why dynamic over condenser for bad rooms?

[MikeFFG]

Okay...so all the time on this site I hear that if you have a bad room, you should buy a dynamic mic over a condenser...I think I understand why this is the thinking, but I don't understand, or at least, I don't believe that this is correct.

Condensers are MUCH more sensitive than dynamics. This I give you...I noticed this the first second I plugged in a condenser when I was 17.

The noise is therefore, of course, louder...

But if the NOISE is louder, then the VOCAL signal is louder as well. If the polar patterns of the two , dynamic vs condenser, are both cardiod, then they have the same amount of room in them.

That is, the vocal to room ratio has to be the same. It isn't possible to be any different. If my direct vocal is 100-dBspl...and my reflections are like I dunno 60 dBspl...than my 'vocal to reflection ratio' is 10 to 6...how could this change because of a new mic with the same polar pattern?

Sure, if my mic was more sensitive, the room would be recorded much louder...but that would also HAVE to mean the vocal is recorded that much louder as well. You turn one up...you turn the other...plain and simple.

You can't just increase the noise and not the vocal.

The only POSSIBLE reason this could be is because of self-noise, but then that would not be a room issue...just a condenser issue.

I don't see how this could possibly be wrong, but I'm open to criticism and someone proving me wrong. I just hear this so much and don't agree. I also don't want to hear 'i know from experience dynamics are better here' or something like that, because, although I trust most of your opinions and ears, that would be like telling me that your opinion is that you've experienced an by aliens when science disagrees with their existence lol...tutt

[ohmicide]

condensers pick up the bad room's reverberation which makes the recordings sound boomy, muddy and buried under the mix

a bad room will make a u47 sound like a cheap unusable microphone

[Corran]

I could be wrong but:

It's not simply that the condenser is louder, it also does a better job picking up sound. Say you have a noisy computer, that soft noise will not physically move the dynamic mic's diaphragm, while the condenser mic will pick it up.

Look at the sensitivity specs of a dynamic vs. a condenser. The condenser's sensitivity is much, much higher. This isn't just a factor of "loudness."

[MikeFFG]

for the first guy...ya a bad room will make a u47 sound bad...but your answer doesnt address the difference between the condenser and the dynamic...

The second...your answer does make some sense...the sensitivity...but it still doesnt make sense that it would be more sensitive to noise, and less sensitive to the main sound...you know what I mean?

it is more sensitive...but it is the same sesnsitivity to the source as it is to the reverberation...right?

[MikeFFG]

if my computer is making 45 dbSPL...at the same exact distance and angle from my SM57 as my U47...and the SM57 is the same distyance from my mouth as the U47...how could the computer possibly be louder in one than the other unless the polar pattern is different?

[MikeFFG]

unless the first guy is suggesting that since a U47 will sound shitty in a shitty room...and an SM57 will sound shitty in teh same room...why use the more expensive mic? lol i suppose that could be an argument against a condenser since they are more expensive...but I don't think that really is a good argument.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

for the first guy...ya a bad room will make a u47 sound bad...but your answer doesnt address the difference between the condenser and the dynamic...

The second...your answer does make some sense...the sensitivity...but it still doesnt make sense that it would be more sensitive to noise, and less sensitive to the main sound...you know what I mean?

it is more sensitive...but it is the same sesnsitivity to the source as it is to the reverberation...right?

how does my answer not make sense???

a dynamic wont sound muddy and boomy in a bad room because it rejects most of it. it's the same reason why they use them on stage. they rejects most the surrounding sounds except for what's right in front of them.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

unless the first guy is suggesting that since a U47 will sound shitty in a shitty room...and an SM57 will sound shitty in teh same room...why use the more expensive mic? lol i suppose that could be an argument against a condenser since they are more expensive...but I don't think that really is a good argument.

no a sm57 will reject the boomy reverberations thus not sounding like shit

the u47 will pick all the waves bouncing off all your untreated walls and it will sound like a big muddy mess

[Corran]

The condenser diaphragm, while only moving bare nanometers, will respond to sound quicker and more accurately. A dynamic element will not. You are physically moving the coil in a dynamic mic with your voice a much greater distance. The measly few db from a computer or sound in another room will not move the coil and therefore will not be recorded.

Anyone know if this is correct? That's how I've always assumed it worked.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by alehoe

how does my answer not make sense???

a dynamic wont sound muddy and boomy in a bad room because it rejects most of it. it's the same reason why they use them on stage. they rejects most the surrounding sounds except for what's right in front of them.

THe rejection has nothing to do with the type of microphone and only to do with the polar pattern...

A cardiod polar pattern is a cardiod polar pattern no matter the type of microphone. They both reject the same.

A dynamic is used in live applicatinos because it is MUCH more durable and able to withstand higher SPLs...not because of the rejection.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by Corran

The condenser diaphragm, while only moving bare nanometers, will respond to sound quicker and more accurately. A dynamic element will not. You are physically moving the coil in a dynamic mic with your voice a much greater distance. The measly few db from a computer or sound in another room will not move the coil and therefore will not be recorded.

Anyone know if this is correct? That's how I've always assumed it worked.

This actually does make a bit of sense. Again, Alehoe, I am not trying to insult you or saying I don't understand what you're trying to say, but it doesn't quite convince me.

So corran you are trying to say that although the same amount of air, and same ratio s I was saying of main signal to reverbant, is getting to the mic...maany of the reverberations won't be strong enough to move the coil of the dynamic like they would be of the condenser...this makes a lot of sense actually.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by alehoe

no a sm57 will reject the boomy reverberations thus not sounding like shit

the u47 will pick all the waves bouncing off all your untreated walls and it will sound like a big muddy mess

After Corrans answer, yours makes more sense and I didn't meana to say you were wrong...but the explanation wasn't there and that was what I wanted! The way I was seeing it was that they both would pick up the shitty walls in an equal ratio...

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

THe rejection has nothing to do with the type of microphone and only to do with the polar pattern...

A cardiod polar pattern is a cardiod polar pattern no matter the type of microphone. They both reject the same.

A dynamic is used in live applicatinos because it is MUCH more durable and able to withstand higher SPLs...not because of the rejection.

dynamics are used on stage because of their ability to reject the surroundings thus having less bleed and low feedback

[Corran]

I could be wrong...I'd love to know whether I was right or not.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Corran

I could be wrong...I'd love to know whether I was right or not.

wether you are right or wrong, that does sound like a good explanation as to why a dynamic rejects so much of the surroundings

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by alehoe

you are completely wrong

dynamics are used on stage because of their ability to reject the surroundings thus having less bleed and low feedback

COMPLETELY wrong? I think that is a bit of an overstatement...

You can slam a dynamic mic on a stage without hurting it and you can drop a condenser from 3 feet and destroy it...this has NOTHING to do with the reason rock stars who swing mic stands and cables on stage use dynamics?

And they can handle higher spls...this is why we use dynamics more often on drums such as toms, snares and kicks than condensers...i mean yhou can use some condensers on them, but often with pads and many you can't use on drums at all closer than a few feet...

Based on the fact that, as Corran stated as to WHY they may 'reject' their surroundings more, is also true and that makes your (Alehoes) true as well...It's not that I disgree with you and I didnt want to fight! I just mean you didn't explain it more than "this is the way it is"...and I wanted an explanation.

Certainly part of the reason they are used in live situations then, i suppose, are because of rejection...but the conotation of 'rejection' to me, is based on polar pattern...hypercardiod rejects more than omni for instance...know what I'm saying? However this reasoning, based on sensitivity, makes more sense.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

COMPLETELY wrong? I think that is a bit of an overstatement...

You can slam a dynamic mic on a stage without hurting it and you can drop a condenser from 3 feet and destroy it...this has NOTHING to do with the reason rock stars who swing mic stands and cables on stage use dynamics?

And they can handle higher spls...this is why we use dynamics more often on drums such as toms, snares and kicks than condensers...i mean yhou can use some condensers on them, but often with pads and many you can't use on drums at all closer than a few feet...

Based on the fact that, as Corran stated as to WHY they may 'reject' their surroundings more, is also true and that makes your (Alehoes) true as well...It's not that I disgree with you and I didnt want to fight! I just mean you didn't explain it more than "this is the way it is"...and I wanted an explanation.

Certainly part of the reason they are used in live situations then, i suppose, are because of rejection...but the conotation of 'rejection' to me, is based on polar pattern...hypercardiod rejects more than omni for instance...know what I'm saying? However this reasoning, based on sensitivity, makes more sense.

yeah i know what was an overstatement but what i meant to say is that the main reason they are used on stage is because of rejection

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by alehoe

yeah i know what was an overstatement but what i meant to say is that the main reason they are used on stage is because of rejection

LOL i noticed you deleted part of your post I think...no problemo! I appreciate all your posts and inputs! you both definitely made me think more about this subject.

This is why this site is great though...if I'm on my own theorizing about these things...I can easily be wrong!

[MikeFFG]

btw, at least that first song on your myspace, was pretty sick! A new '300' trailer or something equivalent lol?

[Chris Lago]

I think the best way to answer your question is to record a dynamic and condenser in a bad room, voila! You'll understand why after that.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I think the best way to answer your question is to record a dynamic and condenser in a bad room, voila! You'll understand why after that.

lol I suppose you're right...Ears should rule everything lol!...but I guess I just needed more explanation than that!

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

btw, at least that first song on your myspace, was pretty sick! A new '300' trailer or something equivalent lol?

haha nah i wasn't going for the nine inch nails sound at all, i was just trying out some new ideas a few days ago and decided to put it up so i could have an original mix on there rather than just remixes :p

but thanks man!

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by alehoe

haha nah i wasn't going for the nine inch nails sound at all, i was just trying out some new ideas a few days ago and decided to put it up so i could have an original mix on there rather than just remixes :p

but thanks man!

lol when you have deep synth basses and electronic music that is upbeat I suppose it is hard to get away from the NIN sound, at least in my mind...being obsessed with NIN as I am.

I didn't mean to say it wasn't original lol...but just that it's in the same genre at least.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

lol when you have deep synth basses and electronic music that is upbeat I suppose it is hard to get away from the NIN sound, at least in my mind...being obsessed with NIN as I am.

I didn't mean to say it wasn't original lol...but just that it's in the same genre at least.

haha no problem, i payed 250 bucks for a vip seat for when they played in west palm beach a few months ago. it was the best show i've ever been to and of course i got a kick out of it being their first show of their last tour before hiatus. i still can't believe they played the songs they played, so many classic that hadn't been performed in years.

and i didn't take it like that at all. i just called it original mix to oppose all the remixes. that's how most electronic musicians difference their remixes from the songs they write.

but yeah, it leans more to the dark industrial type of genre that nine inch nails is known for although i was going for a more electronic sound like that of innerpartysystem

[Chris Lago]

If you like NIN, go on my myspace and listen to "Between Your Legs". I am a huge NIN fan as well.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by chrislago

If you like NIN, go on my myspace and listen to "Between Your Legs". I am a huge NIN fan as well.

wow! great track!

[Happy Musicfan]

Think of an air conditioner unit. While it's overall sound does register in the 1khz to 16khz area, the predominant annoying sound comes from the compressor's low frequency *constant* resonance. I'm talking about frequencies as low as 60hz down to 20hz. The larger dynamic range of a condenser picks up the ultra-low bass vibrations (including motors of refrigerators and large vehicles) which can spoil a recording. ---------- Some other annoying household sounds and environmental sounds happen on the OTHER end of the frequency range, where dreaded hiss occurs. 16-20khz. This ultra-treble area is ALSO detected more readily by condensors. ---------It's these extreme ends of the 20hz-20khz frequency range which are easily transferred on to a recording by the mic which is inherently more mechanically capable and sensitive. ----------Most musical sounds don't register as readily in/at those extremes. The dynamic mic almost always cuts out the extreme lows, and often the extreme highs as well.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by alehoe

wow! great track!

I just got approached 2 weeks ago by an A&R from Atlantic because of that song

[Matti]

Originally Posted by Corran

The condenser diaphragm, while only moving bare nanometers, will respond to sound quicker and more accurately. A dynamic element will not. You are physically moving the coil in a dynamic mic with your voice a much greater distance. The measly few db from a computer or sound in another room will not move the coil and therefore will not be recorded.

Anyone know if this is correct? That's how I've always assumed it worked.

Yes, in a dynamic / moving coil mic you litterally move larger mass opposed to a condencer mics thin skin as the only thing that moves, hence they are less sencitive to quiet sounds.

Matti

[Happy Musicfan]

Dynamic mics are less sensitive to quiet sounds and less sensitive to the extreme ends of the 20hz-20khz frequency range.