condenser or dynamic

[ohmicide]

i read the previous threads on here about dynamics and condensers, but i still have some specific questions about my recording situation

i've got a small home studio going on so right now i'm recording vocals (don't laugh) inside my walk-in closet with a rode nt1-a going into a universal audio dcs and into an apogee duet.

basically i want to record both male and female vocals along with some acoustic guitar. my main problem now is that i'm not getting very "up front" and detailed vocals to sit nicely on my mixes (mostly electronic and rock).

after doing some research about condenser and dynamic microphones (mostly on here), i started to become unsure as to why my vocals were sounding so bland. is it because i am using a condenser microphone in a not very suitable recording environment, or is it because the microphone i am using just doesn't have the detail i am looking for?

as to what i should get, so far my bet is on the blue baby bottle, but i think i might benefit more from an sm7b or an re 20.

thanks in advance!

[kingocounty]

I've had the same problem using a condenser in a less-than-ideal recording environment; I was picking up too much of the crappy-sounding room and it didn't flatter the track at all. Switching to a dynamic (Peavey 520i, poor man's sm7) worked much better in that situation. Just my two cents.

[dominic hoenig]

if you want upfront vocals use a sm7b.

i use that microphone on 80% of singers that come through the door.

[Storyville]

acoustic guitar, male, and female vocals: condenser. And get out of your closet. ....Everyone wants to record in their freakin' closets. IT'S NOT A GOOD PLACE TO RECORD.

I makin' that part of my signature.

[warhead]

You should post an example mp3 for us to hear.

It's possible this is a dynamics issue (as in a compressor / limiter might be the key).

War

[Mark Kaufman]

Another really good dynamic mic option for poorly treated rooms is an Electro-Voice RE20...it can give all the detail of a nice condenser, but it's also extremely directional, designed to block out anything but what's right in front of it...one of the ultimate anti-bleed mics. It should allow you to crank up the voice without also capturing the computer, the furnace, that dog barking down the street...

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Storyville

acoustic guitar, male, and female vocals: condenser. And get out of your closet. ....Everyone wants to record in their freakin' closets. IT'S NOT A GOOD PLACE TO RECORD.

I makin' that part of my signature.

well the reason i record in the closet is because i don't pick up any room there. also i could get one of those microphone isolators if anything.

i really like the idea of being able to have a good sounding vocals inside my room or anywhere else for that matter

i'll try to post a clip as soon as possible

[dominic hoenig]

shure sm7b or the electrovoice re 20 are your best bets for not picking up the room. i never use any kind of screens when i use my sm7b

[code 10]

Hey ya,

I recorded a guy doing acoustic guitar and vox a few weeks back, I had a SM57 into my grace 201 into a TL Audio comp and finally into my MOTU 1296, wow, both of us were shocked at how good the recording sounded.

Might not work on all occasions though this time it worked out well, might be worth a shot?

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Tony-->

Hey ya,

I recorded a guy doing acoustic guitar and vox a few weeks back, I had a SM57 into my grace 201 into a TL Audio comp and finally into my MOTU 1296, wow, both of us were shocked at how good the recording sounded.

Might not work on all occasions though this time it worked out well, might be worth a shot?

i've only had one experience with the sm7b. a friend recorded a track with his usb tascam interface and it just sounded bad to me. i want to think that it was the preamps but either way it think it probably sounded better than my nt1-a with my ua preamp.

[code 10]

Originally Posted by alehoe

i've only had one experience with the sm7b. a friend recorded a track with his usb tascam interface and it just sounded bad to me. i want to think that it was the preamps but either way it think it probably sounded better than my nt1-a with my us preamps.

I hope this doesn't sound too obvious, have you tried singing closer to the mic?

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Tony-->

I hope this doesn't sound too obvious, have you tried singing closer to the mic?

do you mean with my rode? well i've tried just about everything but i can't get a pleasant sound out of it. and if you mean the sm7b, the guy actually sung close to the microphone and they used a dmp3 preamp into a tascam usb interface.

don't you guys think i would benefit more from the blue baby bottle though? i mean, i do have a pretty dead enough room to record in..

but if i can get the same results with an sm7b or re20 then it'll just go with that.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

A lot of factors can lead to this result.

Sometimes having a dead room might not be a desirable thing, in what ways is the room dead?

Getting an upfront sound doesn't happen in a dull sounding room.

As Warren mentioned it could be a dynamics issue as well.

Mic selection is important but the performance is the key.

Perhaps try a dynamic mic like an SM7b and see if it gives you more of the mojo you're looking for. It should definitely sound more up front by nature. But if it isn't the right tool for the job it may not work for you or the singers you're doing, though they get used a lot so I doubt that will be the case.

I think to get the best subjective advice we will definitely need to hear a sample of a recording that you don't like so we can judge what's wrong with it. Because although the NT1 gets a lot of hate here they are more than usable mics. You should be able to get at least a decent sound out of it. As Warren said it might not be the mic at all and if that's the case you haven't actually solved your problem.

[awakened]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

A lot of factors can lead to this result.

Sometimes having a dead room might not be a desirable thing, in what ways is the room dead?

Getting an upfront sound doesn't happen in a dull sounding room.

As Warren mentioned it could be a dynamics issue as well.

Mic selection is important but the performance is the key.

Perhaps try a dynamic mic like an SM7b and see if it gives you more of the mojo you're looking for. It should definitely sound more up front by nature. But if it isn't the right tool for the job it may not work for you or the singers you're doing, though they get used a lot so I doubt that will be the case.

I think to get the best subjective advice we will definitely need to hear a sample of a recording that you don't like so we can judge what's wrong with it. Because although the NT1 gets a lot of hate here they are more than usable mics. You should be able to get at least a decent sound out of it.

+1, we need to hear it to help.

9 times out of 10 with a condenser it's just a bad room. understand that most rooms aren't built to absorb waves, much less trap them (because absorption wont solve your problem 100%). A 100Hz wave is about 8 feet long!!!

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

You should be able to get at least a decent sound out of it.

well i want more than a decent sound


also i don't really have any good recordings with the nt1-a

i've just always given up in the end

i do have some stuff but they have nothing to do with the sound i'm going for

i'll post soon

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by alehoe

well i want more than a decent sound


also i don't really have any good recordings with the nt1-a

i've just always given up in the end

i do have some stuff but they have nothing to do with the sound i'm going for

i'll post soon

well to get to that point you are going to have to realize that you will have to invest a lot of time, patience, money, knowledge, etc. It won't happen in a flash. That's why a good engineer makes the big bucks. They've got a skill.

And like I said in my post tonight there are a lot of variables that can affect gaining a certain end result.

Performance is probably the most important thing to do right. If it isn't there nothing else matters.

Next will be the room, and keep in mind most rooms aren't designed for optimal acoustic properties. Sometimes a bad sounding room can ravage a great performance.

Next will be mic selection and placement.

Then will be dynamics processing.

Although it seems like I'm ranking these things they will eventually all become critical to master, because they will all play an impact on the end result. It's just to less trained ears the latter items will become more subtle and less noticeable unless you've got a really picky ear. I mean think about it if you gave your demo to the general public will they be able to tell hey they miked that voice with an SM7b or an NT1a or whatever. Or that snare drum has an Audix i5 on it. Nope that's not what they are listening for.

I'd say just keep at it, if you've always given up than you aren't learning all you can from the experiences and mistakes you've made trying in the past. Sometimes you just have to go the whole way through just to have fun and to learn. You won't improve or master anything until you've encountered failure. If anything else just record stuff to learn. Don't expect great results instantly expect a learning curve and some disappointments.

[Newcleardaze]

Before spending any cash on the SM7B or RE20, try an SM57, SM58 or other similar dynamic that you might have around first. The others will certainly be a step up, but this is a way to get an idea if the dynamic is going to be the right direction that you're looking for.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Newcleardaze

Before spending any cash on the SM7B or RE20, try an SM57, SM58 or other similar dynamic that you might have around first. The others will certainly be a step up, but this is a way to get an idea if the dynamic is going to be the right direction that you're looking for.

i'll try out both in a few days

i actually tried an sm58 beta on my guitar cab but ended up liking the rode better

[ohmicide]

maybe it's time for me to restate my question..

basically i want to know if an sm7b will sound similar to a blue baby bottle or an akg 214

the reason why i want to know if because i want to able to record in my room and not in my closet

also i need a step up from the nt1-a

[awakened]

Originally Posted by alehoe

maybe it's time for me to restate my question..

basically i want to know if an sm7b will sound similar to a blue baby bottle or an akg 214

the reason why i want to know if because i want to able to record in my room and not in my closet

also i need a step up from the nt1-a

very very different mics you're dealing with here. my bet is the sm7 will be darker, but as stated, will be more direct / less room sound. i wouldnt worry about getting a high-end condenser without treating your room. we have treated rooms / booths here, and i still pick the SM7 over the pricier LDCs on varying projects (for vox)

[Tapeworm]

Maybe buy a Reflexion Filter and take (most of) the room out of the equation.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by awakened

very very different mics you're dealing with here. my bet is the sm7 will be darker, but as stated, will be more direct / less room sound. i wouldnt worry about getting a high-end condenser without treating your room. we have treated rooms / booths here, and i still pick the SM7 over the pricier LDCs on varying projects (for vox)

why do you pick the sm7 over the other mics? i do really like the fact that i can use it anywhere without a reflection filter

Originally Posted by Tapeworm

Maybe buy a Reflexion Filter and take (most of) the room out of the equation.

my closet already takes the room out of the question, but i'm not sure how much longer i'll be staying in this house so i might start looking into it now

[Tapeworm]

Originally Posted by alehoe

my closet already takes the room out of the question, but i'm not sure how much longer i'll be staying in this house so i might start looking into it now

Your closet maybe introducing "small room" reflections and filtering. This might be the cause of your lack of detail. Is the closet treated at all?

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Tapeworm

Your closet maybe introducing "small room" reflections and filtering. This might be the cause of your lack of detail. Is the closet treated at all?

the closet isn't really treated in any conventinal way if that's what you're asking

here's a pictue

you're probably wondering why the microphone is off to the side.. well my headphones don't really reach all the way inside comfortably and there's also a half stack in there

well imagine having my friends/acquaintances go in there for recording.. not my favorite thing in the world

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by Storyville

acoustic guitar, male, and female vocals: condenser. And get out of your closet. ....Everyone wants to record in their freakin' closets. IT'S NOT A GOOD PLACE TO RECORD.

I makin' that part of my signature.

Word. I'd be willing to bet that the reason the OP's vocals aren't sitting well is that everything from about 5Khz on up is a riot of comb filtering while everything below 500Hz is a tubby mess. He'll probably do much better out in the open room with a good dynamic like the RE-20 or the SM7b.

Frank

[awakened]

Originally Posted by alehoe

why do you pick the sm7 over the other mics? i do really like the fact that i can use it anywhere without a reflection filter

i pick what sounds best for the vocalist. the sm7 is king on highly sibilant vocalists and hardcore / scream vocals.

Originally Posted by alehoe

the closet isn't really treated in any conventinal way if that's what you're asking

umm...that isn't treated at all. all you are doing is cutting out HF content.

Originally Posted by alehoe

alright guys here's a clip i recorded just now

there's a dry one with no editing and also a mix with the song

i know i'm not a great singer but i hope you understand what i mean with it lacking detail

also i think i understand about the small room reflection

the waves are going all over the place, there's just no control. also, your voice is boomy because the HF content is gone. no air.

i think a reflection filter would help if you still want to use an LDC


as far as a closet vocal recording though, i think you are getting the best sound you can with what you have.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by awakened

the waves are going all over the place, there's just no control. also, your voice is boomy because the HF content is gone.

i think a reflection filter would help if you still want to use an LDC

well i might as well try an sm7b and see if that works for what i'm going for

if dave grahan can use it, then so can i

and about the waves, do you mean on the mix or the dry vocals?

[awakened]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

Word. I'd be willing to bet that the reason the OP's vocals aren't sitting well is that everything from about 5Khz on up is a riot of comb filtering while everything below 500Hz is a tubby mess. He'll probably do much better out in the open room with a good dynamic like the RE-20 or the SM7b.

Frank

frank is DA MAN!

[awakened]

Originally Posted by alehoe

and about the waves, do you mean on the mix or the dry vocals?

well, essentially both. if it was there in the dry vox, it will be there at the end of the mix. yes, you can cut it down to an almost inaudible level with EQ, but you really want to start with the cleanest dry take you can get.

EQ should be used as a shaping tool, not a band-aid

Originally Posted by alehoe

if dave grahan can use it, then so can i

alot more vocalists use it in-studio than you think

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by awakened

well, essentially both. if it was there in the dry vox, it will be there at the end of the mix. yes, you can cut it down to an almost inaudible level with EQ, but you really want to start with the cleanest dry take you can get.

EQ should be used as a shaping tool, not a band-aid

yeah that's probably my primary concern while recording vocals. i could get a far better sound if i EQ'd the life out of these vocals, like i've done before, but in the end it just doesn't sound right at all.

i guess now i have to decide whether i want to spend $300 on an sm7b or $600 on a condenser and a reflection filter