advice with tape recorder purchase

[beatifictatter]

hey,
im desperate to get some tape feel in to my mixes,(thick, glued, warm.....all those words people get it in the neck on here for using when they say they're 'seeking such and such' a sound.....) ive tried various plugs (tessla, vintage warmer etc) and as many have said on here, it just doesnt seem to get me where i want to be.....
ive started looking at reel to reel machines and doing a little reading, but i dont drive and have very little money....so its pretty much ebay. but they seem like a novice's nightmare when choosing the right one...especially without being able to go try them first. and i only have between £50 and £100......i know thats probably a totally unrealistic budget.
what i basically want to know is is there a 'best kept secret' tape (is a good quality cassette deck totally out of the question???) recorder that budget home producers have found that will get me some decent results until i can afford something better....im just planning on sending finished mixes out of the box through the tape then back in.....so i only need a stereo machine, not multitrack....
any advice would be greatly appreciated, ive been looking around for a few weeks now and just getting less and less sure what to do....
cheers

[SMX_Dizzy]

Originally Posted by beatifictatter

hey,
im desperate to get some tape feel in to my mixes,(thick, glued, warm.....all those words people get it in the neck on here for using when they say they're 'seeking such and such' a sound.....) ive tried various plugs (tessla, vintage warmer etc) and as many have said on here, it just doesnt seem to get me where i want to be.....
ive started looking at reel to reel machines and doing a little reading, but i dont drive and have very little money....so its pretty much ebay. but they seem like a novice's nightmare when choosing the right one...especially without being able to go try them first. and i only have between £50 and £100......i know thats probably a totally unrealistic budget.
what i basically want to know is is there a 'best kept secret' tape (is a good quality cassette deck totally out of the question???) recorder that budget home producers have found that will get me some decent results until i can afford something better....im just planning on sending finished mixes out of the box through the tape then back in.....so i only need a stereo machine, not multitrack....
any advice would be greatly appreciated, ive been looking around for a few weeks now and just getting less and less sure what to do....
cheers

Have you thought of a 2-input cassette unit, like a Tascam Porta 02, to run your output to tape, and send the tape output back in?

[beatifictatter]

haha, id be tempted to try for purely sentimental reasons...that was my first multitrack! i dont remember the quality being that great though? and surely a better 'less features/higher quality' standard tape deck out there that someones stumbled across? probably wishful thinking though, looks like i'll have to save a few hundred quid up and go reel to reel......

[BOWIE]

Originally Posted by beatifictatter

haha, id be tempted to try for purely sentimental reasons...that was my first multitrack! i dont remember the quality being that great though? and surely a better 'less features/higher quality' standard tape deck out there that someones stumbled across? probably wishful thinking though, looks like i'll have to save a few hundred quid up and go reel to reel......

I'm in the same situation. I miss that tape character so badly but simply can't afford to buy a proper machine in this economy. I'm always disappointed by plug-ins too, so that doesn't help. I frequently see old reel to reel machines on craigslist for under $100 but I don't know enough about the various brands to even begin messing with that.

[mobius.media]

Definitely not cassette. And if you're buying a reel deck, then you have to worry about if the heads, capstan/motor, and amp are still good. Even if you get lucky you still have to buy a $200 mrl alignment tape and do regular maintenance and expected repairs.

It's a lifestyle as much as a sound. You have to put a lot of education/time/money in to make it work.

[beatifictatter]

i know what you mean bowie, ive always thought my first multitrack recordings had a charm ive never been able to mimic....i went from a tascam portastudio straight to a roland vs-80 (or named something like that) and ive missed that sound ever since.....
reel to reel sounds like it would be something i couldnt realistically maintain right now....think i'll keep an eye for a high end cassette multitrack, even if its just for little demos.....i just want that sound again....but at the same time im trying to build a little studio setup that i can learn on with a mind to one day making some money out of it....and i dont think tape is that important to a lot of clients....i guess you can always get it put through tape at the mastering stage.....something i think our band will do.

[Shatterglass]

My best-kept secret is my old (mid-'80s) Sony VHS Hi-Fi video deck. (I don't have the model number handy, but it's the one with separate left and right input gain knobs, peak meters and a headphone jack with volume knob.) That was my "mastering deck" back in the day, and it did just what you said you were looking for: it added the "glue" at the final stage... that certain something that made the mix sound better than it did coming out of the mixer.

Yes, I realize that VHS Hi-Fi and analog tape are totally different things, but still... the sound was there.

[rufus13]

The "hi-fi" tracks on a VHS recorder are "quiet" because of the dbx-like companding. They pump.

I used to use a VCR for time shifting radio. Worked fine and CHEEEEP.

Cheers

[smoke]

Originally Posted by Shatterglass

My best-kept secret is my old (mid-'80s) Sony VHS Hi-Fi video deck. (I don't have the model number handy, but it's the one with separate left and right input gain knobs, peak meters and a headphone jack with volume knob.) That was my "mastering deck" back in the day, and it did just what you said you were looking for: it added the "glue" at the final stage... that certain something that made the mix sound better than it did coming out of the mixer.

Yes, I realize that VHS Hi-Fi and analog tape are totally different things, but still... the sound was there.

Wow. VHS?

Can you tell us more?

[videoracer]

Simply go on ebay and pick up a half-track deck. Even a decent quarter-track will do. You can get them for peanuts. Run your mixdowns or selected tracks through one and you're done. It may be somewhat of a risk but for what they're going for it doesn't hurt.

Sometimes the solenoid transports tend to "stick". I have that problem right now with my old Teac 3300SX half track. The solenoids have to be cleaned somehow (not sure) so they kick in when you hit play, etc.

This is especially so with the break solenoids. I had a feed reel solenoid stick once and when I hit the stop button coming out of FF I had one hell of a tape shower!

So some potential problems, but hey, you never know. Go have a look:
reel to reel tape recorder, great deals on Reel-to-Reel Tape Recorders, Parts Accessories on eBay!

Here's a quarter-track version of my deck supposedly fully serviced:
TEAC 3300S 10" 3 Head/Motor Reel to Tape Recorder Nice! - eBay (item 140333778090 end time Jul-23-09 19:14:58 PDT)

They're nice when they work! :-D

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by smoke

Wow. VHS?

Can you tell us more?

Believe it or not VHS was a pretty popular mixdown format for the low-budget folks in the 90's. This is back when the big guys were using DAT, and well before the average person was recording music on their computer. MUCH better sound quality than a cassette.

I'm not sure if they still do, but I know for a FACT that the flaming lips were still using VHS to play their backing tracks for live shows on tour at least up until 2003 or so.

[Shatterglass]

Originally Posted by smoke

Wow. VHS?

Can you tell us more?

Disclaimer: I'm not much of a tech, so any of this might be wrong.

Yeah, the deck I had (have, actually) is a Sony SLV-676UC. The thing about that particular deck is that it has separate and reasonably precise left and right gain controls and really nice input meters... no automatic level control, so no unwanted messing with your dynamic levels on the way in.

Apparently VHS Hi-Fi converted the audio signal to FM (or AFM) and recorded it "embedded" in the video signal. (There's a mono, linear audio track available as well that runs on the edge of the tape.) If I record with no video signal, I just get a black screen. You also got a nice timecode track, so you could set a marker at, say, 17:06 for your next track and skip there.

Coming from a reel-to-reel/cassette background, out of habit I'd hit the input meters at +10dB... you know, to get that great tape saturation sound and drown out (nonexistent) tape hiss. I don't know the details, but it sounded good; you couldn't distort the input.

I'm sure others here know more. I just know VHS Hi-Fi was my poor man's DAT machine.

[JoeM'Geek]

I see the first post is a bit old- but hopefully this isn't too late.

I've got an Akai Gx210D...domestic reel to reel. It was 40 quid off ebay, and does the job great. I run individual tracks out of my mbox, send them to that and because there's a switch that allows you to monitor what's coming off tape as you record- you simultaneously record THAT back into protools, and aside from having to slide the track a bit to make up for the head gap, you should be perfectly in sync. Probably cheaper than a saturation plugin, and way more fun!

So yeah- you want to make sure you've got 3 heads, and off head monitoring. Here are some machines that can do that

Sony TC366/377
Akai 2000 + the one up there ^
Most Ferrographs
Most Vortexions

Loads more too...For what it's worth I've never had to do anything to mine, and I've had a few...oh, I cleaned the heads once. Obviously maintenance is an issue at pro-studio level, but if you're going for an effect- you probably don't need to get too fussy. A lot of those machines were bulletproof!

[Brad McGowan]

A year ago I bought an Otari MX55 used on Craigslist for $200. It came with an MRL tape, a take up reel, and about 8 boxes of 1/4" tape (7" reels). So basically I bought an MRL tape and got the deck and tape for free. These deals are out there. You just have to keep your eyes peeled.

If you can save up a little more money then I would look for an Otari MX5050, MX55, or MX55. They can easily be had for around $250.

In the meantime, if any of you guys are craving the sound of tape, I'd be more than happy to bounce mixes to one of my four decks (using Mytek 8x192 converters) and send you 96kHz WAVs . PM me to discuss details/rates. I have an MCI JH-110A, Studer A807, Otari MX55, and modded Otari MX5050.

Brad

[videoracer]

Hey JoeM'Geek, if you're going to multitrack through the deck, you're gonna need to sync the DAW to it with a sync tone. Otherwise you're going to lose sync over time due to wow and flutter, unless you keep cutting up and repositioning a track down the timeline in your DAW (assuming it doesn't have continuous playing throughout the track). That can get old real quick!

With a two-channel deck that only affords you one track at a time. So if you need to record a stereo track you'll need a four-track to keep sync.

[JoeM'Geek]

Originally Posted by videoracer

With a two-channel deck that only affords you one track at a time. So if you need to record a stereo track you'll need a four-track to keep sync.

You'd think there'd be a problem with sync, wouldn't you?- maybe I'm just lucky or something, but I've not had any problems. Just record, then drag the entire waveform. Job done. Does that sound unlikely? Maybe I'll record an example/test or something

I guess the amount of drift/wow/flutter is so tiny that it's not noticable. Perhaps it would be if you were trying to parallel with the original track (can't think why you would)- but I'm always replacing the track- or using it as a slapback delay.

You get that I'm recording onto the tape at the same time I'm recording back into 'tools, right? (sorry if I'm restating the obvious here)

[videoracer]

I got the impression you're recording THROUGH tape onto Pro Tools. Surprised you haven't drifted.

[bentends]

Summing to videotape? Holy flashback! I used a Beta machine in the 90's to great results. Definitely better fidelity than VHS, just don't slam the mix to tape. When you cross the threshold w/ Beta you don't get natural tape compression, you get unpleasing distortion. But up until that point things sound pretty good. And the bonus w/ mixing to video cassette is you can record whatever visual cues you want to accompany the mix. Timecode, mix snapshots, soap operas, whatever! Instant music video anyone?

[JoeM'Geek]

Originally Posted by videoracer

I got the impression you're recording THROUGH tape onto Pro Tools. Surprised you haven't drifted.

Nah

It's like-

1/ Record track to protools

2/ Send track out of protools to Akai210

3/ Flip Akai to 'monitor off tape'

4/ Feed Akai back into fresh protools channel



So steps 2-4 are happening at the same time. I guess as the gap between the tape heads is so small- you don't notice any flutter. Also- if there IS wobble, it can't really be built on because you're recording back in at the same time. Even if you switched to a different speed in the middle of recording- there'd just be that section that would be in the wrong place- and what comes after will be correct. So no accumulative drift

[videoracer]

OK, I see what you're doing, and yes, that will keep sync other than the head gap distance. However you're going through an A/D-D/A-A/D hit there. Probably not that big a deal, especially if you're in hi-bit.

If you wanted to avoid that A/D-D/A-A/D hit, you would need to go THROUGH the tape deck to the A/D. THEN you would need the sync box.

[alkooloid]

Or mult! That's what I just tried -
works great. I scored my MCI JH110-C for $300.00.
It takes up room I barely have, but when I get the tape guy around here to set it up, it should be sweet. But I gotta tell you, I'm not sure it's that much better than my vocal chain straight in. That said, I'm drooling to try mixes to it. That seems like a winner. I'm sure if I had a nice 2" 16 it would smoke to track to - tape cost, though... bummer.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by alkooloid

when I get the tape guy around here to set it up, it should be sweet. But I gotta tell you, I'm not sure it's that much better than my vocal chain straight in.

Try hitting it (fairly hard) with sources that have hard/fast transients. Like drums, spiky guitars or some acoustics for a more obvious effect.

Also I know some folks that do indeed "mult" the signal, so the chain goes:

Preamp out ---> A/D
Mult of preamp out --> Tape (off repro head) --> A/D

That way you end up with 2 versions of the same source and you can choose which one to use, while ditching both the sync problem and the issue of multiple conversions. It gets a little hairy when you're talking about 8-12 tracks of drums (which would = 16 - 24 tracks total), but you get the idea.

[videoracer]

Other than sacrificing a channel, tape sync is no issue at all. Did it for years back in the 80s and 90s using nothing more than a Cooper PPS-1 (which I still have!).

[RTR]

Originally Posted by videoracer

Other than sacrificing a channel, tape sync is no issue at all. Did it for years back in the 80s and 90s using nothing more than a Cooper PPS-1 (which I still have!).

+1..we used one to sync our ensoniq keyboard/sampler/sequencer to!!

[alkooloid]

If i had sixteen tracks of good tape machine, I'd just record to it and then
dump it in and keep going. A basic band take that way is so nice.
But I've been working real hard to get some goo on the way in with
pres, eqs, ribbons and compressors, so things are pretty chunky
and sweet these days. I have a BLA modded MOTU 24 i/o
and I mix through a Folcrom and a wide range of old school
pres and compression. But tape on the end of that....

Thanks for all the advice guys!

[videoracer]

>>If i had sixteen tracks of good tape machine, I'd just record to it and then dump it in and keep going.<<

FOSTEX B16 16 Track Reel to Reel Tape Deck on eBay (end time 01-Aug-09 18:29:04 BST)

[beatifictatter]

i forgot about this thread, thanks for all the advice. i've been looking in the meantime but nothing in the right price bracket has come up close enough for me to buy.
if i was to buy something like the b16 could i still do the simultaneous 'to daw, to machine, off monitor head, to daw....then adjust latency/nudge the clip' thing?
or would i be limited to recording 16 tracks on the machine then getting them in to the pc afterwards?
im not sure which would be better for my workflow, im thinking maybe just get a half-track and go the first route if i have to choose between the two methods....the vhs thing sounds interesting too....

[beatifictatter]

in fact, with something like the b16, could i record 8, (or 16, or however many ins and outs the machine has) tracks in to my daw first....
then route them all out and through the b16 or similar machine, and simulatneously record off the repro heads back in to the daw? or is this 'monitor' function something only found on stereo half-tracks?
would be great if i could get a load of tracks done at a time.....record everything in the daw, make sure im happy with the takes, the tracks out seperate outs of my soundcards and in and out of seperate ins and outs of the machine back to the daw on new tracks? is this possible on any 8 or 16 track reel to reels? cheers

[noah330]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Believe it or not VHS was a pretty popular mixdown format for the low-budget folks in the 90's. This is back when the big guys were using DAT, and well before the average person was recording music on their computer. MUCH better sound quality than a cassette.

I'm not sure if they still do, but I know for a FACT that the flaming lips were still using VHS to play their backing tracks for live shows on tour at least up until 2003 or so.

Yep - I remember doing this all the time. My dad had a Panasonic Hi-Fi VCR. I would switch it over to 'Line' and run my Portastudio into it.

Worked great for the time.