, no extra hands available - playing a classical nylon guitar. This isn't a classical gig though, it's just my instrument of choice for writing - my music is way more jazzy/bossanova pop song-based than the instrument would imply - and I need to start making decent recordings that sound good enough for now and perhaps even for later. Later, there will be other instruments (percussion, a 2nd guitar, maybe sax) so this is really not pristine church-recorded solo guitar territory.

So what do I got? So far, Logic Studio 8, an Apogee Duet and a MacBook Pro 17" monitoring thru the smaller active Mackie's (624's?) and a comfortable quiet purpose-built room built in the 'right' proportions... but I don't as yet know how it really sounds.

Basically, the next thing for me is mics, but given that I know little really about mic placement and as mentioned, there's just me to hear the sweet spots in the room... as well as play and move mics around... as well as setting levels, hitting record and making tea, I'm a little lost about which mics to buy and how to achieve what I want !!

There was a great thread earlier this month "410124-quiet-acoustic-guitar-mic-advice" that had me very excited about the CAD M179 due to it's quality and the Fo8 option to do MS recording with maybe a MC930... or an SM81... or maybe a 4021... and then I remember: be realistic. But when I start thinking 'be realistic' and just get a matched pair of 930's or NT5's, I think why buy 2 of the same microphone instead of getting more sonic options ?

So, tender slutz I ask you to sort me out: The musician in me just wants to plug directly into the portastudio and be done with it. The budding engineer wants it to sound bloody sparklingly brilliant, no matter what the cost in lost inspiration time. And somewhere between the two positions I have to record fast and efficiently and find a combination of mics, position/mounting, chair and placement that can easily be replicated. I think I can spend up to 500€/700$ for this next step. Oh, and I have an Aunt coming over from the States to Europe in the next few weeks, willing to bring electronics with her...

I know this is a hard ask, but bring it on folks !

Cheers,

2k2k

[badmark]

Take some drugs and buy a mic that looks sexy on eBay. Worked for me.

[Piedpiper]

sounds like you're on a budget. Go with a stereo pair of Michael Joly Oktavamod MK012. Place em nose to nose at a 45 degree angle about a foot out from the end of the finger board. Do something similar for your percussion. Think about getting his new MJE-K47H LDC head for one of the MK012 bodies for your sax when you add it. Succinct, damn good quality/value with a bit o magic. should capture what you want.

If you really care, you might want to upgrade your pres and converters, but that's a taller order.

[staticwhitesound]

To give you a general answer, and something to think about... I would say, if you see the classical guitar being at the forefront of the songs, you should think about recording it in stereo.

From there, you can think about mic choice. When I go to record acoustic guitar, if it's going to be a keeper track and it will be at the forefront of a song, I use my two AT4040s. One pointed at the 12th fret, one pointed at the bridge, and I've gotten great results with that. If I just want to use one mic, I just point the one at the 12th fret and call it a day. If the song will be a big rock song and the acoustic is just supposed to be a texture, a lot of times I'll just mic it with an sm57 or sm7 (a flat dynamic that i can eq however the song dictates), close up.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

sounds like you're on a budget. Go with a stereo pair of Michael Joly Oktavamod MK012. Place em nose to nose at a 45 degree angle about a foot out from the end of the finger board. Do something similar for your percussion. Think about getting his new MJE-K47H LDC head for one of the MK012 bodies for your sax when you add it. Succinct, damn good quality/value with a bit o magic. should capture what you want.

If you really care, you might want to upgrade your pres and converters, but that's a taller order.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

the stock mk012 would probably be too bright for a classical guitar so this is a great idea

[Matti]

Comment:
The Oktavas aren´t considered as bright, modded or not.
MJE-K47H LDC head won´t fit the Oktava. There are good LDC capsules for
012 by Oktava themselves.
Contact Oktavamod for more info if you go that route

Matti

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by MATTI

Comment:
The Oktavas aren´t considered as bright, modded or not.
MJE-K47H LDC head won´t fit the Oktava. There are good LDC capsules for
012 by Oktava themselves.
Contact Oktavamod for more info if you go that route

Matti

Thanks for the correction. That was an assumption on my part re: that head fitting the 012. I do like Michael's work and that capsule in particular from what I've heard of it. Although the stock 012 might not be as bright some others, Michael's mod is considerably smoother and more refined.

[2k2k]

sounds like you're on a budget.

well yes, but it's not time to start eating poptarts exclusively .... let's call it 700$ and if you all get real frisky, maybe a little more.

Go with a stereo pair of Michael Joly Oktavamod MK012. Place em nose to nose at a 45 degree angle about a foot out from the end of the finger board

ok this is what I need to hear. you'd recommend going with an x-y stereo pair for the simplicity of positioning i'm guessing ? and is that with the omni caps ?

and these over mc930 or sm81 or ?

a modded pair goes for 850$ direct from MJ - doable, but I'd love to hear a few more YES! thats the mic you need, as I shoot my mic wad in one purchase....

[Matti]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

well yes, but it's not time to start eating poptarts exclusively .... let's call it 700$ and if you all get real frisky, maybe a little more.



ok this is what I need to hear. you'd recommend going with an x-y stereo pair for the simplicity of positioning i'm guessing ? and is that with the omni caps ?

and these over mc930 or sm81 or ?

a modded pair goes for 850$ direct from MJ - doable, but I'd love to hear a few more YES! thats the mic you need, as I shoot my mic wad in one purchase....

X-y with the cardioid caps. Beyer mc 930 are a good choice also

Matti

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by staticwhitesound

To give you a general answer, and something to think about... I would say, if you see the classical guitar being at the forefront of the songs, you should think about recording it in stereo.

Really good point, thanks. I guess I take it as a given that for width and depth and interest, that I need to record in stereo, but the whole issue of placement within the mix, is a new one for me as I'm not there yet

It's not the only instrument firstly, but it isn't competing with vocals either. Forefront yes, but not in your face. It's not going to be tucked away like Joao Gilberto was, but I'm not the soloist either... hth

Originally Posted by staticwhitesound

From there, you can think about mic choice. When I go to record acoustic guitar, if it's going to be a keeper track and it will be at the forefront of a song, I use my two AT4040s. One pointed at the 12th fret, one pointed at the bridge, and I've gotten great results with that. If I just want to use one mic, I just point the one at the 12th fret and call it a day. p.

I guess this brings me back to what seemed to be the point of having 2 different mics - that if I'm going to be dcking around with placing one here and another there, that I might as well go whole hog and get say, an CAD m179 and something else (4021?) to vary the palette.

WIth a borrowed rode NT3, I've tried just pointing it at the 12th fret - and elsewhere - and the results were really flat and boring. Ditto or worse with my only mic - a C1000. No, it's stereo I need. Question is just how to get there....

[RTR]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

Really good point, thanks. I guess I take it as a given that for width and depth and interest, that I need to record in stereo, but the whole issue of placement within the mix, is a new one for me as I'm not there yet

It's not the only instrument firstly, but it isn't competing with vocals either. Forefront yes, but not in your face. It's not going to be tucked away like Joao Gilberto was, but I'm not the soloist either... hth



I guess this brings me back to what seemed to be the point of having 2 different mics - that if I'm going to be dcking around with placing one here and another there, that I might as well go whole hog and get say, an CAD m179 and something else (4021?) to vary the palette.

WIth a borrowed rode NT3, I've tried just pointing it at the 12th fret - and elsewhere - and the results were really flat and boring. Ditto or worse with my only mic - a C1000. No, it's stereo I need. Question is just how to get there....

I got some of the best acoustic guitar takes with a MXL V67g..and a CAD m179...one at the 15th fret and one at the bridge..

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by MATTI

X-y with the cardioid caps. Beyer mc 930 are a good choice also

Matti

Can you give me a little on the relative difference in sound that I might find between the mc930 and the MK-012 ?

On my (admittedly really low-end) nylon string guitar, the bass gets seems to get pretty clotted pretty quick, especially when playing hard. I should get someone to play it so I can hear it proper...

Back to x-y cards, so I wouldn't need to buy the kit with all the other caps ? The omni caps f'rinstance - what would they be good for ? A general room recording of band perhaps, in x-y or ORTF ?

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by RTR

I got some of the best acoustic guitar takes with a MXL V67g..and a CAD m179...one at the 15th fret and one at the bridge..

steel string or nylon ?

any samples ?

[staticwhitesound]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

a modded pair goes for 850$ direct from MJ - doable, but I'd love to hear a few more YES! thats the mic you need, as I shoot my mic wad in one purchase....

The mk012s seem to be the SDC of choice around here. And they are known to be very nice stock, and even better modded. So, I'm sure you could use them stock for a while and decide whether you want to mod them. And if you DO mod them, you won't end up with unusable tracks from your stock-recordings. I haven't used the mk012sbut I do have an unmodded MK-319 which I love and use often.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

Back to x-y cards, so I wouldn't need to buy the kit with all the other caps ? The omni caps f'rinstance - what would they be good for ? A general room recording of band perhaps, in x-y or ORTF ?

correct. You would only need the cards. SDCs tend to give you the refined clean detail you want without the overly responsive bottom end that you don't want in this case. Omnis can have a more natural off axis response but will be useless in coincident XY because there's no directionality, or ORTF because of phase problems. They are useful as widely spaced stereo pairs, where the phase problems are lessened (still not my favorite) and as mono room mics or as a spot mic in isolation. Although you can get interesting effects with placements like RTR suggested, either with identical or different mics, the phase cancellations WILL be heard and, IMHO, are not good. That type of mixed bag always sounds subtly confused in comparison to either mic on its own, or a coincident matched pair. The simplest way to get quality sound with integrity is with a coincident matched pair. IMHO, the easiest way to get that within your budget is to go ahead and buy a matched pair of modded 012 from Michael. As I said earlier, the modded version will be significantly smoother and more refined , and ultimately much more competitive with much more expensive industry standards such as Neumann KM84s or Schoeps CMC6s. Sure there are lots of flavors of ice cream but I don't think you can wrong with this one for what you're describing. Then you just have to work with mic placement to get the balance you want.

Incidentally, ORTF (matched pair of cards 17 cm apart at 110 degree angle) will cause phase cancellations as well unless they are baffled between such as with the Crown SASSP mkII and other binaural or "dummy head" configurations. Then it becomes requisite to place the mics no closer than will shadow the capsules with the baffle. With the Crown that is about 3 feet on axis. If you want a close miced type of presence this can become a problem as well as the room becoming increasingly critical. I personally like the Crown very much, as well as the slightly distance perspective, and I've done extensive work with modding them to great effect, but they are a bit out of your price range.

You can check out my Crown here: Oddball mics

scroll down to post #15 and beyond.

dealer disclosure for Crown. Joly sells direct only.

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

The simplest way to get quality sound with integrity is with a coincident matched pair.

OK, I'm hearing you loud and clear on this and it confirms what had already been my hunch. Great.

Now, let's get back to the mics for this pair (and their relative prices):

MPr modded 012's = 670€
MPr stock 012's = 289€

MPr NT5's = 270€
Rode NT4 = 369€

MPr MC930 = 649€
MPr c451b's = 666€
2 x AT4021 = 635€


Aaiiiiieeee !!!!! What would YOU take ?

Is the Joly mod really worth over double the stock?
And given that maybe the stock Oktavas won't be all that great out of box, isn't there a big argument for a pair of NT5's ?? (have seen the TapeOp SDC article)

[Piedpiper]

I was actually on the listening panel for Mike Jasper's Tape Op SDC shootout. Ironically, all your above choices except for the AKG were in my top 15 picks. The 012 in stock form did not stand out for me or Mike. Neither did the AKG.

As for those that did, the Beyer is rich and smooth but can be a little boomy. The Rode has a distinct in your face but not unpleasant bright midrange clarity/emphasis without being too edgy. For a similar price and a different flavor, another of my picks was the OktavaMod MXL603. This was brighter on the very top but cleanly so, as through the whole range, and IMHO, more neutral and very real sounding. The AT was surprisingly better than many for its price, including more expensive AT models, but for me, the Beyer was sweeter and more transparent. The AKG is well known for its brightness; not my preference. Another of my inexpensive picks was the Crown CM700 which stood out for it's warm rich sweet inoffensive sound, very unusual at its price, but again, others offered more transparency. One of my favorites in the brighter but not too bright category, but for a bit more money was the Neumann KM143. All my other picks were more expensive and not necessarily across the board "better." For my taste, for your budget and for your stated situation, it still lands on the OktavaMod MK-012. And yes, IMHO, they are that much better than stock.

If you were tracking your nylon strung guitar in the context of a dense mix, I would go for clean but extra bright, and even put a low cut on it to control its contribution to the mud zone. The NT5 or the OktavaMod MXL603 might be a good choice, especially for the price, which is a steal if they work for you. For the situation you describe, however, I would go for clean but warm and refined. I'm always interested in clean and revealing but not usually bright, and definitely never edgy, unless you really want low-fi grunge for effect; even still...

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

OK, I'm hearing you loud and clear on this and it confirms what had already been my hunch. Great.

Now, let's get back to the mics for this pair (and their relative prices):

MPr modded 012's = 670€
MPr stock 012's = 289€

MPr NT5's = 270€
Rode NT4 = 369€

MPr MC930 = 649€
MPr c451b's = 666€
2 x AT4021 = 635€


Aaiiiiieeee !!!!! What would YOU take ?

The 930 !
First the sound is really good, musical on all acoustic instruments.
Then the output is high (30mv/Pa) and it's a good point when you don't have a very good preamp with a lot of gain.
Then there is a very useful lo-cut at 6db/oct / 250hz which is great to compensate the proximity effect and don't overload your preamps.
Then they are very quiet and it's good to record guitar
Then it has a very constant cardioid pattern which is good to record in non ideal spaces.
Then the matched pair are really matched and so the imaging is very precise.
Then... until now I didn't find any significant default in them.
You can search all the samples I posted here with these mics. If you know and like the real sound of classical instruments you will have an idea of what can be done with these mics.
And yes I had the opportunity to compare with MK012 (not the modified one). The MK012 were very pleasant but the 930 give more the sensation to be there.
And for me the NT5 are clearly in a lower league.

But naturally the mics don't do the whole job ! you will need to learn about placement and a lot of other things to obtain the marvelous sound you are expecting.

JMM

[Piedpiper]

I forgot to ask you, are using a pick on that nylon strung guitar, soft fingers or nails? If your using only your soft fingers, you can stand to use a much brighter mic especially on the very top end to get more of the "thip". Otherwise, the pick will be too emphasized with a bright mic.

[SoundFancier]

Originally Posted by badmark

Take some drugs and buy a mic that looks sexy on eBay. Worked for me.

Works better for me if I'm sober when I buy the mic and on drugs when I'm playing...

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

I forgot to ask you, are using a pick on that nylon strung guitar, soft fingers or nails? If your using only your soft fingers, you can stand to use a much brighter mic especially on the very top end to get more of the "thip". Otherwise, the pick will be too emphasized with a bright mic.

No pick at all. I move pretty freely between a fingernail style sound and soft fingering, sometime in the middle of phrase, I'm starting to realise...

A lot of my stuff is played pretty fast too so what seems to be happening is that the downstroke 'damps' and the upstroke plucks, if that's clear. Sets up a syncopation in my playing. But the sound overall is much deader than a classical player's picking style.

As for those that did, the Beyer is rich and smooth but can be a little boomy.

I keep hearing really good things about the 930: wouldn't the low-cut filter cut down on a lot of the boominess you identify ?

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

The 930 !
First the sound is really good, musical on all acoustic instruments.
Then the output is high (30mv/Pa) and it's a good point when you don't have a very good preamp with a lot of gain.
Then there is a very useful lo-cut at 6db/oct / 250hz which is great to compensate the proximity effect and don't overload your preamps.
Then they are very quiet and it's good to record guitar
Then it has a very constant cardioid pattern which is good to record in non ideal spaces.
Then the matched pair are really matched and so the imaging is very precise.
Then... until now I didn't find any significant default in them.
You can search all the samples I posted here with these mics. If you know and like the real sound of classical instruments you will have an idea of what can be done with these mics.
And yes I had the opportunity to compare with MK012 (not the modified one). The MK012 were very pleasant but the 930 give more the sensation to be there.
And for me the NT5 are clearly in a lower league.

But naturally the mics don't do the whole job ! you will need to learn about placement and a lot of other things to obtain the marvelous sound you are expecting.

JMM

Jean-Michel - je vous remercie bien pour tous çela...

I think you set out some real good points in favour of the 930 - some of which I hadn't necessarily heard so spefically. I'm going to try and find those samples yo mention.

A+

[Unclenny]

I've had some good results (steel string) with a KSM32 over my shoulder and a dynamic (e609 in my case) on the 12 fret.

Bet you could do that within your budget. Pop Tarts will be a bit extra.

[Audiop]

Don't forget to check out the CM3 from Line Audio.

I wrote this in another thread:

More or less on the level of Earthworks and Sennheiser.

I have MKH8040, MKH8020 and QTC1 and the CM3 plays in the same league IMO. Getting my second pair soon.

(quiet) acoustic guitar mic advice.


/Peter

[dan_zero]

i heard some cool nylon guitar recorded the other day with a KEL HM7U....


that might be worth checking out, but i could help wondering what it would have sounded like with the newer HM-3C.....


have a look kelaudio.com

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

Jean-Michel - je vous remercie bien pour tous çela...

I think you set out some real good points in favour of the 930 - some of which I hadn't necessarily heard so spefically. I'm going to try and find those samples yo mention.

A+

Fine if I gave you some useful informations, but... my first name is Jean-Marie

Some people complain about a boxy sound for the 930. I think it's because it has been optimized for semi-distant miking where it gives a full sound. So the proximity effect should be compensated and the lo-cut of the mic makes that very well.

JMM

[2k2k]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Fine if I gave you some useful informations, but... my first name is Jean-Marie

Well, I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right...

Some people complain about a boxy sound for the 930. I think it's because it has been optimized for semi-distant miking where it gives a full sound. So the proximity effect should be compensated and the lo-cut of the mic makes that very well.

The choice has really come down to the 930 and the standard MK-012 and if the natural warmth or boominess of the 930 can be simply compensated for with a hi-pass, thats a point in it's favour as warmth or richness is good to have in my book - up to a point.

But re-reading your last para, I'm not sure I understand you: you mean that there'll be even more boxy/boomyness if I'm closer than the optimized semi-distant position, so I'll for sure need the lo-cut... ?

Perhaps you could better define proximity and semi-distant miking ?

BTW, have you ever run into Didier Rousseau in your organ recording in Toulouse? He plays quite often at St Sernin. Cheers

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

BTW, have you ever run into Didier Rousseau in your organ recording in Toulouse? He plays quite often at St Sernin. Cheers

I PM you

JMM

[2k2k]

OK, well I've listened and learnt and finally I ponied up last night as time isn't unlimited...

Went for a matched pair of stock Oktava MK-012's for a couple of reasons maybe worth noting:

My signal chain is nothing to write home about (>>Duet>>MBP>>Logic) and neither are my ears (tinnitus ...)

So I'm not convinced that I'd hear a big diff between the 012's and say, the 930's that I was considering (that's even if I do manage to find that sweet spot where they really shine) and certainly not convinced enough to justify the 400€ difference. No, better that I get to know these and as and when my needs justify it and my ears have started forming opinions, that I can say, "I need these qualities that these mics don't have".

But then this AM I saw a new CAD M179 on ebay US for the ridiculous price of 170 bucks and I pressed the button and paid and so you see, I'm a real gearslut after all.



Will report back when they all arrive. Thanks to all who took the time to advise, it's much appreciated.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by 2k2k

OK, well I've listened and learnt and finally I ponied up last night as time isn't unlimited...

Went for a matched pair of stock Oktava MK-012's for a couple of reasons maybe worth noting:

My signal chain is nothing to write home about (>>Duet>>MBP>>Logic) and neither are my ears (tinnitus ...)

So I'm not convinced that I'd hear a big diff between the 012's and say, the 930's that I was considering (that's even if I do manage to find that sweet spot where they really shine) and certainly not convinced enough to justify the 400€ difference. No, better that I get to know these and as and when my needs justify it and my ears have started forming opinions, that I can say, "I need these qualities that these mics don't have".

But then this AM I saw a new CAD M179 on ebay US for the ridiculous price of 170 bucks and I pressed the button and paid and so you see, I'm a real gearslut after all.



Will report back when they all arrive. Thanks to all who took the time to advise, it's much appreciated.

I know this is all theory to you but don't underestimate the differences, or your ability to hear them, or anyone else's. IME, when the magnifying glass of recording goes on, all this becomes very real. In the scheme of things any of these options are on the very cheap end of the spectrum. 400 Euros is nothing. Enjoy!