Advice on getting overheads to capture the full kit image.

[trevoire520]

Hey all, I'm currently on the hunt for some overhead mic's as I've recently realised how unsatisfied I am with the sounds I am getting.
I seem to be getting lots of cymbals and not enough drums. I usually go for spaced cardiods over the kit, though I've gone coincident a couple of times too.

I messed around with placement during a session the other day bringing the Oh's lower down but I still found my drums lacking punch and the cymbals still were coming out too loud.

In the past I've used Red 5 Audio RV8's, AKG C414BULS, Audio Technica AT4050, AKG C430 and I'm currently using AKG C391B's.

I listened to alot of my old sessions the other day and (worryingly) my best results were with the RV8's in very poor rooms (my living room and a garage) with no acoustic treatment. The drums seem much more direct, in your face and punchier, even when compared to AT4050's or 414's from my college recordings (which were in a VERY well designed and treated room)

Is it maybe that with the RV8's being cheaper that they're less sensitive and are picking up less reflections and ambient sound from the room? Resulting in more direct drum sound?

I've currently got a pair of CAD M179's and an AT4040 at my disposal, I'm thinking maybe the variable patterns on the CAD's might help me to dial the room out a bit?

If anyone could tell me if I'm making sense, or chime in with a reccomendation for some new overhead mic's (though I doubt this is the problem) it would be greatly appreciated.

[rty5150]

ribbons catch the full kit very well. my fatheads are phenomenal when i am looking for a complete view of the kit. i use LDCs for when i just want cymbals.

[KRStudio]

What pres are you currently using? Many of the mice you are using or have used are very nice. I would be inclined to look elseware as in pre's, comps, adc.

[videoracer]

With only two mics, what are you really expecting flying them overhead? Especially if you're using cardioids. You need to place them lower around the kit. Also, use omnis. Better yet, use omni PZMs.

Place them slightly below floor tom top rim level, maybe around the bottom the snare rim level (not necessarily BY the snare, although you never know). Find an area between the floor tom and kick/mounted toms for one mic, and the other one either in front or behind the hi-hat (depending on the rig) aimed at the snare/kick.

These are not etched-in-stone placements, just start here, and move around, record a pass, and LISTEN. You may be surprised at how well you can get a good balance of the whole kit. Keep the omnis as close to the kit as you can. You'll probably need to pad 'em (if they're condensers).

The idea is to place the mic at some equidistant length from all of the kit parts relative to a pickup area. Obviously it's never going to be perfect, but with the omnis you'll get a nice, full sound, and because you'll probably be padded (if they're condensers) and with relatively low gain (due to proximity to a loud sound source) your leakage will actually not be so bad.

PZMs are perfect for this type of setup because they don't suffer from comb filtering effects over distance as much as standard mics do (that "hollow" room sound). They tend to "hear" more the way the human ear would here the same environment.
PZM Microphones
Crown Audio | PZM30D Pressure Zone Boundary Microphone | PZM-30D
Barring that, use true omnis, either dynamics like these:
635 Family Wired Microphones - Electrovoice
or condensers like these:
C4 - Small-Diaphragm Matched Pair Microphones

Hope this helps, have fun!

[rty5150]

btw, how does the room sound? that may be the root of your problem, after that i would look at placement.

[videoracer]

Yeah, your garage doesn't help, or a large living room. You may want to consider temporarily hanging some canvas tarps around to diffuse some of the reflections:
Canvas Tarps - Waterproof Canvas Tarps, White Canvas Tarps, White Canvas Tarp, Custom Canvas Tarps

[BOWIE]

Your equipment is adequate. If it sounds good in the room, you're just going to have to experiment with positioning. Some guys spend days doing this.
If it doesn't sound good in the room, then you've got a problem on your hands. No mic or preamp in the world is going to make a bad sound turn good.

[Oli_W]

really smash those drums but caress the china!

[stafs]

From my experience in this kinda situation 9times out of 10 it's drummers fault. Bashing hat and cymbals is'nt the best way how to get drums sounding good. Less metal, more drums - golden rule. Of course, if You are hitting drums properly, positioning is only about getting excellent sound. If not... positioning can help You eliminate some problems, but it wont be that 'aaahhh' sound.
You have good mics, so my advice is - treat the room (but not overdo this). Try lighter, sticks without plastic ends. Softer cymbals. You can even try to put a little piece of cloth on them. Or gaffa tape (last resort). Only then play with mics. Positioning IS king, but only after drums and room sounds good as possible. But first - play cymbals softer and drums harder. It's working, indeed! Good luck!

[bunnyholmes]

I've had success with a pair of 414 BULS about 3' out from the front of the kit about 1' higher than the mounted toms at about a 30 degree angle to the surface of the drum heads...Mics in a 120 degree x/y config...

[Iggy Poop]

I recently started using a pair of PZM's in addition to overheads. I'm using a pair of Blue Dragonfly's for overheads but I was trying to achieve an overall bigger sound than what I was getting. The PZM's were just the trick I needed. I mount them about 6 feet in front of the kit spaced about 5-6 feet apart at roughly hte same height as the rack toms. Gives me alot more options when mixing drums and fills out the overall drum track. My room is a decent size but the ceiling is very low (around 7.5 ft). Low ceilings are hard to work with but the PZM's really help.

[trevoire520]

Originally Posted by KRStudio

What pres are you currently using? Many of the mic's you are using or have used are very nice. I would be inclined to look elseware as in pre's, comps, adc.

At the moment I'm using the pre's from my Allen Heath Mixwizard or the pre's on my Profire 2626, though I've also used pre's on a Soundcraft Spirit Studio, Digidesign PRE and Focusrite ISA 428. Again though my best results were from RV8's in crap rooms going into the stock pre's on my old AW16G!

I think cymbal bashers are certainly part of the problem, some of the guys on my sessions are pretty bad when it comes to playing a kit so that it translates well in the recording.

I'll admit that I'm a bit dubious about using omni's as the rooms I'm working in aren't great by any means, but really I'm willing to try anything at the moment. Thanks for the idea's guys I'll be trying out the placements suggested.

[nomoreflakes]

really disagree with this play the cymbals quiet and the drums hard nonsense.

the ride cymbal in particular will get lost very quickly

probably a good idea for 80's style pop where you want an isolated snare that you can add a ton of echo to.

for guitar music of aggressive intent you absolutely need to twat the shit out of everything like you will die if you dontor it will sound lame. it always sounds hit half as hard on playback.

go easy on how open the hat is when you hit it but in general play exactly how you would playing out live

[Slikjmuzik]

Don't mean to resurrect and all, but, did you try using the 4040 as a single overhead and then the M179's about 9ft away as a pair and pan them hard left/right? If you haven't, by all means, do so!! If you have it, use a form of an 1176 in British mode on the room mics and watch your drumset come to life.

Also, you mentioned you had used some AKG C430's. What was your impression of these on overheads? How would you compare them with sm81's if you've experienced both? Anyone else. I've got my eye on a pair of those C430's for pretty cheap, but won't go for them if they're a waste. I'm hoping I don't have to spend sm81 money (more than $500/pr) for new overhead mics.

[trevoire520]

To be honest I wasn't too fond of the C430's. They have no real low end to them, pretty bright all in. Great if you want to just capture cymbals in you OH's or use them as close mic's for china's or whatnot. Not alot of use for them other than that though.
Not used SM81's so I can't comment on them unfortunately.

Thats not a setup I've tried but I'll certainly give it a go. I've been much happier with my overhead sounds recently as I've bought a couple of sheets of plywood to put under the kit. Really helps give the drums more life.

[MichaelH]

I've used the CAD m179's in ORTF about 3 feet above the kit, placed behind the drummers head, and angled towards the kit, and gotten a better ratio of Drums/cymbals lately. Actually Its been my favorite drum sound I've gotten. I normally stick to fatHeads for OH, but I've been wanting a bit more detail. This technique worked for me, my room isn't so sweet either.

[mikethedrummer]

have you tried xy mic placement? or micing the kit from behind the drummer?

dumb question, but why dont you just close mic the drums and leave the cymbals to the overheads? this paves the way for overproduction, i.e eq, comp on every track. parallel compression on the overheads might be the secret youve been missing

if it was a jazz drummer theres no way youd be having this problem but with most rawk, the drummers just beat things as loud as they can with no concern for the different dynamics of each piece of the drum kit. the snare and china will bury any tom any day if hit equally as hard. to cope you need to isolate each piece and mix the kit in your daw

[BLUElightCory]

What kind of cymbals are we talking about? You'll get a whole lot more of the harsh-cymbal-thing if you've got a drummer with Z Customs versus a drummer with K or A Customs, for instance.

And a lot of it DOES come down to how drummers mix themselves. If you have a drummer who bashes his cymbals but doesn't hit the drums very hard, you're setting yourself up for a cymbal-heavy drum sound from the get go. If this is a problem, work with the drummer on balancing themselves - usually you can find a sweet spot where the drums and cymbals have a good balance and the performance still contains energy. It just takes practice and is part of being a MUSICIAN.

[Full Clip Audio]

I cant praise the Earthworks enough for overheads. Throw them into a pair of P-1s and you are set!