why dynamic over condenser for bad rooms?

[jcatena]

Why so many people can't resist the temptation of answering without having idea, or much worse, of correcting a right answer with a major stupidity?
Please, don't feel offended, you should feel ashamed instead.
Mic sensitivity is the voltage it outputs per sound pressure unit (Pa, uPa).
If a mic with a sensitivity of 2mV/uPa needs a preamp gain of 40dB, one with 20mV/uPa will need 20dB, and after the preamp, everything will be the same (being everything else equal).
After the level is normalized, if a sound of 85 dB SPL produces 0 dB, for example, one of 35 dB SPL will produce -50 dB. Regardless of the mic used.
The capacitive capsules give so small output (low sensitivity) that they need a preamp in the mic itself to avoid degradation in the cable. And once they need a preamp, the output level is chosen to maximize SNR though the cable. The more gain in the mic, the less in the preamp.
What do you do writting if you don't even understand what shoud be as clear as 2+2=4 for a sound noob? Couldn't you at least think or read a book or something before repeating the same major stupidity the 5th time?
I know, I shouldn't be rude, but this is too much for me. When someone that doesn't even understand what gain is, corrects an engineer in software, electronics and sound, and insists in his stupidity again and again after being politely explained, the SNR here becomes lower than that of the signal being received now from the Voyager 2.
Now keep writing your book of your new and unknown science, sure it will be a best seller among many people here.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by jcatena

Why so many people can't resist the temptation of answering without having idea, or much worse, of correcting a right answer with a major stupidity?
Please, don't feel offended, you should feel ashamed instead.
Mic sensitivity is the voltage it outputs per sound pressure unit (Pa, uPa).
If a mic with a sensitivity of 2mV/uPa needs a preamp gain of 40dB, one with 20mV/uPa will need 20dB, and after the preamp, everything will be the same (being everything else equal).
After the level is normalized, if a sound of 85 dB SPL produces 0 dB, for example, one of 35 dB SPL will produce -50 dB. Regardless of the mic used.
The capacitive capsules give so small output (low sensitivity) that they need a preamp in the mic itself to avoid degradation in the cable. And once they need a preamp, the output level is chosen to maximize SNR though the cable. The more gain in the mic, the less in the preamp.
What do you do writting if you don't even understand what shoud be as clear as 2+2=4 for a sound noob? Couldn't you at least think or read a book or something before repeating the same major stupidity the 5th time?
I know, I shouldn't be rude, but this is too much for me. When someone that doesn't even understand what gain is, corrects an engineer in software, electronics and sound, and insists in his stupidity again and again after being politely explained, the SNR here becomes lower than that of the signal being received now from the Voyager 2.
Now keep writing your book of your new and unknown science, sure it will be a best seller among many people here.

Thanks Dad, for letting us all know that you are not only smarter than us, but you can humiliate us at the same time.

Look, the question was:

Why are dynamic mics better than condenser mics in a bad room?

The Answer: Get a Dynamic mic and a condenser mic and record something in a bad room, you'll know and understand why, done!

Simple question, simple answer, and I didn't humiliate anyone in the process.

I teach people on a regular basis, and the best way for them to learn is to get them to discover things by themselves. You push them in the right direction and they do the rest of the work.

Did you win a Grammy for knowing the facts? LOL. Oh right, you need to actually use the gear.

[GYMusic]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

For rejecting ambience and noise what matters is the pickup pattern, not whether the microphone is dynamic or condenser. Condenser microphones tend to have a much better HF response than dynamics, but that can be dialed back with an EQ to have the same (poor) HF response.

Since the question involves a "bad room" I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that fixing the room is a much better solution than applying band-aids.

--Ethan

Thank you Ethan, I was about ready to pull my hair out and blow a gasket.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Look, the question was:

Why are dynamic mics better than condenser mics in a bad room?![/I]

On the other hand the OP was challenging that generality, and in the process we got to see what the variables are, the whys' when it is true- and in fact why when it isn't. The cool thing about knowing the rules is knowing where you get to break them.
Along the way though are a slew of posts that from what I can see (or ever heard of anyway) appear to be based on a misunderstanding -sensitivity.
But just to be sure, I did the Slutty thing and tried it.
EV635 vs QTC1, about 500Hz tone, from very quiet (matched by ear very low in headphones and well off the scale below -40 on the meter) to maxed out at about +15db (100 or so SPL on the RatShack meter). Sure enough they track as equally as I can measure.

[Martin Kantola]

Good question!

Don't believe it's because of a "threshold" on a dynamic microphone, such as a point where it starts registering sounds and everything below gets rejected. As it's been said, less sensitive just needs more gain.

Think the answer to the original question might be that because dynamic microphones (usually) need more pre-amp gain for the same signal, we tend to use them mostly for very close miking (eating the microphone as an extreme example). Which gives a larger "music-to-room" ratio of course.

But we could do the same with condensers, all we need is good pop screens.

In fact, a good condenser would probably color your room sound in a less ugly fashion because of the more uniform pickup pattern over the whole spectrum.

And yes, as Ethan said, fix the room, it's fairly easy!

Martin

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by jcatena

The capacitive capsules give so small output (low sensitivity) that they need a preamp in the mic itself to avoid degradation in the cable. And once they need a preamp, the output level is chosen to maximize SNR though the cable. The more gain in the mic, the less in the preamp.

This part is not 100% correct, if you're saying what I think you are.

The output signal from a typical condenser capsule circuit is actually fine with regards to level and doesn't need any amplification, but it's very high impedance and therefore "weak" and can't drive any cables or even survive outside the microphone without a good "power boost" to make it much lower impedance and "stronger".

Speaking for myself, I will never stop reading and learning, think it's essential for good audio engineering, and I have such a long way to go yet.

Martin

[Benmrx]

The off axis coloration of condensors is MUCH more pronounced. Generically speaking you get more room sound. That in addition to a few other things like transient response all relate to dynamic mics being more "forgiving".

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

The off axis coloration of condensors is MUCH more pronounced.

Really? Interesting, can you prove it somehow? :-)

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Generically speaking you get more room sound.

Again, it's easy to just say a thing like that, but more difficult to demonstrate or back up with theory. Can you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Benmrx

That in addition to a few other things like transient response all relate to dynamic mics being more "forgiving".

Think most would agree that dynamics are more forgiving as you say, and that the transient response is slower. But it would be interesting to learn more about the "other" differences.

Martin

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan

Those are the 2 main reasons. It's *that* simple. There are 2 main reasons why a dynamic cardioid mic sounds better in a crappy room............... 1) narrower frequency response + 2) lower sensitivity to sound. *** It's *that* simple. ***

There's no need to try to arbitrarily change the identity of condenser mics to *prove* they *can* be *like* dynamic mics. Their identities are indeed *different* because the intended design and configuration is indeed, *different*.There are 2 main reasons why a dynamic cardioid mic sounds better in a crappy room............... 1) narrower frequency response + 2) lower sensitivity to sound. It's *that* simple.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by Martin Kantola

Really? Interesting, can you prove it somehow? :-)



Again, it's easy to just say a thing like that, but more difficult to demonstrate or back up with theory. Can you elaborate?



Think most would agree that dynamics are more forgiving as you say, and that the transient response is slower. But it would be interesting to learn more about the "other" differences.

Martin

I can only prove it by asking you to put up a dynamic, then a condensor and see for yourself. And, that off axis sound/pickup is exactly HOW you get more ROOM sound. Bad room = Bad reflections, some mics also have more "pleasing" off-axis coloration than others. That's the theory. The session I did last weekend I purposly asked the female singers to sing facing eachother instead of at the mic because the off-axis sound fit that particular part/song much bettter.

Other differences would be the mic's sensitivity, frequency response, polor pattern, and probably 10 others I can't think of at the moment. But like anything, there's ALWAYS exceptions. Sometimes I'm still amazed at how tight some of the patterns are on some small diaphram condensors.

[cyjanopan]

Thats quite funny... I just tested how condenser (4050 set on cardioid) vs hypercardioid ribbon reject sound from behind and with matched levels when hitting drumsticks in front of them, it seems that there are not much difference between two of them when sound is from behind, I can post samples.

[cyjanopan]

Here`s non scientific test, 4 microphones aligned, facing same wall, one LDC (4050), one SDC (c42), one ribbon (m320) and one dynamic (MD421).
First are some hits in front of them, later behind them.

Results are interesting
Its impossible to match levels perfectly becouse those mics responds to transients differently and have different characteristics, but anyway

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1081966/test.zip