Drum over heads AT2020 VS MXL 603

[fiddler59]

KEL HM-1's all the way for drum overheads !!!

DB

[Action508]

I got a question, would you rather use fat head II's or 603's for drum over heads? I really want an AEA r88 but I can't swing it right now so I need cheaper overheads.

[IzovAge]

Originally Posted by Action508

I got a question, would you rather use fat head II's or 603's for drum over heads? I really want an AEA r88 but I can't swing it right now so I need cheaper overheads.

Fathead in front of the kit and the 603's overhead.

[dkelley]

I use apex 205s on overheads sometimes - similar to fatheads (single long ribbon design, not dual, sound is definitely similar however).

I do that when I want a thick warmer "older" mix. I like it a lot, but if I were to mix something with amazing highs (wierd examples tend to pop into my head when I say things like this, such as david lee roth's skyscraper album) I probably wouldn't use that style of mic (although I might and just eq it a lot).

if I wanted more highs (such as that album example) then with those options you're asking about I'd use 2020s over 603s but other people do use 603s with what they consider good success, so I guess your mileage may vary. 603s aren't crap, I just personally dislike them. for me they remind me of akg c1000s. I used to love c1000s but not any more :-). if you had a bigger budget and wnated a bit of brightness with vibe I'd suggest neumann pencils (either the new or the old, both good but the older ones have a slightly sweeter high end).

603s are brighter than 2020s and have less bass (in a very brief superficial summary and only imho :-)

Cheers
Don

[Obitheincredible]

Ya I have decided to get the 2020. I am also buying the xq and xt from naiant and the mca sp1 just because they are so cheap. But in the end I think the at2020 will serve me better.

[tamakid1292]

Good choice with the 2020s i use them for overheads there great. Only thing sometimes they get a little harsh sounding so when mixing i just take some highs off. But they sound great and they hold up well.

[AnalogueRazor]

You might want to look into the CAD GXL1200 mics. They are pretty similar to the 603, but 200 bux gets you two of those and a GXL3000 multi-pattern. I used that combo on classical piano yesterday, as well as a piano and sax jazz duo, and it sounds great. AND as soon as my Omni capsules come in this week I'll try em on overheads.

I believe these also can be modded with the ultimate 603 mod, as they look pretty similar inside (I haven't followed the traces yet...)

[Michael_Joly]

Wow, great tip! I wasn't aware of the CAD GXL3000 Stereo Studio Pack.

The GXL 3000 is usable out of the box and is terrific platform if someone wants to do a full capsule, electronics etc modification. I'm pretty far along on my R&D work on these mods and will release them very soon.

And yes, the GXL1200 is the same basic mic as the 603 and Nady CM-90.

[Obitheincredible]

I already made the purchase. I ordered another at2041 pack and I ordered 2 MCA SP1's as from a thread I read they are discontinued and wanted to get in on them before theyre gone. I 'll order the Naiants in a week or so with some spare cash. I also ordered 2 more sm57, and the GLS es 57's to compare.

[IzovAge]

Good choice on the SP-1's! I think you'll be quite surprised at how they sound as OH's.

Stick one in front of a distorted guitar cab as well. Blended with a 57, it makes a nice match.

It doesn't sound bad as a vocal mic either.

[Obitheincredible]

Ya I was surprised at all the reviews. Everything was glowing everywhere about them. Well almost there was this guy that posted in 3 different places "NOT COMPATIBLE WITH ACID!" lol idiots.I'm psyched. I went mic shopping this weekend and spent about 500 and got a grip of mics!

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

The 205 is a long ribbon copied from the AEA R84 with fairly flat and extended frequency response. The Fathead has a shorter ribbon, wider magnets and a frequency response that has a peak-before-cutoff shape.

Hi Michael

Yes, that's what I was trying to say (I was describing the 205 as opposed to the fathead which I presumed he knew the design of already).

And as you know, I think 603 modding can work, I've had it proven to me by Marik as well, I'm just talking stock 603s here (although even modded ones still are very different from ribbon sound).

Cheers,
Don

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Wow, great tip! I wasn't aware of the CAD GXL3000 Stereo Studio Pack.

The GXL 3000 is usable out of the box and is terrific platform if someone wants to do a full capsule, electronics, transformer etc modification. And yes, the GXL1200 is the same basic mic as the 603 and Nady CM-90.

Hey Michael:

do you have a link or price range for mods on the GXL 3000 and what would the end result be like. I'm in the market for new overheads (enter GXL1200 with ultimate mod or maybe another mic soo many options) and 1-2 male vocal mics for recording (I was thinking about the HM2 and HM7 from KEL, perhaps the GXL 3000 might be worthy after mods).

[IzovAge]

Michael Joly does a mod on the SP-1's that I'm certain would make them even nicer. Something to think about down the road.

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by weownyoursoul

I have a 603 which does the same thing but only with devices that don't quite supply enough phantom power. Do you know if your mic-pre supplies the full 48v? The 603 seems a thirsty mic and might need more than 48v. It only ever worked without the "squeal" on 1 of the 3 phantom power providing devices i've owned.

thanks for the tip!
i'll do a line test to check the v's & try a couple other phantom power sources.
none of my other mic's have a problem.

i'm hoping if i end up liking the mod, it will also fix the squeal.

[Obitheincredible]

Originally Posted by IzovAge

Michael Joly does a mod on the SP-1's that I'm certain would make them even nicer. Something to think about down the road.

I wasnt aware of that I thought audio upgrades were the only ones. Is this true? I would definately be interested. On the audio upgrades site there is no info on this mod so I am unsure if they are still doing it.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Obitheincredible

I wasnt aware of that I thought audio upgrades were the only ones. Is this true? I would definately be interested. On the audio upgrades site there is no info on this mod so I am unsure if they are still doing it.

hidden '84 mod

[Obitheincredible]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

hidden '84 mod

Ok I checked out the site but from what I understand that is a capsule upgrade. The jim williams upgrade was in the actual circuit.

[Corran]

No it's not a capsule upgrade, it's circuitry. I'm sure he'll be around to tell you the specifics but the point of the mod is that the capsule is pretty good to start with.

[Obitheincredible]

Can't Wait! I'm always looking forward to his info!

[Michael_Joly]

hey Obi!

The "Hidden '84" is a suite of acoustical and electronics upgrades. There is also an optional capsule upgrade as well.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Obitheincredible

at2020 - 3
603 - 3
naiants - 3
ecm87 - 2
SP1 - 2
B1 - 1

So I'm back where I started. But I'm leaning towards the 2020's

Hey Obi,

I see you are in Salt Lake. Just PM me and you can audition some mics, including SP1 and 603, both stock and modified.

Best, M

[AnalogueRazor]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

Hey Michael:

do you have a link or price range for mods on the GXL 3000 and what would the end result be like. I'm in the market for new overheads (enter GXL1200 with ultimate mod or maybe another mic soo many options) and 1-2 male vocal mics for recording (I was thinking about the HM2 and HM7 from KEL, perhaps the GXL 3000 might be worthy after mods).

Any word on a GXL 3000 mod anytime? I would love to have a pair of those as a cheap 414-type all purpose mic, so maybe something to tame the highs while increasing transient response?thumbsup

[Michael_Joly]

The GXL3000 has been on my short, short list for while. I've actually got one disassembled on my side R&D bench as a current project and am just about finished my work on it. So that mic will be my next modification offering (to be followed by the V69).

To recap the 3000: it uses a 34 mm K67-style capsule, has three patterns, LF attenuation and 10dB pad switches, 2SK170 FET, a bipolar stage and an output transformer.

The Problematic Issues -

The brightness designed into the K67 style capsule we know about.

Next, I'm not wild about the rats nest of wiring (stray capacitance losses) used to accomplish pattern, pad and filter switching.

To their credit, the capsule-to-FET capacitors are better than the ceramic types the vendors have used in the past.

The common 2SK170 FET, while quiet, does not have the best transient response available due to its high input capacitance (Ciss) (which is an inherent FET characteristic and essentially circuit independent).

The biggest issue (besides the bright K67-style capsule not being compensated with a HF de-emphasis circuit) in this mic is the second stage bipolar transistor - incorrect bias causes this stage to go into nasty-sounding asymmetrical hard clipping 7dB before the FET even begins to symmetrically soft clip. Instead of having a nice "tubey", soft clipping FET sound this mic gets harsh fast. And of course this is going to occur in the high frequencies first because of the rising HF output of the capsule. So it doesn't sound like what a nice FET mic should sound like when pushed hard.

The good news is I just investigated the frequency response, distortion and phase response of the output transformer. Looks like some money can be saved by keeping the stock transformer. Its phase response is excellent - less than 2 degrees input-to-output phase shift at 20Hz and 20kHz. It is down only 1 dB at 20Hz and goes flat out to 20kHz. Once I re-biased the bipolar transistor I got the FET to (soft) clip first, followed by the transformer (again soft, saturation clipping) then the bipolar transistor - a nice sounding gain staging arrangement. Remember, this is a FET mic with much lower voltage swings than a tube mic. The transformer is not the first amplitude limit in this mic's stock circuit - the bipolar transistor biasing is the cause of early onset harshness in the top end.

The Solutions -

A K47-style capsule installed in my signature single-layer headbasket is going to give better results. Every time I've replaced the brighter, stock K67-style capsule I've preferred the results. The GXL3000, like most inexpensive Chinese mics, uses a flat-response signal path from FET through output. In other words, these mics do not have a HF de-emphasis circuit that Neumann intended to be used with the rising-response K67 capsule.

I'll definitely change the input caps to my Premium Electronics standard part and clean up the wire routing as much as possible while in that area.

I just love the transient response, detail and lack of "congestion" that comes with upgrading from the 2SK170 to a better device and re-biasing for best operating point. BTW - Jim Williams and I are almost on the same page here - he likes the J305 FET because of its fast performance and low capacitive loading. I'm not using the J305 but I agree with his hearing and tactics - a preference for faster transient response and a lower capacitive-load FET.

The bipolar transistor needs to be re-biased to increase headroom 7 dB and get rid of asymmetrical hard clipping.

That leaves getting rid of the polarized electrolytic capacitors in the signal path.

Pricing? I guess you'd have to look at this mod from the price perspective of the discontinued, transformer-coupled AKG 414 B-ULS, which is what I think you have in mind as a goal. Being that I'm more of a Neumann-sound guy than an AKG-sound guy I would go with a Peluso PK-47 capsule (list price $245) especially since this mic lacks a HF de-emphasis circuit. Then there's the headbasket, wiring and electronics mods. It remains to be seen whether or not there is a market for such a comprehensive suite of modifications to a $100 mic. One of the reasons the MK-219 and MK-319 mics are such great values is the capsule and transformer are wonderful-sounding and don't need to be upgraded.

So yeah, I'm deep into the GXL3000. I expect to come up with a mod suite that will be an excellent price / performance value and will add it to my site soon. But in the meantime I'd like to hear some feedback from folks as to where the price / performance sweet spot should be. I mean, for lot's of people the ideal price / performace spot is a $100 stock GXL3000! For others its a Brauner, FLEA, Lawson, Manley, Pearlman, Peluso, Telefunken, Wagner, Wunder (insert your favorite) mic. But maybe start another thread for that topic

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

The common 2SK170 FET, while quiet, does not have the best transient response available due to its high input capacitance (Ciss) (which is an inherent FET characteristic and essentially circuit independent).

Mmm... I don't quite see how those are connected. In my findings the 2SK170 in fact, is a sonically superior device. It is just widely misused and has completely wrong operational points, as used in MOST microphones. Just study its graphs for a hint.
Besides, its high Ciss helps to reduce distortions associated with capsule capacitance/voltage transfer non-linearity.
Alchemy? Yes.

Best, M

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I think in a couple months I'm going to buy a pair of the Apex 185 SDC mics.

You get cardioid and omni caps, windscreens, shockmounts, and a nice carrying case for like $110 at Front End Audio. GOOD LUCK GETTING ALL THAT FOR THAT PRICE WITH MXL (EVEN USED). Unless you actually do have good luck, I don't.

Once I send em to Mr. Joly they will be in a whole other league.

Screw the MXL and CAD mics now lol. I can get this pair with everything else for a slight addition to the price of a new MXL604.

When this all goes down I will post clips and my opinions. Seems too good to be true but if they are really the same as the MXL603 I know what to expect so I won't be disapointed especially not for $110. I just wish I had looked at the Apex 185 long ago.

Did I mention the Apex has a low cut and atttenuator pad built in and they are seperate pads unlike the one switch on the MXL604.

So just a heads up if anyone is interested in the oktavamod ultimate rebuild of the MXL 603. Get yourself a pair of APEX 185!

plus it should leave me with enough money to order a KEL HM2. which would give me a much wanted flavor for male vocals.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

I think in a couple months I'm going to buy a pair of the Apex 185 SDC mics.... Seems too good to be true but if they are really the same as the MXL603 I know what to expect so I won't be disapointed especially not for $110. I just wish I had looked at the Apex 185 long ago...

Hey KMW - they use the same capsules and circuit. The body of the Apex 185 has four slotted vents instead of three so this required a different approach to vent enlargement - removing all vents, trimming down uprights and wrapping new high open area %, 360 degree, flush, meshes around the body. Sort of reminds me of an old Telefunken SDC.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Hey KMW - they use the same capsules and circuit. The body of the Apex 185 has four slotted vents instead of three so this required a different approach to vent enlargement - removing all vents, trimming down uprights and wrapping new high open area %, 360 degree, flush, meshes around the body.

cool stuff Michael thanks so much. I'm hoping I can get both the mics and the mods done this year. I can definitely swing at least the mics and get the ball rolling. I'll just have to see what kind of luck I run into this year.

Is it possible to split up the ultimate mod in phases like say I just want to do the electronics and then a couple months later do the capsules?

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

Is it possible to split up the ultimate mod in phases like say I just want to do the electronics and then a couple months later do the capsules?

Sure. You'll end up paying more in shipping though. I'll look into what kind of multiple payment deals eBay has - you would buy the mods through eBay by making a first payment, I get paid in full, you get your mics completely modified, then you continue to make the remaining eBay payments. I don't know if eBay is currently doing this, but I've put up customer-specific products on eBay so folks can take advantage of the discounts and multiple-payment plans they offer on occasion.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Perhaps Jim Williams can explain it to you. Ask him why he uses swaps out the 2SK107 with its 30 pF input capacitance for the J305 which has 2.2 pF input capacitance. I believe he'll answer faster transient response and less "congestion" (a subjective term he uses and one that I'm fond of).

You whether did not read my message, or did not hear what I am saying, or else, just wanted to hear what you want to hear.
1) I have no idea why you refer me to Jim Williams, when it was YOU posting that information.
2) You are trying to connect capacitance of the device with its transient response, which is incorrect. So if Jim Williams THINKS that J305 has better transient response, it does not mean that this is because of its lower capacitance.
3) The sonic characteristics of devices like tubes or FETs very much DEPEND on their operating points, and "congestion" is one of those characteristics. With CORRECT OPERATING POINTS the 2SK170 sonically is a far superior device. And here I trust my own ears more than anybody else's.

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Input capacitance (Ciss) is an inherent electrical characteristic of a FET and is essentially independent of operating point. This issue has nothing to do with operation point, it has to do with the inherently superior HF performance of one FET (J305) vs. another (2SK170) as specified on the datasheets

What a mess!
First, I would love to see where, how, and which datasheet specifies that J305 has a superior HF performance than 2SK170.
Second, may I suggest that input capacitance very much depends on how the FET (or tube) is connected in the circuit. Please consult a textbook on that.
And last, third, I already mentioned that higher 2SK170 Ciss helps to reduce capsule distortion.

Best, M