My new demo

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Here is a song I'm planning to record by a lovely 80's band called Visage the song is called Fade To Grey. This is just a demo/scratch track.

Gear Used: Focusrite Saffire PRO 10 i/o interface into SIIG Firewire 400 expresscard using Monster Cable Pro Link firewire cable DAW software is Reaper 64 bit.

Acoustic Guitar: Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500R DI using Mogami Gold Cable and EMG acoustic piezo pickup

Bass Guitar: Fender MIM Jazz Bass with bone nut and Dimarzio Ultra Jazz Pickups (new pots and electronics PTB tone control) DI using Mogami Gold Cable

Vocals: Recorded with CAD M177, Stedman Proscreen XL popfilter, Auralex Aural Xpanders, Blue Kiwi quad cable. Light EQ, comp, and verb applied to voice (basic settings using the Reaper plugs). Most importantly NO AUTO TUNE!

Drums: light EQ only using Reaper plugs. Blue Kiwi quad mic cables and auralex aural expanders used.

Overheads: spaced pair of CAD M177 about 3 feet above kit and each mic about 6 feet away from snare drum (that is my center of kit).

Snare drum: Shure SM57 about 2 inches above rim at a slight angle pointed at center of drumhead.

Kick drum (with both heads and a kikbrik inside): Audio-Technica ATM250, Earthworks kickpad. Mic about 3 inches off of resonant head toward center of drum on axis.

Toms: Sennheiser e609 about 3-4 inches above each tom at slight angle pointing mostly toward edge of drum but angled so some of the attack is captured from the center of the drum.

It's not perfect it's only a demo. So it may be a little pitchy and I screwed up the vocals (I came in early somewhere). And obviously I hate DI acoustic and I plan to do multiple guitars on the real thing.

But I'd like some general feedback and I figured this would let some people here some low end gear in action. So thanks for your time and hopefully you enjoy.

This is me doing everything btw....not the band

[mixedupsteve]

Too much snare and drums in general.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Too much snare and drums in general.

yeah I did a pretty crappy job mixing lol

[jimcroisdale]

The snare sounds like a fish hitting a bath!

Perhaps another mic on the underside to get a bit of snap from the snares? Don't forget to flip the phase.

Jim

[Blast9]

Hi - try re-amping the bass through an amp sim or a real amp - compression to smooth it out, EQ to fatten.

I agree about the drums - can't really hear the tone of the kik as its low in the mix but it sounds dull/muffled. (Is your room really dead-sounding?)

I think you should try a brighter/ less neutral mic for your voice - something with more detail 3-6K as your voice is smooth/dark.



Also try to relax on your vox takes! it will sound tonally better and more natural.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Hi - try re-amping the bass through an amp sim or a real amp - compression to smooth it out, EQ to datten.

I agree about the drums - can't really hear the tone of the kik as its low in the mix but it sounds dull/muffled. (Is your room really dead-sounding?)

I think you should try a brighter/ less neutral mic for your voice - something with more detail 3-6K as your voice is smooth/dark.



Also try to relax on your vox takes! it will sound tonally better and more natural.

yeah I'm gonna redo everything. But the kit is kinda crummy (Pearl Export from 2002...it's decent but the bass drum has never been one of it's strong points at least for my style/likings). And my room is my basement with DIY treatment. It could be much better. So both the actual bass drum and room are kinda dead/muffled. The drums are actually going to be replaced with a brand new Mapex kit in about 2-3 weeks depending on when she comes in. All maple shells, the works. So that should be a lot better. I did close mic the kick so I could try to mix it all up a bit better than what I did on the MP3 I attached above.

I'm still looking for a better vocal mic and am open to low end suggestions.

I mainly just got it together it wasn't well mixed by any means.

And sorry I'm a naturally tense person so I definitely need to relax more all the time. haha

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

The snare sounds like a fish hitting a bath!

Perhaps another mic on the underside to get a bit of snap from the snares? Don't forget to flip the phase.

Jim

yay an excuse to get a Heil PR20/22 for the top and I can stick my 57 on the bottom

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

yeah I'm gonna redo everything. But the kit is kinda crummy (Pearl Export from 2002...it's decent but the bass drum has never been one of it's strong points at least for my style/likings). And my room is my basement with DIY treatment. It could be much better. So both the actual bass drum and room are kinda dead/muffled. The drums are actually going to be replaced with a brand new Mapex kit in about 2-3 weeks depending on when she comes in. All maple shells, the works. So that should be a lot better. I did close mic the kick so I could try to mix it all up a bit better than what I did on the MP3 I attached above.

I'm still looking for a better vocal mic and am open to low end suggestions.

I mainly just got it together it wasn't well mixed by any means.

And sorry I'm a naturally tense person so I definitely need to relax more all the time. haha

Keep at it!

Re low end vox mics - I dunno really! - A Gauge or SP C1 may well your voice! (A brighter more open-sounding mic basically) - I have a Red5 RV10 which is kinda 414-ish with good mid-range detail (not honky though), and fairly bright but not overly so

[KeithMoonwannabe]

this might not be totally low end per se but what would you guys think about a Neumann KMS105 on my voice.

I figured it could double as a stage and studio mic. And I've seen em go for $400-$550 before (used and new as ebay deals)

I suppose I could try a a SP C1 or Gauge ECM87.

[rivalrysound]

for a demo it sounds pretty good, it just needs some more spacing with the guitar and that'll fil in the mix a whole lot more I'm really digging the toms

[Heartfelt]

I like the toms too. They sound great. Some other things sound a bit distant from the source.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

this might not be totally low end per se but what would you guys think about a Neumann KMS105 on my voice.

I figured it could double as a stage and studio mic. And I've seen em go for $400-$550 before (used and new as ebay deals)

I suppose I could try a a SP C1 or Gauge ECM87.

Hey what about your Sennheiser E965? isn't that a hand-held condenser for live? Might have the perfect upper-mid boost for your voice! [sorry... just saw - its a e945 you have]

What about that Beta 57 you were thinking bout?

Neumann KMS 105 - maybe not for your voice as that mic is flat to around 7K then rises gradually to 10K - silky smooth/clear.

However, I have read that it has a steep hi-pass filter around 120hz so perhaps thats why the guy I mention below used it with a beta 57, as it rolls off lower (fuller bottom end) - actually looking at the freq chart it is about 20db down at 50hz compared to the SM57/58 - down around 10db at 50hz

Anyway I chose a Shure Beta 87A over the Neumann in the end:

1) Cos it was cheaper

2) I've heard it said many times the KMS105 is not so good with feedback rejection for live use.

It is however a mighty fine, detailed mic silky high end - I did a session where the guy made me sing into that together with a beta 57 -awesome!

[stickers]

I don't know about for studio vocals, but the beta 57 is really sweet for live vocals. I actually like it better than the beta 58.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I could always pick up a SP C1 or something similar to record vocals and then use the Beta 57 live.

Cuz in the studio having something like a Heil PR22 or Beta 57 could be useful for miking one side of my snare and then throwing the SM57 on the other side. Just an idea.

That could probably be done under $400 too.

[theblue1]

Not too bad for an early shot. The guitar and drums come unglued rhythmically, though, more than I'd like. And you're right, get a mic on that guitar, lose the D.I.

FWIW, I remember that song well. I was a punk but I had a thing for synths and my erstwhile GF was a club-hopper so I would sneak over into the synth pop side of things for a walk on the not-so-wild side from time to time. I have the vinyl... somewhere.

[James Meeker]

Snare sounds dead. Cymbals sound gongy. Really not enjoying this.... tons of mistakes in the playing, not feeling the performance, vocals are really bad.... not sure why this even exists. Hurts my ears a bit.

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Snare sounds dead. Cymbals sound gongy. Really not enjoying this.... tons of mistakes in the playing, not feeling the performance, vocals are really bad.... not sure why this even exists. Hurts my ears a bit.

Ouch. Kind of harsh words, but not far from the truth.

This is an example of the gear being secondary to the performance. What kind of critique are you looking for exactly?

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Ouch. Kind of harsh words, but not far from the truth.

This is an example of the gear being secondary to the performance. What kind of critique are you looking for exactly?

well like I said I knew the performance kinda blew I was just getting rough ideas down. Nothing too serious mainly just so I could get a feel for the arrangement. I'm not trying to make money off this or anything lol. I'm not a great singer or bassist and I work like 60-70 hours a week and go to school full time so I also don't really stay in practice on guitar or drums like I used to. It's more of a hobby that I'm passionate about not my primary source of income or something.

I mainly wanted critique to what gear/advice you'd have if you started with that as an idea. Maybe where you'd take it on limited means. I was hoping with this type of sample I'd be able to pick a better mic for my voice since I've never really been happy with any of the mics I've tried so far.

Obviously everything is going to be re-recorded. And unfortunately I have everything set up in my parents house so my drums sound pretty awful it's a very dead sounding room to start with. I don't even really have muffling on the drums or cymbals that's why it's kinda sad for me. But part of that could be the mixing and effects (or lack thereof). I'm sure if I wanted to work on this mix (which I don't), it could sound better.

The new drumset should help the drum sound a lot, I hope. If not I may take my drums to another room or record at one of my friends studios.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Snare sounds dead. Cymbals sound gongy. Really not enjoying this.... tons of mistakes in the playing, not feeling the performance, vocals are really bad.... not sure why this even exists. Hurts my ears a bit.

and it's not that harsh of a critique. I'm worse talking about it myself. And I'd rather hear that it's awful and get the truth than be mislead into something.

I know the performance wasn't stellar, I think part of the cymbals and overall drum sound is the room. Because my cymbals are really nice and I wouldn't describe them as gongy usually but they are K Customs so they are kinda dry, trashy, and dark naturally.

[Chrisc_o]

In that case I would suggest practicing more with the stuff you have got. Your gear can produce decent results at the very least, so I would save my money if I were you.

Learn to get the most of the gear you already have.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

In that case I would suggest practicing more with the stuff you have got. Your gear can produce decent results at the very least, so I would save my money if I were you.

Learn to get the most of the gear you already have.

oh I'm planning to take some voice lessons. I just want something more suited to my voice. I know I can make decent recordings with what I have but I've never been happy with my voice in recordings it just doesn't feel right.

I've tried different mics and they all tend to be kinda dark or blah sounding. But most of the mics I try are unhyped sounding. Groove Tubes, Audio Technica 40 series, CAD, etc.

People had said to try the Studio Projects C1 so perhaps I'll order that and a Beta 57. I know I can use both of those mics. I could add the B57 as a second snare mic and use the C1 as a mono room mic.

[Blast9]

BTW I was just thinking... perhaps you should just get a decent outboard pre/EQ to use with what you already have?

With my C1 suggestion I'm just worried you might end up with "harsh" instead of "bright-in-a-good-way" which would be just totally >>> tutt LOL

-

Also...Voice lessons >>> totally invaluable if you have a great teacher, one who can cover physiology and psychology as part of the course. You won't regret

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Blast9

BTW I was just thinking... perhaps you should just get a decent outboard pre/EQ to use with what you have?

With my C1 suggestion I'm just worried you might end up with "harsh" instead of "bright-in-a-good-way" which would be just totally >>> tutt LOL

well then for now I will just pick up a Beta 57 I think it would work on my voice at least live and I know I can find some good things to use it on recording (snare drum, guitar cabs to name a few).

Typically what type of inexpensive preamp (let's say under a grand, I'll be realistic) would pull out that chracter from a neutral mic. Only problem I've seen is it'll be a while before I can buy a nice preamp that's why I was hoping maybe a mic with a different character could be done on the cheap.

In the mean time I will start planning out how I want to record the real version of this song. I'll have a 6 piece Mapex PRO M maple kit with my Zildjian K Custom Hybrid cymbals.

[Blast9]

I'll let others chime in but I'm seriously blown away by the EQ on my Chameleon Labs CL 7602... A little goes a loooong way with this beastie... Shiny top end shelf, great wide Q mids, beefy bass, all selectable bands

[staticwhitesound]

Hey there, A lot of how a voice should sound within a song depends on the context - the song itself, so I'm thinking this could be the best path:

1. Record the instrumentation to a couple of your songs in a full blown arrangement, with your band, or however you see them being fully realized.

2. Start taking passes at vocals with a good, neutral dynamic mic that takes EQ well, and just a clean, neutral pre. Once you have those takes down take a lot of time playing around to find the EQ subtleties that work with your voice within the given songs you're working with. When you find that you're EQing your voice in a similar way for a few songs, take note.

Once you know how you're generally EQing your voice, you can narrow down your search to a mic with those characteristics. This might help you know exactly what you're looking for. This is more time consuming, but might be one of the more accurate ways toward your goal. And you might realize that the dynamic mic with the right EQ is the best way to go!

Best of luck,
Pat

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

People had said to try the Studio Projects C1 so perhaps I'll order that and a Beta 57. I know I can use both of those mics. I could add the B57 as a second snare mic and use the C1 as a mono room mic.

The problem isn't the mic. It's what you're putting in front of the mic. The other problem is what you're doing with it after it's been recorded.

Don't blame the mic. That's the easy way out. It's an excuse (that we've all used at one point or another).

Whether or not this is true you have to get into the mindset that YOU are the problem. Focus on you. Your song. Your performance. Your instrument prep. Your mic placement. Your mixing.

I can't guarantee that changing the mic is going to help you, but I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee that if you improve your skill at music/production that WILL improve your end product. Honest, I wouldn't lie to ya.

[Blast9]

Agreed James, but let me give you guys an example of voice/mic combo working/not working:

I regularly play an acoustic night where the vocal mic is an SM58.

its one of those slightly chaotic "set and forget" type nights... where nothing is set and eveything is forgotten, especially lyrics

It is astonishing how different singers sound through that PA - and most have decent enough mic technique... i.e. singing right on the mic

Some voices sound muffled, some sound piercing, some sound silky and clear

Obviously singing lessons go a long way to improve tonality, but, nevertheless the basic tonality of a voice will still be presented in a certain way through a certain mic.

-

Anyway that's why I thought a mic pre/EQ would go a long way in this instance what with the mic selection he already has.

-

BTW... doesn't the Senn e609 have different filter settings? I seem to remember that is a brighter-sounding mic

[Chrisc_o]

You are right, Blast9, but I think that it is pretty clear that a better sounding demo would be necessary to truly judge if it is the gear or not.

I feel that any other advice would be a distraction.

[Blast9]

(in the words of another GS-er called okydodky) right. thumbsup

-

about the "muffled sound" of the demo -

moonie - do you wanna show us some piccies of your dungeon... sorry... room?I'm curious to see if you have any reflective surfaces at all in there.

Also what kinda stuff are you using on the walls/floors/ceilings?

next - what are your monitors

next - What about your headphones?

thanks

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Blast9

(in the words of another GS-er called okydodky) right. thumbsup

-

about the "muffled sound" of the demo -

moonie - do you wanna show us some piccies of your dungeon... sorry... room?I'm curious to see if you have any reflective surfaces at all in there.

Also what kinda stuff are you using on the walls/floors/ceilings?

next - what are your monitors

next - What about your headphones?

thanks

I will try to get some pics tonight and upload em.

The problem is it's a basement so it's got kinda low ceilings and their is insulation on the walls. My treatment is random furniture/objects around it. I'm thinking about doing some better stuff and I'm sure you guys no more about it than I do. I could try to relocate to a different part of the basement if you guys think it may work better if there is a certain shape that works better for doing drums especially. I'd like suggestions on what I could do to the ceilings and walls. I have a rug under my kit and the floor is of course good ol concrete (cringe). I admit the recording environment sucks. So obviously a better performance is key. I've got a corner I could empty out that would be distant from noise and would have more insulation on the walls than where I am now. But it's still a run of the mill basement concrete floors, cinder block walls, insulation all over, lol. I'd like it to be a better sounding environment but I don't have my hopes too high. It's not my house and I don't have a huge budget so I can't really do too much that would alter the room. I do use Auralex Xpanders on my mics to isolate them a little from the room since I know it isn't great so that could be part of the dead factor. Any advice on treatments, positioning, etc are greatly appreciated.

Monitors are KRK RP6 G1 and headphones are Beyer DT770 Pro. Usually the headphones work better than the monitors I'm thinking about getting better monitors to work with but that is a later discussion, lol.

And I will be making a better version of it I even admitted it sucked and was thrown together too quickly. It was more to lay down an arrangement idea than anything. I definitely wasn't proud of it by any means. I guess I didn't realize it was soo bad that no one could give me any kind of advice aside from improve the performance.

And with that said I even admitted that gear wasn't the only problem. But I have used the stuff for a while and I know that the CAD M177 isn't really flattering on my voice. It's not awful but I think it could be better. And I'm not asking the mic to make me sing in perfect pitch and stuff like that. I'm talking about the overall tone and body the mic is giving me. It wasn't a good vocal take and I'm a little out of practice so lessons will definitely change things. I've taken a break from singing for a couple years so I am well aware that there are shortcomings in my vocal performances.

Just keep in mind, if I thought I was perfect or an expert I wouldn't be posting on here asking for critiques and advice. If I thought I was that amazing I'd just be boasting about how great I am lol.

I think in a few weeks I should have a new drumset so that should help things out considerably. I may try getting a pair of Apex 185 mics to use as overheads so I can use the CAD M177 on toms, though people seemed to really dig the tom sound on that demo so perhaps I should stick with what I've been doing

I will definitely pick up a Beta 57 though because it won't hurt miking both sides of the snare. And I think it would do well on my voice at least in a live setting, Liam Gallaghers been touring with one for a while and we have similar sounding voices. Good or bad doesn't matter I'm stuck with what I've got. And obviously I am aware that Oasis uses much nicer gear than I do but if the basic mic works on his voice I'm assuming I can at least get that part of the equation down which to me is pretty big. I think a lot of the sound starts at the source and then at the mic. And it might work on my voice for recording because it might not be as revealing of certain flaws in my poor singing.

In any event I'll try to make a simple 2 track recording of just miked up acoustic and miked up vocals so you can get a better idea of my idea. Perhaps that would be the best starting point to take from here. Especially since my bass amp is still out on repair and I'll be getting a better drumset soon. I know going straight into the saffire doesn't sound great for bass or DI guitar. I rely on reamping quite heavily.

At least that way I can focus on vocals and guitar both of which need some work. At least from the critique so far. Keep in mind I'm just doing a basic rhythm part. I intend to have that acoustic rhythm part going along with a lead electric part and a clean electric part. I just don't want to clutter up the demo or waste time recording a bunch of stuff I don't really need there to really get acquainted with the song arrangement better.