PT LE? no plug-in compensation? WHAT?

[MikeFFG]

Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!

[awakened]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!

Mellowmuse Software

prob solved.


do you think they'd give you the whole shebang for that cheap?

is shebang even a word?!

[sardi]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!

No you're not, but you're probably the only one to have never used he search button.

Sorry, but this discussion has been done to death. In fact, I don't even think you need to search. There's probably at least one thread in each section of the forum about this that's probably in the first page - even in the political section!!

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

Am I the only one that thinks PT LE is worthless because it does not include plug-in delay compensation? EVERY other DAW does! (I think) I switched to SONAR. I used PT for years, and I have to admit I love PT's interface, gui, shortcuts, etc. But no plug-in compensation?! How many god damn busses do I have to setup to use this thing? I don't even wanna think about how many hours of my life I've wasted setting up busses in PT LE because of plug-in delays. Even a few samples screws with the phase hardcore. Whats the deal? If they included this I would be PT all the way!

Most plugs don't cause latency, if they do their work within one buffer cycle... obviously some do. Sure, latency comp would be nice. But I don't think it makes LE worthless.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Most plugs don't cause latency, if they do their work within one buffer cycle... obviously some do. Sure, latency comp would be nice. But I don't think it makes LE worthless.

Hey Danny Gold you teach at NEia don't you? I'm a student there...

Anyways, I certainly was exagerating with the term "worthless" and I don't appreciate Sardis comment since I did search and was unable to find a sufficient answer thank you.

I am definitely going to check out the Mellowmuse software. I tend to see a lot of plugs that cause delay though Danny. Especially since I use a Liquid Mix and a UAD card...those cause significant delay and even other regular RTAS plugs I find cause a few samples of a delay...though I could be wrong I suppose...

I am going to re-'try' PT again, and I haven't given up on it. I was looking for more constructive answers than Sardi's

I appreciate the rest of your answers though and they have made me reconsider it a bit. Thanks!

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

Hey Danny Gold you teach at NEia don't you? I'm a student there...

Anyways, I certainly was exagerating with the term "worthless" and I don't appreciate Sardis comment since I did search and was unable to find a sufficient answer thank you.

I am definitely going to check out the Mellowmuse software. I tend to see a lot of plugs that cause delay though Danny. Especially since I use a Liquid Mix and a UAD card...those cause significant delay and even other regular RTAS plugs I find cause a few samples of a delay...though I could be wrong I suppose...

I am going to re-'try' PT again, and I haven't given up on it. I was looking for more constructive answers than Sardi's

I appreciate the rest of your answers though and they have made me reconsider it a bit. Thanks!

Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, C, D, E or G at NEIA) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, D, E or G at NEAI) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.

Thanks! I appreciate the help. I'll check it all out and re-consider my PT LE situation lol. Maybe my music production toolkit 2 wasn't all for naught.

[therecordinghous]

once you get used to the ATA plugin, it is VERY nice. i am also able to use external hardware with PT LE now. even though i probably could justify the expense of pro tools HD now, i have chosen not to go that route. especially with my UAD 2 card.

[videoracer]

Unless you plan to work in professional environments the use Pro Tools at gunpoint, don't waste your time with that crippleware. Sonar is good, check out Reaper too. Doesn't cost you anything to download and use Reaper to check it out to see if you like it.

[MikeFFG]

So I appear to have been mistaken. I was under the impression that more plug-ins caused a delay than actually do. Certainly the UAD and LM ones do but I thought a lot more plugs did as well. Hmmm

I checked out the mellowmuse software and it does look good but not perfect. I'd think it'd still get a bit annoying after awhile. Also, it seems there is only 'Aux' groups 1-5...does anyone ever run out of aux groups and once you do how do you deal with that?

Now I'm stuck with a $500 Sonar producer edition that I'm trying to learn...and many hundreds of dollars worth of PT 8 with music toolkit 2 that I am really fast at and know well. Argh I guess I wasted my money on one of them Oh well, live and learn! I always tend to be too impulsive on these things.

I'm starting to really like SOME things about sonar, but I'm so quick on PT its frustrating. Maybe I can find some reasons to use both. Unfortunately, you can't transfer the Sonar license...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by videoracer

Unless you plan to work in professional environments the use Pro Tools at gunpoint, don't waste your time with that crippleware. Sonar is good, check out Reaper too. Doesn't cost you anything to download and use Reaper to check it out to see if you like it.

Reaper.


ugh...although I'm slowly turnign !!


I only ue LE for electronic stuff so the delay doesn't really become an issue. I've never recorded drums on LE - that stays in HD !

[PoorGlory]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

I checked out the mellowmuse software and it does look good but not perfect. I'd think it'd still get a bit annoying after awhile. Also, it seems there is only 'Aux' groups 1-5...does anyone ever run out of aux groups and once you do how do you deal with that?

The "Auxes" in the Mellowmuse ATA are not quite the same as "auxes" in Pro Tools. When Mellowmuse says "auxes", they're actually referring to how many layers of groups there are in your mix. For instance, if you send all your guitar tracks to a stereo Aux track in Pro Tools, you would have an instance of the ATA on each guitar track and have them set to "Audio". Then you would have an instance of ATA on your stereo guitar Aux track, and you would set that ATA to "Aux 1". If you send that same Aux track to yet another aux track (before it gets sent to the master), the next Aux track must have an instance of ATA on it that is set to "Aux 2", because thats the second "Aux" that the audio hits before the master track.

If you do the same thing to all your drum tracks, you would still select "Aux 1" on the Mellowmuse plug inserted on your Drum bus. You don't have to use seperate Auxes in Mellowmuse for different instruments/tracks because "Aux 1" is only telling the software that it is the first layer of bussing going on. So theoretically you could have an entire mix, where every instrument is sent only to it's corresponding bus (guitar bus, drum bus, vocal bus, etc), and you would never need to select "Aux 2" on any ATA instance. You would only do that if any bus was being sent to yet another Aux track.

I see no reason you'd ever need more than 5 auxes in the Mellowmuse software. Honestly, the ATA was a bitch to learn at first (I learned on the beta version, which was somewhat more of a pain in the ass from the newest one), but once you understand it, it's a breeze.

The only cons are: 1) it eats up a plugin slot on every track; and 2) you have to unmute all tracks, mute time-based effects, and sometimes temporarily change your routing to ping (I mix OTB, so this is especially true for me.)

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

So I appear to have been mistaken. I was under the impression that more plug-ins caused a delay than actually do. Certainly the UAD and LM ones do but I thought a lot more plugs did as well. Hmmm

I looked at a session in HD today with this issue in mind... ren eq didn't appear to cause latency, rec comp did (according to the latency comp display at the bottom of the mixer) So I imagine it's a mixed bag. You can always nudge tracks back to compensate or use time adjuster in LE if you don't want to get mellomuse... some of us remember the days before auto laency comp! I'd certainly NEVER let it stop me from getting work done. Yeah, it's inconvenient... but so are a lot ot things in the world of recording. Ultimately we just need to deal with the tools at hand.

[jeremyglover]

[QUOTE=sardi;4344677]No you're not, but you're probably the only one to have never used he search button.

HA HA.

a viral trend on GS!

[mikethedrummer]

without proper compensation is this delay really significant? are the phase issues really that noticeable?

[craigmorris74]

I've found using the UAD-1 and 2, the Mellowmuse plugin is very difficult to get to work right. In fact, I've never gotten it to work perfectly. Still a hassle and I won't use LE unless I have to. They could charge a few hundred more, include delay compensation, and then I'd give them a shot.
Craig

[bgroup]

Originally Posted by dannygold

I looked at a session in HD today with this issue in mind... ren eq didn't appear to cause latency, rec comp did (according to the latency comp display at the bottom of the mixer) So I imagine it's a mixed bag. You can always nudge tracks back to compensate or use time adjuster in LE if you don't want to get mellomuse... some of us remember the days before auto laency comp! I'd certainly NEVER let it stop me from getting work done. Yeah, it's inconvenient... but so are a lot ot things in the world of recording. Ultimately we just need to deal with the tools at hand.

No disrespect intended, but it's a HUGE deal IMO. Since pretty much every decent piece of software available today has ADC except PT LE, things like nudging tracks shouldn't even be discussed anymore. I spend exactly equal amounts of time in PT LE and Cubase 4, and once you've done any significant amount of mixing with ADC, LE is not "inconvenient", it's ridiculous. And try using the UAD plugs - it's unusable without ADC, SERIOUS nudging or having the same plugs on every track. Not bashing PT here, I quite like it in a lot of ways, but in a modern world where more and more mixing is being ITB, this IMO is not a "feature" but an essential part of software. I too remember when I mixed ITB without ADC... but that was years ago, and I had no alternative software that gave it to me... it's hard for me to believe that it's even still an issue. Frankly, if PT HD wasn't industry standard, it's my belief that LE would have died a long time ago. I guess if you live in a PT-only world you deal with it, but if you spend any amount of time using the alternatives that are out there, you realize what a bad, out of date, seriously crippled piece of software LE really is... I believe Digi knows this but seem very cavalier about their market share... the "major label" of music software?? Rant over... sorry if I've offended anyone...

[bgroup]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer

without proper compensation is this delay really significant? are the phase issues really that noticeable?

Yes! If you use UAD plugs at all it's almost as if you've delayed the track by a 16th note!!

[MikeFFG]

That's it exactly. It's not that I CAN'T deal with the LE latency ie nudging, bussing, ATAing etc...It's just that every other piece of software offers it, so I don't see how it can be all that difficult of a feature to include.

The other issue is I didn't even realize this for several years while I was using PT. I had no clue other DAWs offered this. It also never occurred to me that a few samples of a delay was a big deal because I was 'untrained' and unaware of phase issues. I certainly knew liquid mix was a big delay but that was obvious. I wonder how many of my early mixes could have been significantly enhanced by just a few nudges!

I also can't imagine I'm an exception. Any 'newbie' to recording, starting out in PT, would probably be in the same boat as I was.

I do miss the smart tool though!

[rhythmtech]

@ OP

I use UAD2 and liquidmix in LE without mellow muse. its quite simple really.

use UAD as channel inserts. set UAD card to live mode = 0 latency.

then use liquid mix on your mix busses.

if you want to do it the other way (uad on mix busses) remember that you have 32 liquidmix channels. just add 1 to each audio track and a digi delay set to 4096 samples if you go over 32.

that way, although you still have latency, its spread evenly and doesnt matter.

[Jonesfromindia]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Hey Mike. I think you'll like the mellowmuse plug. BTW next time you're in a studio with Pro Tools HD (Audio A, C, D, E or G at NEIA) check out the latency readout at the bottom of the mixer (probably have to turn it on under view menu>mixer window)... that'll give you a good idea what plugs cause latency and how much. Like I said I'm pretty sure it's not all of them do... but it makes sense the LM and UAD might since there's a physical round trip there.

uad has auto latency adjustment...love it!

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by MikeFFG

That's it exactly. It's not that I CAN'T deal with the LE latency ie nudging, bussing, ATAing etc...

Start your mixes in LE and finish in HD? No one is ever in Audio C at AI except a couple beat makers... and me but I'll leave if you need it since students ALWAYS come first :-) Do "walk in" time there if you're able (not sure what the requirements are in terms of what classes you must have taken).

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Start your mixes in LE and finish in HD? No one is ever in Audio C at AI except a couple beat makers... and me but I'll leave if you need it since students ALWAYS come first :-) Do "walk in" time there if you're able (not sure what the requirements are in terms of what classes you must have taken).

Haha that's not a bad idea. It's true C and E are almost always open. I should definitely take advantage of those when I can. I'm in Rec 2 with Matthew Ellard and Hard Disk with Sean McClaughlin among others. I got plenty of time...and I'll be there for at least another year. Using the studios is definitely a possibility.

[Jonboy79]

It's never caused me much of a headache, most of the plugs I use have either not latency or just a couple samples of latency. The next time you want to start a PTLE bashing thread to gain some attention, why don't you just see if has already been discussed, because I can almost promise you whatever gripe you have against PTLE it's probably already been discussed ad nauseum.