Cubase - Input Gain + gain setting?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I notice on Cubase SX3.1 each channel has an input gain knob. I've never used this for recording but am wondering if I should be using this?

I am recording using external preamps connected to my audio interface.

I normally have the signal peaking between -12db to -4db.

Should I then be adjusting the input gain in Cubase? Will this affect the audio quality?

[chris carter]

It's for mixdown if you need to adjust level pre-insert/fader. It doesn't have much use during tracking (although all rules are meant to be broken....)

99% of the time I use the trim knob is when I get records to mix and they tracked everything to -1dBFS () and I have to run around trimming everything down -12dB so I can get good gain structure.

[D. Rumble]

The input channels don't do anything during mixdown...

I use the input channels a lot when tracking. First of all, my preamp may say that my signal is not clipping, but the output of the preamp might still be too hot and cause digital clipping in Cubase because the signal is sent into Cubase too loud (not all preamps have an output level knob that you could turn down). Rather than turning down the gain on the preamp to get the output level down (which you would prefer not to, as you want the best possible signal on your pre), you can turn down the gain on the input channel in Cubase to where it's not clipping anymore.
Just do a little test recording, though, to make sure the signal coming out of your pre is indeed clean, and not clipped. It can always be that your preamp's clip LED is not responding well, and your signal inside the pre is clipped, even though the pre doesn't tell you it is.

Also, you can put plugins on the input channels. I wouldn't necessarily advise to do this in terms of EQ and compression, etc, but I always put a brick wall limiter plugin on the snare input tracks in Cubase as an extra way to prevent digital clipping.
The Kjaerhus Master Limiter is perfect for that (and free).

d.

[GGreen]

Turning down the gain in Cubase because its clipping wont have any affect on the clipped signal if its clipping inside the A/D.

If your getting digital overs then your A/D is being driven to hard to and reducing DIGITAL gain POST A/D wont stop the A/D clipping.

Its still clipped.

You need to turn the gain down BEFORE the A/D not after it.

Do people not even understand the basics anymore?

*sighs*

Gareth

[Lawrence]

The Input Gain is not meant to be used as a volume control in the mixer, as it is not suited for continuous level adjustments during playback. It can, however, be used to cut or boost the gain in various circumstances:

• To change the level of a signal before the effects section.

The level going into certain effects can change the way the signal is affected. A compressor, for example, can be “driven” harder by raising the Input Gain.

• To boost the level of poorly recorded signals.

To change the Input Gain, you need to press [Shift] and adjust the control (to avoid accidental gain changes). If you press [Alt]/[Option], you can adjust the Input Gain with a fader. Alternatively, you can also enter the desired number in the value field.

^ From the manual. I never use them, no need to. It's a legacy control that really has no use in Cubase given it's other two pre-FX level envelope stages. They probably need to just remove it.

Originally Posted by chris carter

99% of the time I use the trim knob is when I get records to mix and they tracked everything to -1dBFS () and I have to run around trimming everything down -12dB so I can get good gain structure.

Do you guys even use this software?

You can select all the audio in a project and type it -6 or whatever in the info bar (Volume?) - or grab any volume handle - to reduce the pre-fx level of all of it in about ... erhmm.. 3 seconds. Wow... talk about making things more difficult than need be.

[GorillaToast]

I use it in cases where I've got a complex Volume automation set up for a track and find I want to raise of lower the overall track volume w/o changing all the automation points.

[the_man361]

Originally Posted by GorillaToast

I use it in cases where I've got a complex Volume automation set up for a track and find I want to raise of lower the overall track volume w/o changing all the automation points.

not a bad idea.

if i find ive pidgeonholed myself into this annoying situation, ill usually get round it by simply setting up a group track and bussing the offending auido track to it, it gives you a 'master fader' for that track.

but i do try and avoid doing volume automation until im happy with the mix as much as can be.

[Hammer Mark]

Originally Posted by GorillaToast

I use it in cases where I've got a complex Volume automation set up for a track and find I want to raise of lower the overall track volume w/o changing all the automation points.

The input fader can't do this -- it applies only to audio on its way in to the DAW. Once audio is recorded and you've applied "complex volume automation" you're past that fader. I'm pretty sure there's a better way, but I know you can select all of the automation points and move the curve up or down to trim the level.

[chris carter]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Do you guys even use this software?

You can select all the audio in a project and type it -6 or whatever in the info bar (Volume?) - or grab any volume handle - to reduce the pre-fx level of all of it in about ... erhmm.. 3 seconds. Wow... talk about making things more difficult than need be.

Ummmm.... yes. A lot.

Yes, you could grab volume handles or whatever. I'm referring to when I'm mixing an outside record. I'm not going to run around the arrangement window clicking on every waveform and adjusting there. You say "3 seconds"; I say "0.5 seconds" to trim it. It's easier and faster for me. And then the whole channel is done whereas doing it at the waveform means chasing down every one on the track.... ugh. And then I might have to go back and change it so it's easier to use the trim - plus, it's the traditional way (call me old-skool...lol).

As well, there is no waveform to mess with when doing FX returns. Not to mention, there is no waveform to mess with when doing groups. The only universal way is with the trims. That's why they are there.

do YOU even use the software? (<-- jus' pokin' fun )

[Hammer Mark]

Originally Posted by chris carter

Ummmm.... yes. A lot.

Yes, you could grab volume handles or whatever. I'm referring to when I'm mixing an outside record. I'm not going to run around the arrangement window clicking on every waveform and adjusting there.

You can select every audio clip at once with a window selection and adjust gain for all those selected by grabbing and moving just one gain selector. It doesn't get more economical than that.

[chris carter]

Originally Posted by Hammer Mark

You can select every audio clip at once with a window selection and adjust gain for all those selected by grabbing and moving just one gain selector. It doesn't get more economical than that.

That would be simple, IF I wanted to do every one.

Anyway, to sum it up... I just wanted to explain the reason for the input trim. For many workflow scenarios, it's very important and convenient. For other workflow scenarios, it's unnecessary and other methods may work more conveniently. You have to figure out what method works best for your scenarios. If another method works better for you, then you can essentially ignore the input trims.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by chris carter

Ummmm.... yes. A lot.

Yes, you could grab volume handles or whatever. I'm referring to when I'm mixing an outside record. I'm not going to run around the arrangement window clicking on every waveform and adjusting there. do YOU even use the software? (<-- jus' pokin' fun )

I was commenting on your specific statement about people tracking "at -1" and you having to "run all over the project trimming stuff". And the reason I asked if you do is because you should know you don't have to click on every waveform. You can select 500 tracks at once and trim them all at once.

All the other things you mention about groups and FX returns above is irrelevant to my response to your earlier comment... and potential reasons for using the trims, but not what I was talking about. If you do that on audio tracks one at a time (Alt-trim for each and every audio track) rather than just go to the arrange window and do it for all the source tracks at once I have no idea how that could be faster.

I've used Cubase for many years and not once have I ever had to trim levels feeding FX or Group busses. I practice reasonable gain staging and leave plenty of headroom all through the mixer.

As to trimming source tracks, drag-select all the audio you want to adjust and type in -10 or whatever in the info bar. Done. Peace...

Cool web site btw... good luck to you.

[chris carter]

I think perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well. When I first set up a song to mix (one from outside, not one I tracked), I'm looking at the mixer window. That's just how I work becuase that's where I'm going to rough in all the faders and pans (typically my first step when mixing a song is rough fader and pan positions). It's not convenient to have to switch over to the arrangement window to select various waveforms. Plus, it's generally not ALL of them, so I have to match up which channel with which track. Not a major pain, but much more of a pan than just grabbing the trim knob for whichever channels I need to trim.

I think maybe my "run all over" comment, the sarcasm got carried away. It's really not much of a pain in the ass... it just annoys the hell out of me when people print levels so freakin' loud. So I tend to grumble as I trim stuff.

My comments about FX returns and the like was in reference to the OP's question.

Like I said before, it largely depends on your workflow. Perhaps for you, the trim knob doesn't work in your workflow. For me, the trim knob often comes in very handy. YMMV

[D. Rumble]

Originally Posted by gfx

Turning down the gain in Cubase because its clipping wont have any affect on the clipped signal if its clipping inside the A/D.

If your getting digital overs then your A/D is being driven to hard to and reducing DIGITAL gain POST A/D wont stop the A/D clipping.

Its still clipped.

You need to turn the gain down BEFORE the A/D not after it.

Do people not even understand the basics anymore?

*sighs*

Gareth

Did you even read my post?
A signal can be perfectly clear and unclipped, coming out of the pre/converter/interface, but the pre/converter/interface might be sending it out too loud, making it clip in Cubase, unless you turn down the gain. 9 out of 10 times it doesn't get clipped coming in, but the signal is just going past the 0db point on the Cubase input mixer. Turning down the gain on the input mixer usually keeps the signal from clipping. If you turn down the Cubase input mixer gain and the signal is still clipped, then you have no choice but turning down the gain on your pre/interface.

d.

[e-are]

Originally Posted by chris carter

Ummmm.... yes. A lot.

Yes, you could grab volume handles or whatever. I'm referring to when I'm mixing an outside record. I'm not going to run around the arrangement window clicking on every waveform and adjusting there. You say "3 seconds"; I say "0.5 seconds" to trim it. It's easier and faster for me. And then the whole channel is done whereas doing it at the waveform means chasing down every one on the track.... ugh. And then I might have to go back and change it so it's easier to use the trim - plus, it's the traditional way (call me old-skool...lol).

As well, there is no waveform to mess with when doing FX returns. Not to mention, there is no waveform to mess with when doing groups. The only universal way is with the trims. That's why they are there.

do YOU even use the software? (<-- jus' pokin' fun )

He's Right. Also, there are many ways to do this. This is definitely one ovem. I do this often also.