need help minimizing bleed on a drumkit

[cannibalbritney]

ok well right now i have my drumkit in my family room *yea the tv, windows coffee table the whole deal*

in any case i have 8 mics, room is about 15ft x 18ft decent sized... but its very open sounding... im micing the rack tom with a 57, and the floor tom with a 57. snare is a 57, bass is beta 52, and 2 over heads, 2 room mics.

im getting the worst bleed from my snare, and tom mics... i have thought of getting a pad on each of these mics but i dont know if thats necessary... any suggestions on minimizing bleed or tutorial on compressing/eq'ing it out perhaps?

any info is greatly appreciated.

[alehoe]

you should post some clips!

the lack of treatment in the room is probably causing most of the bleed

you can try putting the sm57s about an inch from the snare and toms and lowering the gain on the preamps so you can get a more direct sound without picking up the rest of the kit as much

also no matter what you do you'll always get some bleed in the mics, but that's why we have gate plugins

[Jonesfromindia]

Aural•Xpanders Foam Isolation Kit - Acoustic sound isolation products from Auralex Acoustics.

that is a start. works pretty good for the price.

[Les]

Hi
If it's the typical snare bleeding into the tom mic...

I find that it's not so much the amount of bleed but rather the fact that the tom mic is delayed a millisecond or two compared to the snare mic. This can make phasy comb filter effects.

I like to put in a short delay on all the mics except overheads. Actually I use different delay in left and right channels. That way I can vary the delay to crank out comb effects.

So you might try delaying snare a couple milliseconds compared to toms.
Vary the delay and you'll hear the comb effect come in and out.

Granted, with variable left and right delays on all mics except overheads (I don't use room mics) it gets complicated. But very versatile.

Les
L M Watts Technology

[bulls hit]

Bleed can be your friend.

You could double your snare track, gate one of them and compress the other and bring up the compressed track under the gated one.

The tom mics can be just muted until you need them

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by cannibalbritney

ok well right now i have my drumkit in my family room *yea the tv, windows coffee table the whole deal*

in any case i have 8 mics, room is about 15ft x 18ft decent sized... but its very open sounding... im micing the rack tom with a 57, and the floor tom with a 57. snare is a 57, bass is beta 52, and 2 over heads, 2 room mics.

im getting the worst bleed from my snare, and tom mics... i have thought of getting a pad on each of these mics but i dont know if thats necessary... any suggestions on minimizing bleed or tutorial on compressing/eq'ing it out perhaps?

any info is greatly appreciated.

Compressing will only make the bleed louder..
Eq' may sound fake. But use low and high-pass filters to cut the unnecessary freqs.

Take your time and work on placements.. A pad just reduces the volume by -10db..
On snare? use tight cardioid patterns to avoid hihat bleed. And the rest, you just have to live with bleed. Sometimes it makes your drumkit sound like one big instrument..


If you want totally silence on the toms. sample the tom before tracking. then put it back when done, it may sound fake. but it's total silence between the hits.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

And the rest, you just have to live with bleed. Sometimes it makes your drumkit sound like one big instrument..

.

Good bleed is a lovely thing. I used to get awful bleed with Sm57's- and gating/filter eq's are all bandaids that make the kit sound disparate and cluncky - not smooth and unified as 1 instrument.

Gotta get the mikes with isolation/good bleed- . Since using a M201 on snare (hypercardoid) and Cad M179's on tom (hypercardoids) bleed is much improved and the bleed that is there is good bleed making the kit 1 instrument.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[rty5150]

it's gonna come down to mic placement and the room. in the family room, hang some blankets to minimize the room. setup mics to where the snare is in the null as much as possible. try some dampening of the snare, too, if it is overly dominant over the kit.

compression will only worsen the problem. padding the mics is just making them quieter before hitting the pres/converters. no help there. it's just best to get a handle on your room acoustics and mic placement.

[BLUElightCory]

No one has really mentioned the source yet, so here are a couple of tips:

1. Try to get the drummer to not play the cymbals as hard. Ideally, you want drum takes where the drummer is solidly hitting the kick/snare/toms but finessing the cymbals. Drummers who play live a lot but lack much studio experience often tend to really lay into the cymbals.

2. Try to beg/borrow/steal better cymbals. Many drummers will bring in loud, thick cymbals like Z Customs (or something similar), which can sound God-awful in a recording situation (and create a lot of nasty sounding bleed in your drum mics). Using thinner/quieter/ and/or darker cymbals (like Zildjian As, Ks, and their equivalents) can go a long way towards a better overall drum sound and less bleed.

Don't forget to experiment with mic positioning! Try to get the null area of the close mics' polar pattern to cancel out as much of the cymbal content as you can.

Best of luck,
Cory

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

No one has really mentioned the source yet, so here are a couple of tips:

1. Try to get the drummer to not play the cymbals as hard. Ideally, you want drum takes where the drummer is solidly hitting the kick/snare/toms but finessing the cymbals. Drummers who play live a lot but lack much studio experience often tend to really lay into the cymbals.

2. Try to beg/borrow/steal better cymbals. Many drummers will bring in loud, thick cymbals like Z Customs (or something similar), which can sound God-awful in a recording situation (and create a lot of nasty sounding bleed in your drum mics). Using thinner/quieter/ and/or darker cymbals (like Zildjian As, Ks, and their equivalents) can go a long way towards a better overall drum sound and less bleed.

Don't forget to experiment with mic positioning! Try to get the null area of the close mics' polar pattern to cancel out as much of the cymbal content as you can.

Best of luck,
Cory

actually, we use moon gel on the cymbals for rehearsing. our rehearsal kit is electric so we have control of the volume. cymbals, not so much. the moon gel helps out tremendously while retaining good tone. that may be an option, too.

[jinksdingo]

Family room with no treatment the fewer mics the better.

Set your drums up where they sound the best in the room .

Set up two room condensor mics; one up left behind drummer, the other right of snare and hats but out in front several feet not too high up.

Set up so kit sounds correct in stereo and you got a good balance (not where the mic looks like it should go) and perhaps a tweak on the kit here and there, Oh and check the phase all the time reversing one of the two to check for magic.

You'll be surprised at how good this can get. Depends on what genre your doing though.

Throw a few more mics up if you got them. Kick, snare but get those two room mics sounding perfect first then add the others in checking phase reversal and if the sound gets weak leave it out.

[aclarson]

If you're not wanting to do any acoustic treatment to the room, hanging a thick blanket on the closest wall could be helpful to tame things down.

[metalfan8806]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

No one has really mentioned the source yet, so here are a couple of tips:

1. Try to get the drummer to not play the cymbals as hard. Ideally, you want drum takes where the drummer is solidly hitting the kick/snare/toms but finessing the cymbals. Drummers who play live a lot but lack much studio experience often tend to really lay into the cymbals.

2. Try to beg/borrow/steal better cymbals. Many drummers will bring in loud, thick cymbals like Z Customs (or something similar), which can sound God-awful in a recording situation (and create a lot of nasty sounding bleed in your drum mics). Using thinner/quieter/ and/or darker cymbals (like Zildjian As, Ks, and their equivalents) can go a long way towards a better overall drum sound and less bleed.

Don't forget to experiment with mic positioning! Try to get the null area of the close mics' polar pattern to cancel out as much of the cymbal content as you can.

Best of luck,
Cory

Okay- the cymbal part of what he said may or may not be a good piece of advice. If you're doing louder/heavier music..or you plan on replacing snare/kick/toms etc etc- then I wouldnt really worry about how hard he's hitting the cymbals. cause honestly- if his snare is a big player in the overheads instead of the cymbals...guess what you have to try and EQ and blend together?
yup- the snare sound that you thought you would have control over and the one thats dancing allllll over the overhead tracks now.

If its softer music..where you really desire an overall balance in the overheads..then yes- appropriate cymbal quality and how hard he/she hits them will be very important.


ANYWAYS:
Here's a quick list of things you can try:

-Once the kick drum mic is in position correctly, lay a thick blanket over it...to minimize bleed both ways.

-Experiment your overhead placement...ie: move them from center to outsides, or from sides to front and back. etc etc

-Be very mindful of where your mics are facing..if you have your high tom facing downward towards the tom where the ridiculously loud snare if banging away- then yes you are going to have some serious bleed...that even the beloved gate wont be able to fully hide. So get creative and dont just assume you have to always place mics in the same spots on the kit.
(this means..mic'ing the bottom heads could be an answer)

-Try improvised means of isolating the microphones from outside interference. Example: Put white foam cups over the mic to help shield it from the splash cymbal 2 inches away. etc etc

-And in regards to the idea of putting up blankets in the room and such...i would totally do that...IF you are having issues with the room. Like if you are in a garage and sweet Lord i hope you arent

[cannibalbritney]

Originally Posted by metalfan8806

Okay- the cymbal part of what he said may or may not be a good piece of advice. If you're doing louder/heavier music..or you plan on replacing snare/kick/toms etc etc- then I wouldnt really worry about how hard he's hitting the cymbals. cause honestly- if his snare is a big player in the overheads instead of the cymbals...guess what you have to try and EQ and blend together?
yup- the snare sound that you thought you would have control over and the one thats dancing allllll over the overhead tracks now.

If its softer music..where you really desire an overall balance in the overheads..then yes- appropriate cymbal quality and how hard he/she hits them will be very important.


ANYWAYS:
Here's a quick list of things you can try:

-Once the kick drum mic is in position correctly, lay a thick blanket over it...to minimize bleed both ways.

-Experiment your overhead placement...ie: move them from center to outsides, or from sides to front and back. etc etc

-Be very mindful of where your mics are facing..if you have your high tom facing downward towards the tom where the ridiculously loud snare if banging away- then yes you are going to have some serious bleed...that even the beloved gate wont be able to fully hide. So get creative and dont just assume you have to always place mics in the same spots on the kit.
(this means..mic'ing the bottom heads could be an answer)

-Try improvised means of isolating the microphones from outside interference. Example: Put white foam cups over the mic to help shield it from the splash cymbal 2 inches away. etc etc

-And in regards to the idea of putting up blankets in the room and such...i would totally do that...IF you are having issues with the room. Like if you are in a garage and sweet Lord i hope you arent

well honestly not getting that much bleed out of the bass drum mic... i put it in the bass drum about 40-45% and fire it 90degrees at the shell. it sounds pretty metal sounding... i could be off by miles, but this is how i was taught by some pretty prestigious people who have shown me killer tracks. and i jhave been able to get rid of excess bleed easily with a limiter so i can always revisit that.

as far as those auralex things go, im not throwin my money into that when i could put it into the room itself or get some sunbursts or somethin.

i may try the foam cup idea for the snare... if i put the mic any closer than i have it, im litterally OFF on the pre, and its still clipping. so im guessing thats gonna need a pad no matter what i do.

as far as my main concerns most of my bleed is coming from the tom mics... *im using 57's* trying to figure out exactly how to really minimize the bleed on those most of all... im getting snare, cymbals, hats everything comin through those... i cant edit around it cus when a quick roll comes in, i still got a previous snare rattle or hat sizzle still happening or cymbal ringing so it just sounds retarded.

our drummer is not really experienced in the studio... he's pretty solid live, can play tight to a click, but not exactly the best at finesse on hard hits.

overheads i tried x/y pattern for overheads, but i've always been told the higher they are the better,*any suggestions* and for room mics the wider they are the better. * as long as it isnt 30% larger than the width of the kit itself.

any help is still appreciated.

[rty5150]

btw, i use the auralex producer pack with the drum kit foam isolators, that helps, too.

[PatBlair]

Originally Posted by cannibalbritney

i may try the foam cup idea for the snare... if i put the mic any closer than i have it, im litterally OFF on the pre, and its still clipping. so im guessing thats gonna need a pad no matter what i do.

This may or may not be a completely separate issue from the bleed, but a 57 should be able to physically sit on the top snare head, and the mic itself won't clip. What is your gain-staging? It almost sounds as though you're running through 2 pre-amps.

[cannibalbritney]

Originally Posted by PatBlair

This may or may not be a completely separate issue from the bleed, but a 57 should be able to physically sit on the top snare head, and the mic itself won't clip. What is your gain-staging? It almost sounds as though you're running through 2 pre-amps.

i have a 25ft cable plugged into the 57, and thats plugged into a 002. thats it.

[Les]

This may or may not be a completely separate issue from the bleed, but a 57 should be able to physically sit on the top snare head, and the mic itself won't clip.

I agree... honestly you shouldn't be clipping at any time with a 57. Your pre amp gain might be very low (10-20db) if you're really close mic'ed...but there should be no overload.

I'd really look into this and find out what's wrong. It could be the main reason you are having problems. Tell us about your gain settings.

Edit: I did a quick check of the digi 002 specs and it seems the minimum mic pre gain is 15 db!!??
I'm not liking that very much!

I think I see some inline passive balanced mic attenuators in your future...10 or 20 db. You'll never get good drum sound if you're clipping the pres.

Les

Les
L M Watts Technology

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by metalfan8806

Okay- the cymbal part of what he said may or may not be a good piece of advice. If you're doing louder/heavier music..or you plan on replacing snare/kick/toms etc etc- then I wouldnt really worry about how hard he's hitting the cymbals. cause honestly- if his snare is a big player in the overheads instead of the cymbals...guess what you have to try and EQ and blend together?
yup- the snare sound that you thought you would have control over and the one thats dancing allllll over the overhead tracks now.

If its softer music..where you really desire an overall balance in the overheads..then yes- appropriate cymbal quality and how hard he/she hits them will be very important.

The problem with bashing the cymbals in this situation is that any extra loud cymbal content is going to reflect all over the OP's untreated room and create harsh echoes and phase issues in the overheads. In a good room this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but the OP is not using an ideal room. They're also using a pair of room mics, which too much cymbal content will render pretty much unusable.

I'm not saying to have the drummer wimp out on the cymbals, just to make sure he's playing dynamically and balanced, not just killing the cymbals as so many heavy-music drummers do.

To the OP, if you're concerned with getting too much snare on your OH mics, use a spaced pair, mic closer to the cymbals, and angle the mics away from the snare. This will help achieve a more separated and distinct overhead sound with the additional benefit of reducing the amount of room reflections in the mic. With overheads, higher is not always better, so don't worry about that. Try a few positions and put the mics where they sound best.

Hope this helps!

Cory Spotts

[bbgallaway]

It's pretty much been covered by now, but I've gotta go with the guys saying hit the drums hard and the cymbals soft. If you can't control your room, you'd better be able to control your drums, cymbals, heads/tuning, and playing....if none of it's good you don't have a chance in hell of getting a good sound. Really take your time with mic placement too.....whether the room sucks or not it'll make a difference, but it sounds like the room sucks so that might be your saving grace. Then stop worrying about bleed - if Brendan O'Brien doesn't sweat it, why should you?

[juanpz]

Use gates whenever possible. Especially if close micing toms

I know someone is going to bash gates, so if you can write the fader movements with a vca, then do it.

Mic technique can go a long way separating the hi hat from the snare mic.
Use a narrow polar pattern, with the node aimed at the hi hat.
Same goes for the bidirectional mic, aim the negative half at the hi hat and flip the phase.

Also noted earlier, not all bleed is bad.
We will never get rid of bleed all together, harness it and use it to your advantage

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Would trying a more minimalist miking technique be something you could experiment with. I've had great results with the Glyn Johns 4 mic (and 5 mic) method. Another thing that others have stated BLEED ISN'T ALL BAD!

Basically you have two mics as overheads. You position one over your rack tom(s) pointing at your snare. This mic is usually about 2-3 stick lengths above the snare. The other mic is 2-3 stick lengths away from the snare drum only this one is about 4-6" above the floor tom pointing toward the snare and hi hat. (if you do a google search you can find some images of this to figure out what it should look like)

Next you mic up the snare and kick drum. Your Beta 52 and SM57 would be adeqaute in getting the job done. Not my favorite choices but hey you have what you have and I'm sure a Beyer M201 for the snare and a Heil PR-40 on the kick are probably out of the question.

Now if you still want some more ambience take one of your room mics and place it in front of the kit (FOK style).

Try to get the best sounds possible with as little as possible. This technique hardly takes long to setup and the results are oftentimes better than miking up every last stinking drum. Although I'm probably partial to the method because most of my favorite drummers growing up were recorded by Glyn Johns.

Learning to properly place mics is one step.

Next you need to focus on the actual performance and source. I know it sounds simple but how does the actual kit sound on it's own unmiked just in the room. Perhaps you need to move the kit to the center of the room. Perhaps the drums need new heads or to be fine tuned. So many variables here. Or better yet, maybe the drums aren't in tune to the song(s) you are recording. Also you can't blame mics and gear for a bad take or a bad drummer. If the sound in the room isn't happening (meaning mistakes, improper balance let's say all you hear in the room is the snare or a certain cymbal, whatever it WILL NOT sound good on tape). Sometimes the quality of drums and cymbals use can also influence the final sound. Don't expect a $200 sound percussion kit with an $80 cymbal set to sound like a well tuned custom north american maple shell kit with a set of $4000 custom cast cymbals.

Now I've brought up the room a little bit. Drums are very tricky to record (possibly) one of the hardest sources. But it can be done easily.

You will need acoustic treatment to optimize your drum recordings and make it as easy as possible. Drums need the following treatment BASS TRAPS (easy to make your own search the thread or google to find out how to DIY). They need broadband absorption / gobos (also easy to make yourself simply search). Last you may need some diffusion treatment to help with cleaning up the high frequencies. Acoustic treatment doesn't have to be expensive and don't be fooled into spending hundreds on a silly foam kit at your local guitar center. Building your own will be cheaper and work MUCH better. Plus your own building can customize to your own needs and work best for your room.

Broadband absorption can be as simple as hanging packing blankets on the walls to cut down on reflections.

The room has to sound good for your kit. Now you don't want to get the idea that you are killing all tone in your room or making it sound dead. Because you don't want a dead room to record in. You simply want to cut back some of the reflections and clean up the sound. You need some life for your drums to breathe in.

Best of luck. Any pics of the room with your setup or soundclips would really help out here.

I think the real issues you are having aren't bleed but rather phase issues and comb filtering. You probably have too many mics up on that kit and they aren't positioned well in respect to the other mics and in relation to the room.

[synthdude]

honestly if all else fails here are a few things to try.


One solution if you have gate is to use a contact a to a comp/gate and use it as your trigger the gate opening, and use the mic as the input because the sound takes further to travel from the shell to the acctualy mic it will not chop off the front end but will make the bleeed nobn exsistent or way less.

The other only real option is to go the trigger route and add triggers to yoyr drums and use protrig or soemthing, this requires youm to sample each drum seprately before hand.


For my scenario I dont try to avoid bleed but I rely on it and if I do need to use more then 2 mics on drums I will adjust the mics to get the comb filtering to my liking before mixing in the trackign stage. 90 percent of the time now I am just using 1 room mic and it turns out great even though I don't have a great sounding room it hasn't picked up yet n any recordings I have done.