My new demo

[KeithMoonwannabe]

the e906 has different filter settings and a neodymium magnet. I really like those mics a little more than the e609 I just got my two e609 for like $120 vs $180 a piece for the e906.

I haven't seen many deals that good on the e906.

[Blast9]

Cool -

Only reason I'm asking is that this could be a good "work in progress" kinda thread thumbsup

i'm not an expert on rooms - but I'm curious to see if it is overly-treated - possibly not, from your description.

This is just a wild stab in the dark but the Beta 58 may work better for your voice as far as detail and cutting through - check out the 2 freq plots attached:

As for "body" well these are stage mics, and start to roll off early so you have to get your mouth right on the mic - eg 2 inches away you get afat 6db boost in the upper bass

The 58 starts to rise at 3K - has some bigger peaks between 5-6K then 7-10K, compared to teh 57 which is more gentle.

Can you get both to check out?

[Chrisc_o]

Please forgive me if this comes across as posturing. I do not want to make this an AE contest.

This is a song I recorded about 10 years ago using a VS1680. I had never heard the term "outboard', did not know what a "preamp" was, never used a compressor prior to this project, only had the internal FX cards of the 1680.

I ended up transferring some of the guitar overdubs (3 or 4 tracks max., mostly the guitar leads) into my P3 computer via a Sound Blaster Live Value card, MTC syncing via the joystick port. Yes, transfers were done through the 1/8" headphone style plug! I think I purchased the 1/8" to RCA adapter cable at the dollar store down the street from me at the time. I had just started noodling with Cakewalk 9, if I remember correctly. It was constantly losing sync while trying to bounce down the masters in the 1680. I had never used a computer for any audio work prior to this project and hated it! I had been using the 1680 for 4 or 5 years at this point.

My OH mics were SM58 style dynamics. I don't remember what they were, but they were not a matching set. Drums were tracked in the drummer's parents' untreated basement, 7 tracks IIRC. The best mic I had on the kit was an ATM25 on the kick (I still use this mic today BTW )

Vocals were tracked with a C1000 in my untreated control room. I had no pop screen.

Guitars amps were tracked in the cinder block storage sapce in my basement appartment. It was about 5x10 feet, 7 foot ceilings. I used a 57.

It was mixed in said untreated control room on Cerwin Vega bookshelf speakers.

All this to say that it is fathomable to produce decent recordings using less than ideal gear in less than ideal conditions.

[jaz49]

Damn...some really harsh criticisms in this thread. While I agree with Crisc_o's last point 100%, I don't think anyone should bash a guy who's trying to learn. There is such a thing as constructive criticism. Anyhow, KMW, I think your voice is more than decent considering it's just a scratch take...with some practice you will sound a lot better than some commercially successful artists I've heard recently. I wouldn't take the bashing too personally, Bob Dylan was almost laughed out of the Columbia studios when he first was signed.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

yeah well it's only people online, it's a lot easier to type something sitting behind your computer monitor at a desk than it is to say something to someone's face.

I will try to make a trip to a couple music shops soon and give both the beta 57 and 58 a whirl. I think either one will work well for me.

[Chrisc_o]

Call it criticism if you want. Some people are just trying to help KMW save his money and focus on what will make the biggest difference in his mix overall right now.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Call it criticism if you want. Some people are just trying to help KMW save his money and focus on what will make the biggest difference in his mix overall right now.

which is fine but don't bash things that I myself identified as problems or things that needed improvement and act like hey I can't tell you what might work for this since it's such a bad take. Even a bad take would give you an idea of someone's singing qualities, etc. I know I can't sing that well so obviously I don't come off as arrogant I just don't get why it seems like people make a point of how bad of a take it was when I myself have heard much worse singers that are praised as all that is holy.

Obviously a mic like a Beta 57 isn't a huge waste of money though which is my point. And since I'm not a great singer it may be more flattering to my voice than a CAD M177 and my e945. I can afford the expense of a Beta 57 or a Beta 58 especially since I will need an additional vocal mic for backing vocals in my band live.

I could try my ATM250 on my voice but I just don't get the feeling it will work well on mine I think it'd probably be too dark. But a lot of the singers that I think I sound like use the Beta 57 and 58 and sound good (and my friends who have heard me sing on good days). If anything having a less revealing mic might mean I have to sing better on a recording to get that killer vibe going.

That would also give me the ability to add a second mic to my snare. The 57 may be more desirable than the 58 in that setting.

And I will eventually try to do some of the DIY acoustic treatments from this site that I was given.

Steven P. Helm: DIY Bass Traps

[bradley]

I think you have a really nice voice actually. And, it is just a demo and you haven't used any pitch correction so with some more time spent on multiple takes and vocal comping you could end up with great results!

You could try several different vocal mics but there is no reason why you wouldn't get a good sound out of the CAD M177 once you apply the correct amount of eq, compression and reverb. I had a CAD M177 for a few years. Replaced it with a Brauner Phantom and yeah sure it makes a difference. But, not as much as I thought it would. I've learned that what it comes down to is this: Good performance into a good mic which is then mixed well! Very simple really!

I'm no expert but I think you should just practice when you can and carry on singing into the CAD M177!

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by bradley

You could try several different vocal mics but there is no reason why you wouldn't get a good sound out of the CAD M177...
I'm no expert but I think you should just practice when you can and carry on singing into the CAD M177!

Just thought that it needed repeating in case the point was missed yet again.

Thanks bradley.

[jaz49]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Call it criticism if you want. Some people are just trying to help KMW save his money and focus on what will make the biggest difference in his mix overall right now.

I agreed totally with the main point of your post...and Bradley's post too. Actually I was referring to a post by another forum member who was bashing KMW for having the nerve to post such a horrible recording, since it was so bad that it was making his ears bleed, or something like that. That was obviously not written with the intention of helping the O.P. to improve his skills and make better recordings. It seems kind of lame when people prop themselves up by putting someone else down. We all had to crawl before we could walk...far as I know.

[vonrichter]

Took a listen.

Constructive advice:

*snare down, give a little hit of high EQ to brighten it up. a bit of compression to flatten the snare out and add sustain might also help for this track. It jumps around a little bit as it stands.

*sound like an acoustic guitar pickup plugged in direct... it's not working. Mic up an acoustic if you can.

Arrangement considerations:

*add another guitar track, some held clean electric chords, or give them a little crunch for spice. it's a bit empty right now and this would really fill out the mix.

*add some vocal harmony lines to the chorus on the "ooooohhhhh hooooooooooooohhhhhhh". trust me on this one! ;-)

Nice tom sound, BTW.

[Chrisc_o]

jaz49: Ah, I understand now.

My interpretation of the post in question was that the demo recording was in need of TLC beyond the potential benefits of any new gear purchase, not that the demo was so bad that it should not have been posted.

I agree that it was rough, but I found it to be a just commentary on the state of Gearslut affairs in general. Ex: Q- "hey, my recording sounds bad, where can I input $xxx to make it sound better." A- "Save your cash and practice."

That may just be me, though.

[jaz49]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

I agree that it was rough, but I found it to be a just commentary on the state of Gearslut affairs in general. Ex: Q- "hey, my recording sounds bad, where can I input $xxx to make it sound better." A- "Save your cash and practice."

That may just be me, though.

No, I agree totally with your commentary on the idea that new and better gear is the cure all for all of our poor recordings and/or poor performances. I've found myself falling for that fool's gold myself...too many times! But I've been amazed by some of the very cool recordings some very talented slutz have made that were done with low end gear like an ART MPA with upgraded tubes...or a Hamburg or Kel, or MXL mic that costs under $300. I have a friend that had a couple of songs at the top of the SoundClick charts for a long time(no. 1 or 2 out of 150,000 plus songs). He used little a berhinger mixer...great songs, though...and spirited performances.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

yeah I totally agree that buying gear isn't necessary but I do need a mic I can use live with my band so I am going to invest in something I can use for vocals dual purpose. And hey if in the studio I end up preferring the M177, ATM250, or e945 over the Shure Beta 57/58 than no damage done really think I'd feel more comfortable with the variety.

I'm leaning toward the Beta 57 because of it's usefulness on other sources. I know the 58 would work but I think the 57 would be a hair better. So this isn't just blatant GAS talking I will be using the mic for purposes beyond this simple project.

Another condenser is probably more in line with GAS problems.

Now as for the arrangement.

My ideas for expansion including the input I've recieved:

better lead vocal (no improv at the end)
backing vocals during the oooohhh ooooohh in the chorus

miked up acoustic part ongoing (done and done and done again, like I said I went DI on the demo for the easy way out)

lead guitar in the intro (slightly overdriven been thinking about using an ebow....similar to the Midge Ure electric version from his recent tours....see youtube I searched "midge ure fade to grey" it is from rockpalast)

rhythm guitar clean holding out the chords (maybe a smidgen of light chorus from my voodoo lab analog chorus or possilby a light vibe from the voodoo lab micro vibe just to add some character and slight body)

I would like to add some synth stuff but I don't do keys (well good enough to say I do lol)....however I have a friend that does...so I will see about that....my hesitation is because I was trying to stay away from sounding exactly like the original or to Midge Ure's various versions (btw I'm a huge Midge Ure / Ultravox fan may seem strange to some since I love blues and classic rock for the most part)

drums I will keep everything pretty much how it is only I will record on a better drumset (hopefully, I'm planning to get a new kit soon with tax return money) oh btw no more live drum ending lol I know it's not a rock concert from the 70's
now I will add a second snare mic (with phase reversed on bottom of snare mic) and I will bump the highs a little bit and turn the bad boy DOWN in the mix
I may toy with a room mic but I probably won't use it.

bass line I will not improv with the stupid high notes cuz I suck at bass
and I will mic up an actual bass cab / amp (using likely my ATM250 and either a e609 or SM57 up close and then an M177 on the room a few feet back)

well that's the plan thumbsup

sounds good on paper in a few weeks when I have the Beta and the new drumkit in my clutches we will record again. And I will post the new version for everyone to evaluate and hopefully hear a night and day difference.