Drum mics or trigger for metal music

[Peyton]

whats better for metal music and kind of a shitty room for recording

[JonCraig]

whichever one sounds best.

--jon

[Peyton]

o that was a big help

[JonCraig]

have you tried both?

[Peyton]

i've tried shitty versions of both and they sounded the same althought the triggers sounded cleaner

[Toad]

Even if you use triggers, you'll still need some "real" drums in there somewhere
to be convincing.

[Bones]

Just my opinion ... but I think that drum triggers (ie. samples) will ALWAYS sound better unless the recording chain / acoustic kit sound / mics / room ... etc etc is up to scratch.

What I mean is that although I PERSONALLY prefer real drums, I feel that the quickest way (and possibly cheapest way) to a kick-ass sound is with samples.

I think it is MUCH quicker to get the type of sounds that would normally require a sophisticated and expensive recording chain.

Like I said ... just my opinion.

Ciao

[Peyton]

Originally Posted by Bones

Just my opinion ... but I think that drum triggers (ie. samples) will ALWAYS sound better unless the recording chain / acoustic kit sound / mics / room ... etc etc is up to scratch.

What I mean is that although I PERSONALLY prefer real drums, I feel that the quickest way (and possibly cheapest way) to a kick-ass sound is with samples.

I think it is MUCH quicker to get the type of sounds that would normally require a sophisticated and expensive recording chain.

Like I said ... just my opinion.

Ciao

thats what i was thinking but wasent sure

[Exsanguis]

If the room is truly awful and the gear isn't all that great, I'd trigger everything, but also mic up everything as best as possible as well. Even if the real mic sounds aren't stellar, mixing them in with the samples provides a more dynamic and realistic sound. Also, don't trigger live, recording the samples coming out of a module. Personally, I wouldn't use a module, but if you want to, you could use it and record the MIDI out of it, so you could choose sounds for it later(be aware of latency, tho). My preferred way of using triggers is to record the actual trigger signals onto their own tracks, then use Drumagog, Sound Replacer, etc. to trigger samples later on. I've had to mix songs where the people just triggered their entire kit through a module(which wasn't even set up very well) and recorded the outputs of the module, and that's it. No mics, no trigger signals, nothing. I was stuck with their cheesy reverb heavy samples without any dynamics and double triggering everywhere. Yeah, it sucked tutt . Hope this helps.

[Q Value]

since we are talking about metal kick topic, i would like to ask you guys 2 questions;
1. the drum was recorded in conventional way.. kinda pop sounding i can say.. since it's a metal double pedal drum, i've tried to boost around 3-4khz to get that click sound.. doesnt work so far.
2. any quickie compressor setting? ive tried but havent got desired one yet.. one more thing, the drummer didnt hit it consistently. let say -7db on the first hit, -4-3db for the second one. what if i use limiter? eventhough it'll sound silly (not right in MO) i guess..

cheers..

[Bones]

What eq are you using to boost at 3-4K?? Parametric with variable Q factor, or fixed Q ..... hardware, mixer or software?

Compressor for the uneven kick tracking ... faster attack and get the threshold right to catch the transients.

Cheers

[George Necola]

you "must" (sorry talking so general) use the original bassdrumsound because you want get a triggersound witch is exactly fitting in the mix (because of the roomambience). For the last project I used only trigger and the result was ok, but the bassdrum doesn't fit in the whole drummix.

You should go for a little originalbassdrum and add trigger. if you use the trigger, because the drummer could'nt play the doublebass in time than use only trigger and deal with the ambience in the vst (I use Fxpansion and battery 2).

Try a multicomp on the bassdrum or the trigger.. gets much fatter and you can add topend to the kick.

[George Necola]

oh yeah.. I only use URS plugins! (the fulltec is greta, also the A-series).
http://www.ursplugins.com/

whoooow..

before I was totally into sonalksis plugins.
http://www.sonalksis.com/

the UAD-1 (the extension PCI-card) plugins are also very good for surgical.
http://www.uaudio.com/products/digital/

Try also the elementalaudio equim
http://www.elementalaudio.com/products/eqium/index.html


good luck man

[Peyton]

so if i were to use mics i should compress the bass drum? I use a mixer for drums now and i actually want really low end deep bass sound but i'm geting a really empty soung instead

[Farview]

In general, assuming a newish head, hard beaters, and a well tuned drum, you should be able to suck out some 400 Hz add 4k with a medium wide Q and send that to a compressor or a limiter. If the kick was dull sounding to begin with, you will really have to fight with it to make it work. I usually have a medium fast attack with a really fast release on the comp.

[Peyton]

if i posted adrum track would you be able to tell me what i need to do?

Drum Track Here

[Q Value]

peyton.. that really sounds so drumagog..
nah, i dont want to comment on that. leave it to the pros around..

[Schexnayder]

Jon Craig will laugh at me on this one, but being a little metalhead myself I have to ask the question...what type of metal are you doing?

Typically in most metal situations where you are at 200 bpm and have kick drum blast beats with hyperblast snare hits (yes those are the dorky terms we have) you will pad up your kick and snare so that no noise comes out of it and you will ONLY use triggers...while all other drum parts like toms/hats/etc. are organic with overheads.

The reason for this is that most metal fans want a kick sound without any bottom on it, usually boosted at like 1.5-2.5 khz to sound like a THICK wood block being knocked into your chest.

If you did try the organic route though, another trick I have read alot about is splitting your kick into two separate tracks and using one as "the bottom" and one "the top." You would EQ the bottom, rolling off all low mids and all, so that it is one constant booooooom through the blast beats...then, on your higher part you would obviously roll off the bottom to obtain some punch, while keeping that transient wood block hit. This allows you to keep bottom, but maintain a chest caving experience for the listener.

That is just a thought though, you should try and find Andy Sneep on here...he has done some FANTASTIC metal records.

[Schexnayder]

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention...one reason alot of metal drummers use triggers (ignore my blasphemy) is that in their extremely fast mayhem they lose their intensity during faster sections where the insenity SHOULD be. Unfortunately that would cause them to lose their metal cred...make them sound like sissies. I say this, because forcing a trigger may depend more on how good of a drummer you have.

[Peyton]

so should i use 2 bass drum mics or a bass drum mic and any other mic

[George Necola]

here an example of only trigger. sounds are from battery 2. the bitch is compressed with the cubaseinternal multibandcomp and URS EQed.

this not a professional recording:
http://www.lager9.ch/dmdocuments/AsS...honyInAmok.mp3

it has much low end, but I sucked out a lot (-4dB) of 300 to 500Hz because there is the bass playing and some lowends from the guitar.

cheers

[Schexnayder]

If you have the track space try two mics. The only thing is that you have to worry about phase and ruining transients by combining the two.

[Curtis Franklin]

this pic was kicking around the forums before.
who needs a room when you have "overheads" like these.
also, look at the snare: its triggered. im sure the kick is too.
my point being, do both, then you have options. options are a professionals best friend.

[E Orjatsalo]

Originally Posted by Gearslutzer

you "must" (sorry talking so general) use the original bassdrumsound because you want get a triggersound witch is exactly fitting in the mix (because of the roomambience). For the last project I used only trigger and the result was ok, but the bassdrum doesn't fit in the whole drummix.

There is always the option to edit the drums, put samples there and then play it through a PA-system in a good sounding room, put some mics in that room and record that sound as room ambience. I have used it a few times and it works quite well.

I almost always use samples in kick drum when I'm mixing heavy metal stuff, but sometimes there are players who really can play and tune their kick drums properly and then there is no need for samples.

[George Necola]

reamping.. cool, but expensive.. you need a good room, good mics, a P.A. -system.. my version is cheaper

[AlanNWC]

my experience with metal records has always been that if you're tracking on the cheap, trigger the kick.
get a good solid sample of your drum and run a program like drumagog.

when you start getting real fast kick parts you can lose all hit definition and your drum becomes a low rumble rather than having the attack you're looking for.
if you want to try a 2 mic set-up try a d112 and a 421, you'll get all your low from the d112 and more attack than you'd ever need from the 421.

i dont like triggering snares or toms, they just never really sound right to me.

hope that helps.

[George Necola]

and if we are talking cheap, get an old big speaker from your hifi, mount this to woodrack, place it in front of the kick, get a SM58 into the kick and you have a fat punchy kick for 100$.

[Prickstein]

A good sample to use on fast double kick type songs is the kick drum hit that starts off "5 minutes alone" by pantera.
I usually hate using triggers on kick drum but this one has helped me out when i need a consistant "click"

[cfjis]

Originally Posted by Prickstein

A good sample to use on fast double kick type songs is the kick drum hit that starts off "5 minutes alone" by pantera.
I usually hate using triggers on kick drum but this one has helped me out when i need a consistant "click"

nice. I'd never thought to grab that hit.

I'd use both trigger and mic, if you can... blending the 2 will give you a consistent sound without sounding too unnatural.

One thing I like to do is actually sample the drummer's kick & snare (but, take some time to get a good sample.. i.e. tune the drums well), and then use them as the triggered samples... then, you'll have less of a problem sounding weird.
\m/

-CJ

[thewelfareline]

i was wondering what you are using as the "brain" while using the triggers on the actual drums? i use drumagog for going in aftarwards and replacing kicks and snares. but while using the actual trigger devices are you going to a midi brain?