(quiet) acoustic guitar mic advice.

[calbruc]

Hi all,
I would greatly appreciate some advice regarding what microphone/microphones would be appropriate for my recording needs.
I primarily intend to record solo acoustic guitar and classical guitar work with occasional vocals. To record in stereo a friend recommended using a small condenser mic, such as the nt5 or se4, placed at the neck and a large diameter condenser mic placed towards the bridge. The large condenser mic could then be used for vocals (although obviously not at the same time.) Does this configuration sound appropriate? Would I be better off going down the matched stereo small condenser route?
My budget all told is about £500 ($850) and its also worth noting that I have the opportunity to buy an AT4047 for half its RRP. I Love the AT4047 on vocals but have no experience of it on guitars.
Finally I should point out that I have a rode m3, which has 20db self noise, and find it problematic for recording, in that I have a delicate (quiet) finger-picking style, so mics with a low self noise are a what I’m looking for.
Many thanks for any help in advance,
Cal.

[corey.schroeder]

Honestly, I would check out the Blue Baby Bottle.

Though it tapers off around 200Hz, its (in my opinion) an extremely warm mic. It has a present midrange that gives you a nice full/rich sound without sounding too muddy.

Paired with the right pre, you can get a well rounded yet crispy sound out of this mic.
The self noise level is only 5.5dB (super quiet) and its only $500.

Thats my vote.. Ive really liked mine on everything I've put it on.

[RBowlin]

I've had great luck with the AKG C451b on acoustic. If you can get your hands on one, I'd suggest you give it a try.

-Rich

[calbruc]

thanks guys.
I'm definately drawn to Blue's mics (low prices, low self noise, nice sound) both the baby bottle and the blue bird. But what do people think of stereo recording with a small condensor large condensor combination ? I'm obviously inexperienced but to me it sounds like a good idea but wrong at the same time?

[TurboJets]

A 4047 paired with a 4041 is super nice. I personally love stereo mic'ing ac guitars with LDC + SDC config's for the exact reason you mention calbruc.

A pair of 4041's are nice and the 4033 is fantastic for ac guitar as well.

But if you have the inside on a half-price deal for a 4047 I would at least grab that up first. Totally one of my favorite flavors for ac guitar.

[calbruc]

Thanks for input TurboJets.
Yep, pretty set on the 4047. I love its top end and 'character' and I'd be stupid not to take up the offer. not sure about SDC mic though. I have virtualy no experience with them.
Would it be a fair generalisation to say that small diaphram condensor mics have higher levels of self noise than their large diaphram cousins?

[blueshowdoyoudo]

If you go for a multipattern large diaphragm condenser instead of the 4047 (like a CAD M179 or AT4050), you'd have the option of doing M/S stereo on the guitar as well as the stereo technique you already mentioned.

Just an idea.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by calbruc

Thanks for input TurboJets.
Yep, pretty set on the 4047. I love its top end and 'character' and I'd be stupid not to take up the offer. not sure about SDC mic though. I have virtualy no experience with them.
Would it be a fair generalisation to say that small diaphram condensor mics have higher levels of self noise than their large diaphram cousins?

Audio Technica SDC's have no self-noise just like the other AT mics.

My 4041 is as quiet as my 4033. You can't even tell they're on except for ambient noise you hear in the room, especially with the 4041 because they pickup every single transient so fast and with such detail it's freaky. For that reason alone I recommend the 4041 for classical/nylon guitars...but others will have varying opinions on that. I know most people prefer LDC for classical/nylon guitars. The other SDC I like so much is of course the 012 which so many recommend, especially with the Joly mod which is well-worth the money. Everybody's got different opinions of course, all valid, all based on their experience and taste. And it really comes down to taste. Do you like the darker/intimate sound of a 4047 or the open but meaty sound of a 4050 or the open transparent clarity of a 4033?...all 3 share AT's characteristic smoothness when coupled with a fast preamp.

[bradley]

The cad m179 works well for me ou acoustic. I have used it both spaced (with beyer mc930) and in middle and side with beyer mc930 and lauten clarion. The cad is really cheap and fairly low self noise. I would go with at4047 and cadm179

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Audio Technica SDC's have no self-noise just like the other AT mics.

My 4041 is as quiet as my 4033. You can't even tell they're on except for ambient noise you hear in the room, especially with the 4041 because they pickup every single transient so fast and with such detail it's freaky. For that reason alone I recommend the 4041 for classical/nylon guitars...but others will have varying opinions on that. I know most people prefer LDC for classical/nylon guitars. The other SDC I like so much is of course the 012 which so many recommend, especially with the Joly mod which is well-worth the money. Everybody's got different opinions of course, all valid, all based on their experience and taste. And it really comes down to taste. Do you like the darker/intimate sound of a 4047 or the open but meaty sound of a 4050 or the open transparent clarity of a 4033?...all 3 share AT's characteristic smoothness when coupled with a fast preamp.

I think the 4033 works so well on acoustic guitar because it's NOT a large diaphragm condenser mic. The same reason it can sound shrill on vocals makes it a great clear crisp guitar mic.

[Karloff70]

Good suggestions already. How about a mix .....a 4047. Vocal covered. A Cad M179. Now you can do the guitar M/S. And maybe check out sahiaman's little blondie mics. Listen to the files in the thread around somewhere. You'd fit a pair of those into your budget as well = covered. So guitar either M/S 4047/Cad or little blondie/Cad, or little blondie pair and Cad on guit and 4047 on vox.....bla bla bla.....effective set of mics!! For very little.......and all really quiet.

[Audiop]

I have a pair of AT4033 and I think they suck for AG. A nylon strung possibly but on steel strings? No thanks! :-)

Also it's to noisy for soft picking. A much better mic for guitar (and lots of other sources) is Line Audio CM3. The latter having higher resolution, more neutral sound and less noise.

Funny we can write so differently about the same gear.


/Peter

[calbruc]

Thanks so much for help guys. I feel much clearer about what I should be doing.
cal

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by Audiop

A much better mic for guitar (and lots of other sources) is Line Audio CM3...
/Peter

That mic doesn't cost too much at all! It's really a good mic?? I need a new sdc, and I was thinking about spending $800(US), so just wondering...

[lobsty]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Audio Technica SDC's have no self-noise just like the other AT mics.

I wouldn't go that far... in fact I'd say the opposite. I have a couple of 4041s but I gave up using them on acoustic guitar and quiet instruments because they were often too noisy.

Recording classical guitar can be tricky... a lot of cheaper mics have a lot of high end that can sometimes just pick up too much finger noise and string attack. Having said, that a gentle eq roll of on the highs can help

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by rkopald

That mic doesn't cost too much at all! It's really a good mic?? I need a new sdc, and I was thinking about spending $800(US), so just wondering...

More or less on the level of Earthworks and Sennheiser.

I have MKH8040, MKH8020 and QTC1 and the CM3 plays in the same league IMO. Getting my second pair soon.


/Peter

[willsing]

I have pretty much the same recording needs as you. What I have found best for my fingerpicking acoustic guitar is a stereo set up with an AT4050 at the lower bout, around the bridge (search around for your sweet spot) and a Kel HM7U at the fingerboard, at about the joint, to the 12th fret, about eight inches to a foot away works depending on your taste. Before the Kel, I had an Oktava MK 012, that was very nice. Kel won though. Tried an AT4060, the acoustic guitar did not like it as much as the AT4050.

For the classical, I do not yet have the holy grail mic, but after trying all of my mics, the AT4060 really brought out the sweetness of the cedar top classical. The tone sounded oh so sweet. I have been round and round on that one, and so far, I like the 4060 the best (of what I have). It likes the MK 012 too.
I have found that while I like to record steel string acoustic in stereo, I have not been to keen on the nylon string in stereo. I get just the tone I want with one mic and play around with the spacial aspect in my DAW.

For what that's worth, hope that helps.

Regards,
Will

[fufaso]

Originally Posted by Audiop

More or less on the level of Earthworks and Sennheiser.

I have MKH8040, MKH8020 and QTC1 and the CM3 plays in the same league IMO. Getting my second pair soon.


/Peter

Please correct me if I am wrong as I'm not sure I fully understand sensitivity ratings, but they seem to have a pretty low sensitivity rating (6mV/PA) when comparing to the MC930 (30mV/PA).

I have a c1000 that has the same sensitivity as the CM3, and find that I don't get enough level out of it when recording guitar (quiet) - so would the same hold true on the CM3s?

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by lobsty

I wouldn't go that far... in fact I'd say the opposite. I have a couple of 4041s but I gave up using them on acoustic guitar and quiet instruments because they were often too noisy.

That's what I thought at first with the 4041 until I realized it was actually picking up the noise of the air conditioner (which was almost inaudible). I shut down the AirCon and that changed everything.

No self-noise in my personal experience and freakishly fast, picks up every little thing. In that regard it may be undesirable for some.

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by Audiop

More or less on the level of Earthworks and Sennheiser.

I have MKH8040, MKH8020 and QTC1 and the CM3 plays in the same league IMO. Getting my second pair soon.


/Peter

Wow. Really?? That's crazy to me. But then again, I fall into the "If it costs THAT much money, it's GOT to be amazing!" category.
Good thing I'm broke!

[bradley]

I just want to clarify incase any recording novices are reading: the mics being discussed all have SOME self noise. Impossible for them to have NO self noise. I think what is meant in reference to some mics is that the self noise is too low to be an issue and that it is usually something else causeing noise. Like an AC unit or a fan in another room etc. SDC's tend to have more self noise than LDC's (but not always) yet SDC's are very often the choice for recording guitar. Sennheiser MKH series are superb as are schoeps but not cheap!

I find the beyer mc930 pair are excellent for guitar but the cad m179 is also great and has a little less self noise. The mc930 send out a lot of signal and tend to require less preamp gain than most other mics.

[stafs]

Beyer MC930 is excellent on accoustic guitars! I just can't stop prase these mics. Check this mic out and i'm sure, You will love it. A combo of 4047 and 930 on accoustic will give You awesome results. You can get warmth and body from 4047 and super smooth detailed sound from 930. I'm using both mics all the time, and beyer is my 'go to' mic for accoustic, and 4047 is main vocal mic.

[fufaso]

Originally Posted by stafs

Beyer MC930 is excellent on accoustic guitars! I just can't stop prase these mics. Check this mic out and i'm sure, You will love it. A combo of 4047 and 930 on accoustic will give You awesome results. You can get warmth and body from 4047 and super smooth detailed sound from 930. I'm using both mics all the time, and beyer is my 'go to' mic for accoustic, and 4047 is main vocal mic.

Are you using 1 mc930 with the 4047?

If so, in the mix, are you panning the 2 tracks at all?

What I'm aiming to do, is isolate the bass strings with 1 mic, and the treble strings with the other, and then pan them in opposite directions (ie: bass strings panned left, treble strings panned right) and do the opposite on a 2nd guitar. Is this possible if the combo of 1 mc930 and 1 4070?

[lobsty]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

That's what I thought at first with the 4041 until I realized it was actually picking up the noise of the air conditioner (which was almost inaudible). I shut down the AirCon and that changed everything.

No self-noise in my personal experience and freakishly fast, picks up every little thing. In that regard it may be undesirable for some.

I get where you're going with that but I still think the 4041s are noisier than a lot of other mics and as bradley said - no mic has no self noise, everything gives off something, I just think that that 4041s are too noisy for really quiet instruments.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by rkopald

Wow. Really?? That's crazy to me. But then again, I fall into the "If it costs THAT much money, it's GOT to be amazing!" category.
Good thing I'm broke!

Yes! Cost is not a performance parameter.


/Peter

[nosebleedaudio]

Check out the new 4051b if you can do an A/B...
the 4051a on AC Gtr is very nice IMHO..Thru my mic pre...Ha..

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Check out the new 4051b if you can do an A/B...
the 4051a on AC Gtr is very nice IMHO..Thru my mic pre...Ha..

A TapeOp shootout recently chose the 4021 over the 4051 if I'm not mistaken. Surprised me. The panel chose the 4021 "easily" over the 4041 too.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

A TapeOp shootout recently chose the 4021 over the 4051 if I'm not mistaken. Surprised me. The panel chose the 4021 "easily" over the 4041 too.

Which one? a or b?

[stafs]

Originally Posted by fufaso

Are you using 1 mc930 with the 4047?

If so, in the mix, are you panning the 2 tracks at all?

What I'm aiming to do, is isolate the bass strings with 1 mic, and the treble strings with the other, and then pan them in opposite directions (ie: bass strings panned left, treble strings panned right) and do the opposite on a 2nd guitar. Is this possible if the combo of 1 mc930 and 1 4070?

I tend not to pan when recording with LDC and sdc. Of course - it all depends . To me panned guitar sounds best when recorded with two 930's.

About panning: i think You'll get better results with panning one take (both mics) to left side, and other to right.

[fufaso]

Originally Posted by stafs

I tend not to pan when recording with LDC and sdc. Of course - it all depends . To me panned guitar sounds best when recorded with two 930's.

About panning: i think You'll get better results with panning one take (both mics) to left side, and other to right.

Just ordered the 930s so I'm looking forward to getting them and trying out a few different ideas.

I usually sing while playing - can I expect a lot of vocal bleed into the 930s?