Is there anyone here who uses only drum samples instead of real drums?

[rgr22]

Hey guys, I was just wondering if there´s anyone here who mixes only with drum samples instead of real ones? Cause I´ve been having trouble mixing drums lately and I like the way my mixes turn out with samples.

See, I´m mixing a project for a rock band, I didnt take part in the tracking process and to be honest... the drums totally suck! they are poorly recorded, so after spending a week trying to mix the unmixable I finally decided to go for drum samples and the result is fabulous, it made the song sound so alive and punchy so maybe Ill just stick with samples for a while but here´s the problem:

The drummer is a good friend of mine but Im afraid that if they ask me about what I did to make the songs sound better I´ll have to tell them I used samples and if I tell them that, then the drummer will feel like he´s not a part of the songs anymore, its not really him. Of course, what I did as a mixing engineer was to do what I had to do to make the songs sound the way they should sound according to the band´s style, has anyone else been in this situation? And who gave up on real drums and went for samples?

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by rgr22

Hey guys, I was just wondering if there´s anyone here who mixes only with drum samples instead of real ones? Cause I´ve been having trouble mixing drums lately and I like the way my mixes turn out with samples.

See, I´m mixing a project for a rock band, I didnt take part in the tracking process and to be honest... the drums totally suck! they are poorly recorded, so after spending a week trying to mix the unmixable I finally decided to go for drum samples and the result is fabulous, it made the song sound so alive and punchy so maybe Ill just stick with samples for a while but here´s the problem:

The drummer is a good friend of mine but Im afraid that if they ask me about what I did to make the songs sound better I´ll have to tell them I used samples and if I tell them that, then the drummer will feel like he´s not a part of the songs anymore, its not really him. Of course, what I did as a mixing engineer was to do what I had to do to make the songs sound the way they should sound according to the band´s style, has anyone else been in this situation? And who gave up on real drums and went for samples?

You'd be surprised, a lot of mixing engineers replace the drums with samples. Don't be afraid to do so, I've done it tons of times. Just let him know first, and if he says no, don't do it. Are you paid to mix?

[Heartfelt]

I'm drawing a blank but I seem to remember a recent release being all canned drums. I think it was Motley Crew.

Anyone remember clearly?

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by rgr22

Hey guys, I was just wondering if there´s anyone here who mixes only with drum samples instead of real ones? Cause I´ve been having trouble mixing drums lately and I like the way my mixes turn out with samples.

See, I´m mixing a project for a rock band, I didnt take part in the tracking process and to be honest... the drums totally suck! they are poorly recorded, so after spending a week trying to mix the unmixable I finally decided to go for drum samples and the result is fabulous, it made the song sound so alive and punchy so maybe Ill just stick with samples for a while but here´s the problem:

The drummer is a good friend of mine but Im afraid that if they ask me about what I did to make the songs sound better I´ll have to tell them I used samples and if I tell them that, then the drummer will feel like he´s not a part of the songs anymore, its not really him. Of course, what I did as a mixing engineer was to do what I had to do to make the songs sound the way they should sound according to the band´s style, has anyone else been in this situation? And who gave up on real drums and went for samples?

can you re-record his kit with your stuff for the samples? that is what i did. the kit was the same, but i recorded better drum sounds and used drumagog to replace the bad drums. then there is no real reason to gripe. it IS still his kit, but a better recorded version of it.

rich

[Chris Lago]

I think it's a matter of letting go of his ego for the greater good of the band, that's what it comes down to really.

[rty5150]

you got a rough mix of the drums only?


rich

[asplashofcitrus]

There was a time when a recording studio entitle Love Juice Labs was being booked by nearly all the bands in the AZ scene here, and really the only mics they had were 57's and a D112. Because of this, the semi-knowledgeable engineers, and lack of great recording rooms, all the drums pretty much had to be replaced with samples. I'm not sure what the program was they used, but they used literally the same preset of sounds for nearly every band that was recorded/mixed here. Needless to say, all the bands sounded the same. Definitely not fun.

[rgr22]

Originally Posted by rty5150

you got a rough mix of the drums only?


rich

Yeah but its back in the studio, I´ll upload it tomorrow for you guys to check it out, thanks for all your comments!

[Bouldy]

It depends on what you did with the samples. Did you completely re-score (if thats the term) the drums, including adjusting the drummers timing; or did you essentially replace the sound of his drumkit with samples? If you did the latter then it is still the drummer playing, granted the expression will be smoother than he played (probably) but adding compression will do that anyway. I would play the track/s to the band and see what they think. If they are happy then you don't need to let any of the band members know your 'pro' techniques, after all, thats why you get paid to do what you do.
My 2...

[Stevedresser83]

I've used BFD and addictive drums as my "real" drums with good results. I layer in one shots on top of those also. The hi hats are the worst part about any of these drum libraries. Cymbals in general are harder to re-create how a cymbal reacts to getting hit multiple times in a row. Also if you can get v-drums it helps a lot to actually play and not program.

[jimmydeluxe]

I use all samples, played live on a controller, then quantized where needed.

If you just replaced his hits with sample sounds, no problem--major producers do that ALL the time, and no need to even tell anyone--that's standard procedure. If you replayed and rerecorded, I would call that you overstepping your bounds. Even if someone sucks, they want to hear themselves suck--most players are very sensitive about being replaced. You're paid to make THEM sounds as good as possible, not YOU on their record, unless they ask for it. My .02

If you did the latter already and think no one will know, just don't say anything.

[bentwookieesound]

In your situation, I wouldn't think twice about it. Start by getting the best drum mix possible, and then tuck some samples up underneath. With that route you're basically using the samples for their transients and consistency. If that won't work, go full tilt. If you can find some good hits in the songs that you can process via compression, eq, and/or transient shaping, that's the best. Otherwise, try to match up the samples with the overall tone of the kit. A poppy, tightly tuned steel pic will not (always) mesh well with a fat, medium tuned maple snare.

Make sure you multisample, and automate your levels for drum rolls and fills. Toms have always been the most difficult, so automation is your friend there. Watch your ambiance and panning, and try not to make the samples poke out too much.

I can name a few regional engineers that seem to sample the s%^t out of their mixes. There's a particular studio in a neighboring state that uses the same samples for just about everything. It's usually a cop out for poorly tracked drums or bad rooms. It ends up homoginizing music for the sake of resume consistency and it's starting to become the standard, but that's a whole separate topic alltogether.

[brian5258]

which program/plugin is the best for sampling drums over tracked drums? I have reason 4.0 but the hi-hats and cymbals never sound real.

is there a program that makes the drums sound real and/or come with a lot of great samples?

when you guys say that you replace his hits with samples, do you mean that you're taking samples and dropping them on tracks in PT or using a program that plays along with PT like reason?

[dkelley]

yes, I often use exclusively samples. sometimes it's because the original track's drums themselves just didn't sound like what we ended up wanting. other times it's so I could adjust and fix things in the original drum part more easily.

Also when I play I personally often use a trigger kit with samples rather than a full real kit, although playing the real kit is way way better, triggering and recording it all in midi gives me way more artistic freedom later when I'm the producer as well.

cheers,
Don

[oletorjus]

I must say that I disagree with alot of things said here. I think an engineers task is as much as making the recording sound as good as possible, it is his/hers task to record the what the band is playing, and record the song and the band. Are you in the band? Because I think it is the studio engineers task to record the band, and if you change the band and the song, then I feel that the bounderies are pushed a little to far. At least ask first..

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

I'm drawing a blank but I seem to remember a recent release being all canned drums. I think it was Motley Crew.

Anyone remember clearly?

I doubt Motley does.....

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I think it's a matter of letting go of his ego for the greater good of the band, that's what it comes down to really.

Huh? It comes down to the engineer capturing the performance properly.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by jimmydeluxe

I use all samples, played live on a controller, then quantized where needed.

If you just replaced his hits with sample sounds, no problem--major producers do that ALL the time, and no need to even tell anyone--that's standard procedure.

Thats just sad....People should be told at the very least

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by oletorjus

I must say that I disagree with alot of things said here. I think an engineers task is as much as making the recording sound as good as possible, it is his/hers task to record the what the band is playing, and record the song and the band. Are you in the band? Because I think it is the studio engineers task to record the band, and if you change the band and the song, then I feel that the bounderies are pushed a little to far. At least ask first..

I agree. Sometimes I think things have gotten as slimy as a 70's A&R man when it comes to these things

[oletorjus]

If this band wants to sell only.. go on I guess. But I think even engineers should have musical ethics.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

seriously if you don't like something YOU NEED TO COMMUNICATE IT. Yeah maybe sampling is an option and what have you but if you are friends with this drummer and/or group and you're being paid to mix/master their recording you need to do what THEY want done to their recording. I think just brushing them aside and never communicating anything to them is going to do far more HARM than good.

Your job is to record their music not to change it. Who cares if they have egos or what have you. It's their material and it isn't your place to decide what to do with it unless they give you permission.

And they will know whether or not you tell them that you sampled the drums because they will hear the difference. I'd say avoid the confrontation and talk to them. A mutual agreement will be far more beneficial on a personal and business level. That is just providing poor service and inappropriate all the way around if you are just changing stuff without telling anyone. If I was paying the bucks for a studio and they did that to me without involving me I'd be pretty pissed off and probably wouldn't want to pay.

[Zeupater]

I often record songs with drums samples or drum machines, but it's usually my band and even then different drummers can have very different feelings -- ranging from being "replaced" by a machine to seeing the electronics as another tool at their disposal. Some drummers won't even use a metronome tutt, and some drummers like a good beat regardless of what instrument was used to create it.

If you're looking for precedent there are LOTS of examples of recordings of bands using drum machines. You need only watch Behind the Music to learn that the drum sound on Def Leppard's album Pyromania is an Alesis HR-16. Hybrids are also popular, e.g. Larry Mullen Jr. of U2: He often uses a drum machine to provide a tempo and accompaniment sounds, like tambourine or other percussion over which he plays the drum set. Also, it seems quite obvious to me that many "metal" songs use samples/drum machines -- including many of Motley Crue's (I just checked a few clips on iTunes and I'm quite convinced). Even a lot of country music nowadays is recorded with samples. And remember, just because you see a drummer playing in the video doesn't mean the recording is acoustic drums.

*steps down from soapbox*

Keith is right -- Obviously, you should talk to the band and the drummer about this before you do give them a mix with your drum part. You could offer the samples as an option, but the final decision has to be with the band -- they should be getting what they are paying for. (Unless you're a high-price engineer who has a contract giving you right of refusal.)

If you think you need to mention this issue, if he's your friend, it might actually be easier to bring up. Just explain the situation to him the way you explained it to us. Prepare the mix with his drums first, and a back-up mix with the electronic drums. Play the mix with his drums for them first, then if it feels appropriate you could mention the other option.

Also, if neither of those seems like a good option, depending on your schedule and resources, perhaps you could try recording the drums again (maybe try some better mics or a bigger room).

Whatever happens I hope you let us know how the situtation turns out.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Huh? It comes down to the engineer capturing the performance properly.

What do you mean? Pro mixing engineers replace drums hits with samples all the time! I know because I've talked to a bunch of them. Just listen to anything by Chris Lord Alge, he compresses the crap out of everything and replaces hits with samples or add them with the existing drums.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

well just to clarify I'm not against sampling or anything like that because it definitely has it's uses and can be an indispensable tool. But like all tools you just have to make sure that everyone reacts happily to their use.

I always say never bite the hands that feed you. In this case this drummer/band is feeding you with your paycheck or some sort of intrinsic reward lol.

Anyone that tells you to run away or not to communicate to these people is a coward and/or has very poor customer service skills.

Unless you have some contract waiving their rights over to you.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by chrislago

What do you mean? Pro mixing engineers replace drums hits with samples all the time! I know because I've talked to a bunch of them. Just listen to anything by Chris Lord Alge, he compresses the crap out of everything and replaces hits with samples or add them with the existing drums.

but if an engineer is good at doing his/her job why should they need to replace everything. That doesn't sound very professional to me that sounds like they are covering up shoddy work. Which is kind of silly because it makes the whole process a million times easier if you just lay down a good sound as opposed to going back through every beat and hit and replacing it. Not to mention the process of finding the sample you like from the millions available.

In my experience in music and just in general it's easier to just take the time to do things right in the first place than it is to cut corners and fix it later.

[rty5150]

by in large, i HATE replacing drums. kills the dynamics of the drums and kinda kills the vibe if totally replaced. i like capturing performances and just editing to fix trouble spots. if the track is too hosed, see if the drummer will recut, this is only really plausible if the track was cut to a click, but otherwise consult with the drummer and see if he will bring his kit over and help you record samples of his kit. let him be there when you mix and and produce his drum section. then you know he'll be happy. a little more time, yes, but you already have a week into it with no good results...


rich

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by chrislago

What do you mean? Pro mixing engineers replace drums hits with samples all the time! I know because I've talked to a bunch of them. Just listen to anything by Chris Lord Alge, he compresses the crap out of everything and replaces hits with samples or add them with the existing drums.

I can't imagine why I don't care for his stuff.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

but if an engineer is good at doing his/her job why should they need to replace everything. That doesn't sound very professional to me that sounds like they are covering up shoddy work. Which is kind of silly because it makes the whole process a million times easier if you just lay down a good sound as opposed to going back through every beat and hit and replacing it. Not to mention the process of finding the sample you like from the millions available.

In my experience in music and just in general it's easier to just take the time to do things right in the first place than it is to cut corners and fix it later.

Well the fact that mixing engineers replace drum hits with samples, it shows you how much some drummers are good nowadays

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I can't imagine why I don't care for his stuff.

I wish I cared for his stuff too man... Ever since he changed rooms, his mixes are bleh.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Well the fact that mixing engineers replace drum hits with samples, it shows you how much some drummers are good nowadays

if they are that bad why doesn't the band get a better drummer or hire someone else to record in the studio.

Rent a better sounding kit/cymbals.

Go to a better sounding room, treat the room better, etc.

you know what I mean....I'm not trying to come off like a dick but seriously if you are paying money (and are a good drummer, according to the OP) than not getting a good drum sound to tape would probably be the engineer's fault