Login / Register
 
PT LE? no plug-in compensation? WHAT?
New Reply
Subscribe
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#1
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #1
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
PT LE? no plug-in compensation? WHAT?

Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!
#2
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
awakened's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 786

awakened is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!
Mellowmuse Software

prob solved.


do you think they'd give you the whole shebang for that cheap?

is shebang even a word?!
#3
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 
sardi's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,492

sardi is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!
No you're not, but you're probably the only one to have never used he search button.

Sorry, but this discussion has been done to death. In fact, I don't even think you need to search. There's probably at least one thread in each section of the forum about this that's probably in the first page - even in the political section!!
__________________
Available & forthcoming releases:

http://www.myspace.com/sardisonics
#4
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #4
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

dannygold is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!
Most plugs don't cause latency, if they do their work within one buffer cycle... obviously some do. Sure, latency comp would be nice. But I don't think it makes LE worthless.
__________________
Danny Gold
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#5
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #5
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannygold View Post
Most plugs don't cause latency, if they do their work within one buffer cycle... obviously some do. Sure, latency comp would be nice. But I don't think it makes LE worthless.
Hey Danny Gold you teach at NEia don't you? I'm a student there...

Anyways, I certainly was exagerating with the term "worthless" and I don't appreciate Sardis comment since I did search and was unable to find a sufficient answer thank you.

I am definitely going to check out the Mellowmuse software. I tend to see a lot of plugs that cause delay though Danny. Especially since I use a Liquid Mix and a UAD card...those cause significant delay and even other regular RTAS plugs I find cause a few samples of a delay...though I could be wrong I suppose...

I am going to re-'try' PT again, and I haven't given up on it. I was looking for more constructive answers than Sardi's

I appreciate the rest of your answers though and they have made me reconsider it a bit. Thanks!
#6
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #6
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

dannygold is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
Hey Danny Gold you teach at NEia don't you? I'm a student there...

Anyways, I certainly was exagerating with the term "worthless" and I don't appreciate Sardis comment since I did search and was unable to find a sufficient answer thank you.

I am definitely going to check out the Mellowmuse software. I tend to see a lot of plugs that cause delay though Danny. Especially since I use a Liquid Mix and a UAD card...those cause significant delay and even other regular RTAS plugs I find cause a few samples of a delay...though I could be wrong I suppose...

I am going to re-'try' PT again, and I haven't given up on it. I was looking for more constructive answers than Sardi's

I appreciate the rest of your answers though and they have made me reconsider it a bit. Thanks!
Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, C, D, E or G at NEIA) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#7
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #7
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannygold View Post
Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, D, E or G at NEAI) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.
Thanks! I appreciate the help. I'll check it all out and re-consider my PT LE situation lol. Maybe my music production toolkit 2 wasn't all for naught.
#8
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #8
Lives for gear
 
therecordinghous's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Fort Wayne, IN.
Posts: 789

therecordinghous is offline
once you get used to the ATA plugin, it is VERY nice. i am also able to use external hardware with PT LE now. even though i probably could justify the expense of pro tools HD now, i have chosen not to go that route. especially with my UAD 2 card.
__________________
Lynn Graber - The Recording House
Studio and Mobile Recording, Fort Wayne, IN.

The Kingstown Project
#9
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #9
Gear addict
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 335

videoracer is offline
Unless you plan to work in professional environments the use Pro Tools at gunpoint, don't waste your time with that crippleware. Sonar is good, check out Reaper too. Doesn't cost you anything to download and use Reaper to check it out to see if you like it.
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#10
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #10
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
So I appear to have been mistaken. I was under the impression that more plug-ins caused a delay than actually do. Certainly the UAD and LM ones do but I thought a lot more plugs did as well. Hmmm

I checked out the mellowmuse software and it does look good but not perfect. I'd think it'd still get a bit annoying after awhile. Also, it seems there is only 'Aux' groups 1-5...does anyone ever run out of aux groups and once you do how do you deal with that?

Now I'm stuck with a $500 Sonar producer edition that I'm trying to learn...and many hundreds of dollars worth of PT 8 with music toolkit 2 that I am really fast at and know well. Argh I guess I wasted my money on one of them Oh well, live and learn! I always tend to be too impulsive on these things.

I'm starting to really like SOME things about sonar, but I'm so quick on PT its frustrating. Maybe I can find some reasons to use both. Unfortunately, you can't transfer the Sonar license...
#11
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #11
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,738

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoracer View Post
Unless you plan to work in professional environments the use Pro Tools at gunpoint, don't waste your time with that crippleware. Sonar is good, check out Reaper too. Doesn't cost you anything to download and use Reaper to check it out to see if you like it.
Reaper.


ugh...although I'm slowly turnign !!


I only ue LE for electronic stuff so the delay doesn't really become an issue. I've never recorded drums on LE - that stays in HD !
#12
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,861

PoorGlory is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post

I checked out the mellowmuse software and it does look good but not perfect. I'd think it'd still get a bit annoying after awhile. Also, it seems there is only 'Aux' groups 1-5...does anyone ever run out of aux groups and once you do how do you deal with that?
The "Auxes" in the Mellowmuse ATA are not quite the same as "auxes" in Pro Tools. When Mellowmuse says "auxes", they're actually referring to how many layers of groups there are in your mix. For instance, if you send all your guitar tracks to a stereo Aux track in Pro Tools, you would have an instance of the ATA on each guitar track and have them set to "Audio". Then you would have an instance of ATA on your stereo guitar Aux track, and you would set that ATA to "Aux 1". If you send that same Aux track to yet another aux track (before it gets sent to the master), the next Aux track must have an instance of ATA on it that is set to "Aux 2", because thats the second "Aux" that the audio hits before the master track.

If you do the same thing to all your drum tracks, you would still select "Aux 1" on the Mellowmuse plug inserted on your Drum bus. You don't have to use seperate Auxes in Mellowmuse for different instruments/tracks because "Aux 1" is only telling the software that it is the first layer of bussing going on. So theoretically you could have an entire mix, where every instrument is sent only to it's corresponding bus (guitar bus, drum bus, vocal bus, etc), and you would never need to select "Aux 2" on any ATA instance. You would only do that if any bus was being sent to yet another Aux track.

I see no reason you'd ever need more than 5 auxes in the Mellowmuse software. Honestly, the ATA was a bitch to learn at first (I learned on the beta version, which was somewhat more of a pain in the ass from the newest one), but once you understand it, it's a breeze.

The only cons are: 1) it eats up a plugin slot on every track; and 2) you have to unmute all tracks, mute time-based effects, and sometimes temporarily change your routing to ping (I mix OTB, so this is especially true for me.)
#13
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #13
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

dannygold is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
So I appear to have been mistaken. I was under the impression that more plug-ins caused a delay than actually do. Certainly the UAD and LM ones do but I thought a lot more plugs did as well. Hmmm
I looked at a session in HD today with this issue in mind... ren eq didn't appear to cause latency, rec comp did (according to the latency comp display at the bottom of the mixer) So I imagine it's a mixed bag. You can always nudge tracks back to compensate or use time adjuster in LE if you don't want to get mellomuse... some of us remember the days before auto laency comp! I'd certainly NEVER let it stop me from getting work done. Yeah, it's inconvenient... but so are a lot ot things in the world of recording. Ultimately we just need to deal with the tools at hand.
#14
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #14
Lives for gear
 
jeremyglover's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: berlin
Posts: 1,548
My Recordings/Credits

jeremyglover is offline
[QUOTE=sardi;4344677]No you're not, but you're probably the only one to have never used he search button.

HA HA.

a viral trend on GS!

#15
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #15
Lives for gear
 
mikethedrummer's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,092

mikethedrummer is offline
without proper compensation is this delay really significant? are the phase issues really that noticeable?
#16
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #16
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 274

craigmorris74 is offline
I've found using the UAD-1 and 2, the Mellowmuse plugin is very difficult to get to work right. In fact, I've never gotten it to work perfectly. Still a hassle and I won't use LE unless I have to. They could charge a few hundred more, include delay compensation, and then I'd give them a shot.
Craig
#17
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #17
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 104

bgroup is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannygold View Post
I looked at a session in HD today with this issue in mind... ren eq didn't appear to cause latency, rec comp did (according to the latency comp display at the bottom of the mixer) So I imagine it's a mixed bag. You can always nudge tracks back to compensate or use time adjuster in LE if you don't want to get mellomuse... some of us remember the days before auto laency comp! I'd certainly NEVER let it stop me from getting work done. Yeah, it's inconvenient... but so are a lot ot things in the world of recording. Ultimately we just need to deal with the tools at hand.
No disrespect intended, but it's a HUGE deal IMO. Since pretty much every decent piece of software available today has ADC except PT LE, things like nudging tracks shouldn't even be discussed anymore. I spend exactly equal amounts of time in PT LE and Cubase 4, and once you've done any significant amount of mixing with ADC, LE is not "inconvenient", it's ridiculous. And try using the UAD plugs - it's unusable without ADC, SERIOUS nudging or having the same plugs on every track. Not bashing PT here, I quite like it in a lot of ways, but in a modern world where more and more mixing is being ITB, this IMO is not a "feature" but an essential part of software. I too remember when I mixed ITB without ADC... but that was years ago, and I had no alternative software that gave it to me... it's hard for me to believe that it's even still an issue. Frankly, if PT HD wasn't industry standard, it's my belief that LE would have died a long time ago. I guess if you live in a PT-only world you deal with it, but if you spend any amount of time using the alternatives that are out there, you realize what a bad, out of date, seriously crippled piece of software LE really is... I believe Digi knows this but seem very cavalier about their market share... the "major label" of music software?? Rant over... sorry if I've offended anyone...
__________________
Brent Bodrug
Producer-engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com
#18
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #18
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 104

bgroup is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikethedrummer View Post
without proper compensation is this delay really significant? are the phase issues really that noticeable?
Yes! If you use UAD plugs at all it's almost as if you've delayed the track by a 16th note!!
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#19
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #19
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
That's it exactly. It's not that I CAN'T deal with the LE latency ie nudging, bussing, ATAing etc...It's just that every other piece of software offers it, so I don't see how it can be all that difficult of a feature to include.

The other issue is I didn't even realize this for several years while I was using PT. I had no clue other DAWs offered this. It also never occurred to me that a few samples of a delay was a big deal because I was 'untrained' and unaware of phase issues. I certainly knew liquid mix was a big delay but that was obvious. I wonder how many of my early mixes could have been significantly enhanced by just a few nudges!

I also can't imagine I'm an exception. Any 'newbie' to recording, starting out in PT, would probably be in the same boat as I was.

I do miss the smart tool though!
#20
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #20
Lives for gear
 
rhythmtech's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin , Ireland
Posts: 2,189

rhythmtech is offline
@ OP

I use UAD2 and liquidmix in LE without mellow muse. its quite simple really.

use UAD as channel inserts. set UAD card to live mode = 0 latency.

then use liquid mix on your mix busses.

if you want to do it the other way (uad on mix busses) remember that you have 32 liquidmix channels. just add 1 to each audio track and a digi delay set to 4096 samples if you go over 32.

that way, although you still have latency, its spread evenly and doesnt matter.
#21
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #21
Gear maniac
 
Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 283

Send a message via AIM to Jonesfromindia Send a message via MSN to Jonesfromindia
Jonesfromindia is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannygold View Post
Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, C, D, E or G at NEIA) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.
uad has auto latency adjustment...love it!
#22
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #22
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

dannygold is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFFG View Post
That's it exactly. It's not that I CAN'T deal with the LE latency ie nudging, bussing, ATAing etc...
Start your mixes in LE and finish in HD? No one is ever in Audio C at AI except a couple beat makers... and me but I'll leave if you need it since students ALWAYS come first :-) Do "walk in" time there if you're able (not sure what the requirements are in terms of what classes you must have taken).
MikeFFG
Thread Starter
#23
4th July 2009
Old 4th July 2009
  #23
Lives for gear
 
MikeFFG's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Boston, MA

Thread Starter
MikeFFG is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannygold View Post
Start your mixes in LE and finish in HD? No one is ever in Audio C at AI except a couple beat makers... and me but I'll leave if you need it since students ALWAYS come first :-) Do "walk in" time there if you're able (not sure what the requirements are in terms of what classes you must have taken).
Haha that's not a bad idea. It's true C and E are almost always open. I should definitely take advantage of those when I can. I'm in Rec 2 with Matthew Ellard and Hard Disk with Sean McClaughlin among others. I got plenty of time...and I'll be there for at least another year. Using the studios is definitely a possibility.
#24
5th July 2009
Old 5th July 2009
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,632

Jonboy79 is offline
It's never caused me much of a headache, most of the plugs I use have either not latency or just a couple samples of latency. The next time you want to start a PTLE bashing thread to gain some attention, why don't you just see if has already been discussed, because I can almost promise you whatever gripe you have against PTLE it's probably already been discussed ad nauseum.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
hearmeshimmer / Music Computers
3
panhead / Geekslutz forum
2
kushan_ku / Expert Question & Answer Archives
34

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.