Is bigger better?

[Bouldy]

Hi, I have a room approx 9x10x8 (WxLxH) and am trying to decide on Hs50 / Hs80. The 50's seem really small, but in this size room would the 80's be too big? I don't want to be cranking the volume the whole time to get the 80's working properly. I have decided not to get a sub initially as I'd like to 'learn' the nearfields first. Opinions? Thanks
Dave

[Stevedresser83]

I would get the 80's they are not to big and you can use them without a sub but not perfectly accurate in the low end. I have the 80's with a sub and am very happy with it.

[Bouldy]

Thanks Steve, my local store only had the 50's in stock so I wasn't sure about the size though I know they are a slightly smaller than the krk vxt8's.
Dave

[Bouldy]

Btw steve, what sub are you using?
Dave

[killersoundz]

Definitely stay away from the HS50's. My friend has a pair and wow no good. The poor bass response is to be expected from a 5" woofer (so you cant trust anything it tells you below 100hz) but the highs are just down right harsh. The lack of the bass response lead to his mixes being incredibly bass heavy until he figured it out.

My old pair of Behringer Truth 8" monitors are much much more accurate then those 5" yamahas. Little spike around 2-4khz where the tweeter is crossed over but nothing you can't get used to. I can't comment on the 8" Yamaha's though, if in doubt definitely go bigger, atleast you will have a better low end response.

[Chris Lago]

Hs50s without a doubt. I use NS10s and Hs50s on my projects all the time. Very dull, mid rangy sound that translates perfectly on many different systems.

[killersoundz]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Hs50s without a doubt. I use NS10s and Hs50s on my projects all the time. Very dull, mid rangy sound that translates perfectly on many different systems.

Yikes, reallllllllly??? Maybe if they were mine and I had spent the time getting used to them.........

I still can't mix on a speaker that drops off like a cliff at 80hz. tutt

[Bouldy]

I had wondered what monitors you use chris, it doesn't say on your site. (Big fan lol!) But I have to say killersoundz, chris does have good mixes.....hmm.
Still, it is 2 against 1 so far, anyone else?

Dave

[Heartfelt]

Good luck judging the lows on 5" speakers. If you are doing beats and such, it
shouldn't be too bad. If you plan to record drums and bass... instruments with real
dynamics and issues, I suggest you get all the help you can.


I use the 80's and I CAN hear the bass with no sub. It is articulate and tight and
gives plenty to judge with. If you can listen to both, I highly suggest it.
Rob


PS. If you do choose the small ones, get some flat headphones to judge the bottom end and learn them well.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Bouldy

I had wondered what monitors you use chris, it doesn't say on your site. (Big fan lol!) But I have to say killersoundz, chris does have good mixes.....hmm.
Still, it is 2 against 1 so far, anyone else?

Dave

I go back and forth between NS10s and HS50, depending on the studio I work at. I'm actually going to be featured on a song by The Game, and I'll be using HS50 to mix.

[killersoundz]

Hehe well for a pretty good comparison here is a recording of a local band I did mixed on Behringer Truth (whatever the 8" versions are). Please note this was a long time ago and this mix, compared to what I do now, is pretty awful. Lacks a lot of body.

http://www.grendelsound.com/natural disaster 128.mp3

And now here is that same song recorded by the bands guitarist (this was months after my recording for their EP), mixed on HS50m's.


http://www.grendelsound.com/natural disaster reese.mp3

Now I mean truthfully he could have mixed it on some Genelec's and it would have still been a turd so this doesn't really proove anything....

[ambiguity]

9x10x8 is a tiny room, 8's seem like quite an overkill.

[killersoundz]

Originally Posted by Bouldy

Hi, I have a room approx 9x10x8 (WxLxH) and am trying to decide on Hs50 / Hs80. The 50's seem really small, but in this size room would the 80's be too big? I don't want to be cranking the volume the whole time to get the 80's working properly. I have decided not to get a sub initially as I'd like to 'learn' the nearfields first. Opinions? Thanks
Dave

You don't have to crank anything. In fact you shouldn't crank your monitors while mixing. You should be around 90dB maybe 95dB maximum while mixing. This is pretty quiet. Any louder and you risk hearing damage and your ears have a skewed frequency response at loud volumes.

[Jeffguitar]

Is bigger better? Must be, that's what I overheard my wife saying to the mail man, don't know why she was saying that to him.

[Bouldy]

Originally Posted by killersoundz

Now I mean truthfully he could have mixed it on some Genelec's and it would have still been a turd so this doesn't really proove anything....

Agree, but your mix is better.

Originally Posted by dragan

9x10x8 is a tiny room, 8's seem like quite an overkill.

This was one of my concerns

Originally Posted by killersoundz

You don't have to crank anything. In fact you shouldn't crank your monitors while mixing. You should be around 90dB maybe 95dB maximum while mixing. This is pretty quiet. Any louder and you risk hearing damage and your ears have a skewed frequency response at loud volumes.

Yes but surely larger speakers are designed for louder volumes, and I would think maybe they are designed for 'midfield monitoring' (if there is such a thing), or indeed larger rooms? I am sure I read in a forum that the 8" cones of (someones) monitors didn't start giving an accurate response until they reached a certain volume?

Originally Posted by Jeffguitar

Is bigger better? Must be, that's what I overheard my wife saying to the mail man, don't know why she was saying that to him.

Lol! Special delivery huh?

[Chris Lago]

You'd be surprised how low I mix. Sometimes the artist asks me what I'm doing, and I tell them I am mixing!

[kheftel]

I don't know about the 80s vs the 50s, but one thing that seems certain - in a tiny, almost-cubic room, you won't need a sub. Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Heartfelt]

Bigger doesn't simply mean louder. Smaller speakers simply cannot reproduce the
lower frequencies. Look at the charts and graphs. It doesn't matter if it is Yamaha or
Genelec. Granted, they will vary a bit as to how low they go but 5" speakers cannot
do what 8" speakers do.

Just because the speaker is bigger doesn't mean you have to use them louder.

A bigger issue is the acoustics of your room and foam, while ok for taming flutter and
higher end issues, won't do a darn thing about the low end. I had a Roominator
kit in a small room and it still major-ly sucked. You will need bass traps to tame the
low end in that room no matter what size you choose.

There are many 8" near-field monitors. 8" does not equate to mid-field.

Seriously.... listen before you buy.

[Bouldy]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Bigger doesn't simply mean louder. Smaller speakers simply cannot reproduce the
lower frequencies. Look at the charts and graphs. It doesn't matter if it is Yamaha or
Genelec. Granted, they will vary a bit as to how low they go but 5" speakers cannot
do what 8" speakers do.

Just because the speaker is bigger doesn't mean you have to use them louder.

A bigger issue is the acoustics of your room and foam, while ok for taming flutter and
higher end issues, won't do a darn thing about the low end. I had a Roominator
kit in a small room and it still major-ly sucked. You will need bass traps to tame the
low end in that room no matter what size you choose.

There are many 8" near-field monitors. 8" does not equate to mid-field.

Seriously.... listen before you buy.

Thanks, wasn't sure about the near-mid thing. I will be treating my room with DIY bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners and full range traps at the first reflection points and take it from there. To be honest I prefer the 8" soundwise (they just 'seem' fuller), but thought I would have to turn them up to an uncomfortable volume. Am going back today to try some more monitors and be purchasing Friday.

Dave

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Bouldy

Thanks, wasn't sure about the near-mid thing. I will be treating my room with DIY bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners and full range traps at the first reflection points and take it from there. To be honest I prefer the 8" soundwise (they just 'seem' fuller), but thought I would have to turn them up to an uncomfortable volume. Am going back today to try some more monitors and be purchasing Friday.

Dave

Can you bring the monitors home to test? I think it's so much better to test them in your own environment. Do you have a 30 days money back where you'll be buying the monitors? I was at the store the other day and the HS80s were on display, heard them, they seem to have a full bass, but I found that they were a bit lacking in the mid range. If you are doubting the HS50s bass, just buy a subwoofer with them no?

I think albums with good bass usually evolve around low mids, which makes the bass seem more prominent in an artificial sort of way. Gives more information to the speakers, doesn't mean more bass.

Guys like Butch Vig and Dre have build careers on the amazing low mid frequency.

[Bouldy]

Unlikely I can test them at home as they only have the 50's in stock whereas the 80's are 'order only', which actully would be pointless until I have my treatment anyway(waiting on rockwool stuff, and the round tuit). I don't have any objection to buying a sub, but I thought I would try and 'get my my ear in' initially. As I am just starting out more or less, I also wanted a bit of a cash stash in case I hadn't thought of something or needed to upgrade quicker than expected. Maybe I should start a thread about that? I could call it "nice n slow or blow my load?" Lol! Sorry, completely inappropriate.
Dave

[Bouldy]

On a bit of a tangent, I A/B'ed the krk vxt6 vs the rp6's the other day, wow what a difference! Those ribbon tweeters have some clarity!
Dave

[Chris Lago]

So maybe you should wait to get your room treated nicely before you put the monitors in there.

So just,

1: Treat the room
2: Try the Hs50 and if you don't like them, bring them back and order the Hs80.
3: Use your ears haha.

[Jonesfromindia]

Originally Posted by killersoundz

You don't have to crank anything. In fact you shouldn't crank your monitors while mixing. You should be around 90dB maybe 95dB maximum while mixing. This is pretty quiet. Any louder and you risk hearing damage and your ears have a skewed frequency response at loud volumes.

dude. thats ****in loud....

like what chris said....the guys 3 doors down shouldnt hear you mix.

thats almost as loud as a drum kit.

and anything above 65dB can be considered to give hearing loss. its how long that matters.

[Sky]

Originally Posted by kheftel

I don't know about the 80s vs the 50s, but one thing that seems certain - in a tiny, almost-cubic room, you won't need a sub. Correct me if I'm wrong?

I'm not an acoustic wizard but 9x10x8 is a very small room. It's possible to calculate a room cutoff frequency below which the bass response is unreliable. Generally, the smaller the room, the higher this frequency.

So the HS80 might reproduce extended bass that makes it harder to mix in your room versus the HS50. My experience in a similar untreated room favored using near fields with small (6.5") woofers to keep the bass tight and more under control.

Sky

[Bouldy]

Originally Posted by Sky

My experience in a similar untreated room favored using near fields with small (6.5") woofers to keep the bass tight and more under control.

Sky

But as I said earlier, I do intend to treat the room, so will this still prove to be the case?
Dave

[Sky]

Originally Posted by Bouldy

But as I said earlier, I do intend to treat the room, so will this still prove to be the case?
Dave

Here's a rough calculation I just tried:

1. Estimate RT60 for a 9 x 10 x 8 residential room with carpeted floor and a few windows on one long wall: 0.44 seconds.

Reverberation Time Calculator

2. Calculate room cutoff frequency using Cf = 20000*SQRT(T/V): 494 Hz

"Every studio has some frequency above which the modal frequencies are close enough together to merge into a statistical continuum... At frequencies higher than [this] cutoff frequency, various components of the signal will be treated more or less uniformly... At frequencies below cutoff, excessive spacing of modes exists with resulting uneven treatment of signal components."

small budget recording studio from scratch

This calculation suggests that you'll have smooth sailing above roughly 494 Hz, and you can try treating the room with bass traps and diffusers to smooth out many (i.e. 20) individual modes below 494 Hz. Lower frequencies would generate more harmonics (modes) below 494 Hz, which I think is why bigger speakers and subwoofers might be problematic. I never tried to aggressively treat my small room, but going to nearfields with higher cutoff definitely helped.

Ouch, my brain hurts and that's all I got. Perhaps some experts in the Studio Construction & Acoustics Forum can assist?

Sky

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Bouldy

But as I said earlier, I do intend to treat the room, so will this still prove to be the case?
Dave

Again, I'd say, treat the room before adding nice monitors.

[ryanojohn]

Originally Posted by Jonesfromindia

dude. thats ****in loud....

like what chris said....the guys 3 doors down shouldnt hear you mix.

thats almost as loud as a drum kit.

and anything above 65dB can be considered to give hearing loss. its how long that matters.

Exactly what I was thinking... damn


I mix around 70dB, with occasional volume jumps to 85dB to check the low end tightness... Often I've even got it down to whisper levels to check the balance...

[ryanojohn]

Oh and I mix on HS80s without a sub. Other monitors I've owned, Adam A7, KRK VXT8, Event ASP8, and Dynaudio BM6A.

Apart from the Dyn's, the Yamaha's are my fav, and always translate best to other systems... but then again I've been using them primarily for over 3 years now, so I've got 'em 'figured out.'