Low End Theory

[Heartfelt]

Everyone has a different personality. I have a bit of lawyer in me and I enjoy stating and building a case.
Here lately, people are getting their feathers in a ruffle when anyone says anything about a piece of gear they don't own.

Why?

My thought is they think that if you haven't used a piece, you can't possibly know what it is like.

• Do you have to have a Neve to know it is colored?
• Do you have to have a distressor to know it can spank?
• Do you have to own a Daking to know it is a Trident flavored pre?
• Do you have to have an Avant in your hand to know it is a rebranded mic and that you can get it for half the cost?
• Do you have to own an SM7 to tell someone that it is well respected and used on countless albums?
• Why do manufacturers post clips of their equipment in usage? Is it to encourage you to buy it based on the clip?
• Why do people do reviews? Is it to encourage you to buy a piece of gear they like?
• Why do we have sites like this? If you can never share the information given by a fellow musician or engineer then what is the point?
• If you read an honest statement by another individual, are you forbidden to tell someone what you heard?

There is nothing inherently wrong with good reporting. Society as a whole
depends on it. People don't have to be murdered to report a murder. People
don't have to be a stock broker to report that the economy changed world-wide.
You don't even have to be an athlete to announce a sporting event on a
popular station.

Yet come here and say anything about someone's gear and not own it... and people get
upset. We are getting way to sensitive here and we need to get
over it.

If someone wants to report on their usage, by all means they should. If someone
wants to report what they heard in a clip, what they saw another user post or
what they were told, then again, by all means they should if they do so accurately.



If that is wrong to do so, then this site needs to shut down. NO more
shootouts. NO more eval clips. Manufactures need to cease the production of all
media relating to their product. Resellers need to stop the gear evals, need to
stop making review propaganda videos because it is wrong for us to use any of
their efforts, media, or information in making an informed decision. We are simply
supposed to call sweetwater and order piece after piece for evaluation and THEN
only THEN......... are we allowed to think.


Discuss intelligently, flame or rant. You are what you choose.

Don't take me too seriously

humbly
Rob


PS. Feel free to put me on ignore. It won't hurt my feelings.

Edited: avoiding inflammatory language.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Everyone has a different personality. I have a bit of lawyer in me and I enjoy stating and building a case.
Here lately, people are getting their feathers in a ruffle when anyone says anything about a piece of gear they don't own.

Why?

My thought is they think that if you haven't used a piece, you can't possibly know what it is like.

• Do you have to have a Neve to know it is colored?
• Do you have to have a distressor to know it can spank?
• Do you have to own a Daking to know it is a Trident flavored pre?
• Do you have to have an Avant in your hand to know it is a rebranded mic and that you can get it for half the cost?
• Do you have to own an SM7 to tell someone that it is well respected and used on countless albums?
• Why do manufacturers post clips of their equipment in usage? Is it to encourage you to buy it based on the clip?
• Why do people do reviews? Is it to encourage you to buy a piece of gear they like?
• Why do we have sites like this? If you can never share the information given by a fellow musician or engineer then what is the freaking point?
• If you read an honest statement by another individual, are you forbidden to tell someone what you heard?

There is nothing inherently wrong with good reporting. Society as a whole
depends on it. People don't have to be murdered to report a murder. People
don't have to be a stock broker to report that the economy changed world-wide.
Hell, you don't even have to be an athlete to announce a sporting event on a
popular station.

Yet come here and say anything about someone's gear and not own it... and people get
their panties in a wad. We are getting way to sensitive here and we need to get
over it. Some of you seriously crack me up.

If someone wants to report on their usage, by all means they should. If someone
wants to report what they heard in a clip, what they saw another user post or
what they were told, then again, by all means they should if they do so accurately.



If that is wrong to do so, then this site needs to shut down. NO more
shootouts. NO more eval clips. Manufactures need to cease the production of all
media relating to their product. Resellers need to stop the gear evals, need to
stop making review propaganda videos because it is wrong for us to use any of
their efforts, media, or information in making an informed decision. We are simply
supposed to call sweetwater and order piece after piece for evaluation and THEN
only THEN......... are we allowed to think.


Discuss intelligently, flame or rant. You are what you choose.
humbly
Rob


PS. Feel free to put me on ignore. It won't hurt my feelings.

must be that time of the month

[staticwhitesound]

i don't see anything wrong with reporting!

to be clear though, i always say when i'm speaking from experience vs. when i'm saying something that i've just heard. anything else would be dishonest/disingenuous imo.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by staticwhitesound

i don't see anything wrong with reporting!

to be clear though, i always say when i'm speaking from experience vs. when i'm saying something that i've just heard. anything else would be dishonest/disingenuous imo.

me too I've always made a point of that just so the GS goons don't come after me

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by staticwhitesound

i don't see anything wrong with reporting!

to be clear though, i always say when i'm speaking from experience vs. when i'm saying something that i've just heard. anything else would be dishonest/disingenuous imo.

That, in a nutshell is what I am saying.

[quickmill]

I can see this from both sides. I feel similar to you in a way but can also understand people disregarding hearsay. I think it depends on the flow of the thread, how it's presented and who's presenting it.

Low end , I think is largely made up of people like me (weekend warrior dumb asses). Because of our inexperience we thrive on hearsay, however, I feel common sense allows you to separate the good from the bad. If you're here for long it's not hard to tell who you can put stock in and who you can't. That being said, anybody putting lots of trust in anonymous internet strangers is maybe a bit of an idiot.

Certainly there are people taking any of this way too seriously.

[AnthonySpinali]

I recently read this thread....

ssl vs neve

This guy gets totally flamed for referencing a Steely Dan recording. He said the Steely Dan record was an example of a particular console. The flamer claims that he has no direct knowledge of the equipment. I don't understand this philosophy. I think knowing what console was used on a particular album can be useful info. It's empirical data. It's the only objective info you can share. Everything else is opinion.

I've recorded two records (as a guitar player... Not an engineer.) on an SSL. I cannot honestly say I have any valuable info on SSL products from my experience. But if you like the mix of one of those records I can say to you that it was mixed on an SSL. So in my opinion the data outways my opinion based on my experience.

In addition if you've had a bad experience with a product you're likely to be very biased. I don't like Gibson guitars because I've had so many terrible experiences with them. However, I can objectively say that Slash and Jimi Page have had pretty decent careers using them. My point is that third party info is often far more objective than personal experience and this makes it more valuable.

Anthony

[Chris Lago]

I've been getting flamed a lot lately!

[XHipHop]

Damn thought this thread might be about the Tribe Called Quest album.

[AnthonySpinali]

Originally Posted by quickmill

Low end , I think is largely made up of people like me (weekend warrior dumb asses). Because of our inexperience we thrive on hearsay, however, I feel common sense allows you to separate the good from the bad.

I must say I think High End is filled with the same folks. Honestly just more obnoxious and less actual experience. There are obvious exceptions but some of those clowns are totally out of place.tutt

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

Damn thought this thread might be about the Tribe Called Quest album.

Haha funny as hell.

But seriously, I put the KMS105 vs sm7b post just for you guys in the Low End Theory forum. I spent 20 bucks just so I could do a small comparison to post here. Even if it's only a subjective vocal test, It's always cool to hear microphone shootouts.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I've been getting flamed a lot lately!

I wouldn't take it too personally some people just have nothing better to do. And most importantly as was said earlier anyone that takes a bunch of strangers on the internet too seriously is a bit of an idiot themselves. Though I feel I can trust a fair number of people on this forum, you included in that list. I respect their views and opinions. I posted a really crappy demo a little while ago and I got flamed for that despite making perfectly clear that the performance was an issue. It's like sorry I had a spur of the moment idea that I wanted to lay down and see if anyone else thought it might have potential. I played the same thing for some friends locally and they actually thought it was decent. So who knows with anything at the end of the day it's what you make of it and when you deal with complete strangers hidden behind a computer screen at a desk just take it with a grain of salt some people will be friendly, helpful, and knowledgeable and others will just be sarcastic, unhelpful, etc.

[Chris Lago]

Haha but seriously, what pissed me off the most was when Ben sent me a private message saying that I had cheated on his mic shootout test and chose the more expensive mics because I checked the answers... Wow, I guess I'm not entitled to say anything about any brand unless it's something good eh? Sure... Praise Beezneez mics because they are hand made... Dear God.

Some people should get over themselves.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Haha but seriously, what pissed me off the most was when Ben sent me a private message saying that I had cheated on his mic shootout test and chose the more expensive mics because I checked the answers... Wow, I guess I'm not entitled to say anything about any brand unless it's something good eh? Sure... Praise Beezneez mics because they are hand made... Dear God.

Some people should get over themselves.

that's just pathetic lol

[Chris Lago]

I know, which is why I could care less about his microphones. By the way, I bought a MXL V69me today and I'll be putting a Nos Mullard from Bowie, I am so excited! This mic sounds great once you change the tube. I'll be posting something about it for sure.

[Bodoc]

is when it becomes difficult to make the distinction between sharing genuine info/opinion and just a cacophonous echo chamber of hearsay.

[willsing]

I think the grain of salt comment sums it up. I also like the line "don't overthink it" (our egos can tend to tie us up into knots, so it's good to forgive or loosen up a little).

As far as having product knowledge goes, how much attention would you pay to a review if the reviewer had never even handled the product? Not to say that one cannot know something about the product without trying it. As for objectivity vs subjectivity, it's mostly going to be subjective. Just look for patterns with strings of users.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by willsing

I think the grain of salt comment sums it up. I also like the line "don't overthink it" (our egos can tend to tie us up into knots, so it's good to forgive or loosen up a little).

As far as having product knowledge goes, how much attention would you pay to a review if the reviewer had never even handled the product? Not to say that one cannot know something about the product without trying it. As for objectivity vs subjectivity, it's mostly going to be subjective. Just look for patterns with strings of users.

I agree, but then I don't know how I feel about members doing vocal shootouts and us not being able to share our opinion? I've never tried a U47 myself (Not yet, will do very soon), but I've heard lots of recordings with it and I know it's a great mic.

[Insomniaclown]

Originally Posted by Bodoc

is when it becomes difficult to make the distinction between sharing genuine info/opinion and just a cacophonous echo chamber of hearsay.

Agreed. I think that a little bit of practical knowledge is needed. However, you don't really need to go out and try the product for yourself to get it. Product demos on youtube, mercenary audio, gearslutz, and others can give a decent look at a product that will give the listener a good idea about its capabilities. Then I think they have what they need to comment on that equipment since they have a reference to draw on.

[hello people]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

My thought is they think that if you haven't used a piece, you can't possibly know what it is like.

You'd make a shit lawyer

[networkacid]

It depends on what the thread is about. if someone asks for peoples' experience with a certain piece of gear then a lot of "i heard this from xxx" or "it's all over yyy album" is not really responding to what they're asking. If you can't answer any questions someone might ask about how someone else used it or how it was used on the album it's not necessarily useful information.

That said, you have to be a bit of a jerk if you flame someone who's just trying to be helpful.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by networkacid

That said, you have to be a bit of a jerk if you flame someone who's just trying to be helpful.

I agree.

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by hello people

You'd make a shit lawyer

Well aren't you the nicest! Thanks so much!

[Heartfelt]

sorry Chris.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Discuss intelligently, flame or rant. You are what you choose.

Don't take me too seriously

humbly
Rob.

wow dude, eloquent yet completely frustrated sounding. How did you manage to keep it together so well when you are obviously frustrated?

well done!

you're right of course. first hand experience is also not always better since often if you OWN the piece of gear, you may well NOT own any competiting gear, so you're probably either loving or hating that piece of gear but it will not be terribly helpful to someone wanting shopping advice.

we all get sucked into talking about what we own or have used. I try to make it clear if I haven't used other gear on a list if I can only offer advice about one piece, although like you're describing I did recently try to help someone out by googling the other devices on their list to try and come up with a helpful checklist of pros and cons combined with my personal experience with one or more of the devices.

it's still all heresy though isn't it?

opinion, conjecture, bias, that's why it's so fun! :-)

Just as an aside, not that I'm paranoid or arrogant enough to think people talk about me behind my back (well, if I was, it would be paranoia...), but in case I've ever dissed you along the lines you're talking about then I do apologize. Sometimes I get carried away, and as with email, it's far to easy to type and then hit that submit button before thinking twice.

recently I've done just that a couple times and then gone in and quickly deleted my posts LoL. too much tension in my life these days I guess, I don't like to let it come out on here as a side effect!

anyway, totally agree with you. I think maybe a situation where that doesn't work is when one doesn't know how experienced the person giving the opinion really is. then it's easier to take the "I own/use this device" people over the "I don't own it but this is what I've heard/read/understand about it's design" people.

cheers,
Don

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by hello people

You'd make a shit lawyer

does shit need a lawyer? I had no idea...

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

You didn't say if you cheated or not. Did you? If you did, it reall can skew your persective.

Also, you are the first and only person on GS that has an issue with Ben's mics. I still bet he has a ZERO return ratio.

either way, it's opinion and is perfectly ok. I honestly can't think of any piece of gear that doesn't get love from some and hate from others here, behringer, UA, avalon, sennheiser, AT, la2a even.

agree or not, at least someone has an opinion about beeznees mics (sorry if I spelled it wrong, can't freakin check while typing a message with this board's stupid code), nice to see an individual opinion rather than a follower type opinion.

who cares if Chris "cheated"? what's surprising and kind of arrogant and paranoid (sounds like my theme today!) is that the guy pm'd him about it accusingly. that's just kind of sad if you ask me.

but still, the point of this thread OP I 100% agree with. but I also think we need to take it easy on each other, we all have something in common, a lust for pro audio gear. Let's share the love people LoL ;-)

cheers
Don

[Heartfelt]

Don,
well said on many points. Hearing your point of view on
Chris's situation, I agree. Having an opinion is no crime and it easy real easy to flip and become
the forum police. I just did it the very thing I complained about. Sorry Chris.

I will be editing my post.



My concern is not people talking about me. I am not fragile enough
to let GS ruin my day.

It is a bit silly when people feel another's opinion is cause to sling
mud and call names. I have seen a rash of attacks against people sharing in
Low End and High End and all across the board and it seems a little out of hand.

I am one who can rant with a smile on my face. I am not angry and have
no hard feelings with anyone. Again, don't take me too seriously.

[aclarson]

If I think I have something to offer, be it from personal experience, reading the experience of someone else, or reasoning out a potential answer based on many people's experience and accepted industry opinion, then I state it. Everybody knows or should know it's an opinion board, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt. You get to know certain individuals behavior if you're an active member of a community, so you know to what degree you should consider their advice.

If someone comes along that offers advice in good faith, they should really be treated in good faith. If they venture into the realm of making shit up about stuff they don't know anything about, maybe a polite rebuke or just providing a differing opinion will help correct their influence, and maybe they'll learn something that they can pass along.

If they're a troll, the ONLY way to defeat them is TOTALLY IGNORING them.

My feeling: sticks and stones, man. If I'm trying to be nice guy and someone flames me for it, well, they can go play a nice game of hide-and-go-****-themselves.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by aclarson

they can go play a nice game of hide-and-go-****-themselves.

I just liked that quote, wanted to say as much. :-)

lots of good food for thought in here, and thanks for the reply Rob.

cheers!
Don