20 vs 24 bit ADAT bridge

Prickstein · 2nd July 2005

Hey gang

Just picked up my new 2nd hand Mix Plus rig today for a steal.
The one thing that held me off getting it was that the ADAT bridge was the 20 bit version.
I realise that I can monitor off of the SPDIF or AES at 24 bits but alas for now I have no converter so I'm stuck with the 20 bit analogue out.
I bought the rig coz I got a really important mix to do (my first major label mix) and the track count far exceeded my 001 LE rig, and I needed a DSP kick as well.
The project was recorded by a very well known rock producer with no holds barred on capturing the signal right.
Am I shooting myself in the foot by attempting to mix off of the 20 bit analogue output on the adat bridge? I have a behringer ADA8000 to try at the moment, would I be better off trying mix off of it (unfortunately the light pipe is only 20 bit also).
I constantly refer to music coming off of a 16 bit cd player as I go so is it going to make that big a difference?
Any feedback appreciated as this mix is the opportunity of a lifetime for me, and I don't want to blow it.

Thanks heaps

Prickstein

Sugarnutz · 16th January 2008

Here's the rub. 20 bit monitoring is not going to kill you, particularly since it appears to be a rock project and not classical or chamber music with a tremendous dynamic range. CDs are only 16 bit and people don't seem to mind listening to them much. If you're mixing ITB, just don't hit your convertors real hard (read this thread about digital levels over at PSW: PSW Recording Forums: Whatever Works => Digital tracking with low levels = better...is this new??? ) If the mixes sound good on a 20 bit output, they outta sound great when played back 24 bits at the mastering house. Just get this project under your belt and then get a 24 bit ADAT bridge after they pay the bill or get something like a Benchmark DAC-1 for monitoring (or you might be able to rent one for cheap during the project). Main thing is don't tell anybody that your analog output is only 20 bits, they will probably never know unless you tell them and it's pretty much all smoke and mirrors anyhow. Remember "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, just baffle 'em with bullshit!" it applies here. You're gonna be missing 4 lousy bits that no one will hear or only the best convertors will reproduce anyhow, just relax and don't sweat it, if it sounds good it is good. YMMV

aussie_techie · 16th January 2008

the dynamic range of all converters are limited by noise so in reality you only every get 20bit anyway. so as to if 20 vs 24 bit matters the answer is no, at least for modern music anyway. the bigger question is going to be the quality of the converters. to mix well you need to hear what you are doing. if you are working in a good room get a good 2ch DA like the benchmark or lavry, if the room isnt all that good then that is the first issue you should address.

remember a CD has been mastered and dithered to 16bit, the fiinal medium being 16bit doesnt negate the benefit of working at higher bit depths. its like saying well the song will be an mp3 so i will just recording mp3s

i think there is a limitation to which interfaces the 20 vs 24bit ADAT bridge works with, but i cant remember the details atm. as most converters have AES it is usually a better way to go anyway.

LoneWolfSullivan why would you buy something that is made for a system you dont use, sorry you were mis informed but come on your gripe is with whoever gave you the misinformation not with the product its self.

dannygold · 16th January 2008

About how much is a mix 24 system going for these days? Probably an underrated system, really. I say since you're going old skool, go 20 bit. Each bit adds 6db dynamic range, so 20 bit is still 24db better than 16 bit, which is alot.

danny

Prickstein · 16th January 2008

Wow, this thread is a blast from the past, I posted it 2 1/2 years ago.
I have long since sold the MIX system (the lack of delay comp sucked) and went to a 002. I have recently moved on again and bought Logic 8 and a Macbook I'll be using for writing and still do my mixes on the 002.

kurt · 16th January 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolfSullivan

I was misinformed by a salesman about the Digidesign so-called "ADAT Bridge", the worst piece of crap I've ever bought for my studio.

I wanted to convert my 20 bit ADAT stereo mixes to S/PDIF. Unfortunately, the Alesis AI-1 format converter is only 16 bits, and I was wrongly informed that the so-called ADAT Bridge could do it at 20 bits.

NO! In "stand alone" mode it converts AES/EBU but not ADAT! In other words, it's not really an ADAT Bridge.

The unit was designed for Pro Tools in a computer, but a very specific version of Pro Tools, plus it requires a proprietary unavailable cable. It cost me over $300 used and it's useless.

I now use an RME card in my computer for converting ADAT to S/PDIF.

Why are you bitching Digidesign for your own ignorance?
Every kid in the block knows that ddesign hardware only works with ddesign software & vice versa. This "so-called ADAT Bridge" was & is ingenious piece of hardware, specifically designed to work with ADAT Lightipe signals on a PT|MIX systems.
It’s still widely used on legacy port in HD systems too. 16 ch I/O plus mirrored 1-2 analog out. If you don’t know those so elementary facts, THE STUDIO is not what you are capable of managing.

Sugarnutz · 17th January 2008

WOW! I did'nt even notice the date on this thread when I responded. I click on "New Posts" most mornings and somehow this thread got in the bunch, so I thought it was fairly recent. Musta been from dude's rant on the fact that the ADAT bridge was'nt his cup'o tea, post is gone now. Imformation is still relavent though.

Sugarnutz · 17th January 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannygold

About how much is a mix 24 system going for these days? Probably an underrated system, really. I say since you're going old skool, go 20 bit. Each bit adds 6db dynamic range, so 20 bit is still 24db better than 16 bit, which is alot.

danny

Mix+ is a pretty good deal for what you get nowadays. I got my Mix+ with two 24-bit ADAT bridges for around $2200. Cheaper than a new 003 I imagine, happy here.

Ben B · 17th January 2008

I've been running Mix3 for the last several years. I'm about to get an expansion chassis to load up with several additional mix farm cards, which are getting cheaper every day. I can do most of what I need/want to do with this system. I wish it had ADC, but I can use Time Adjuster where it's needed. I'm trying to get every last drop out of this system, as I personally think that HD is a poor investment at this point. I'm happily using my ADAT bridges with external converters. One of them is even a 20 bit model, and for the most part I think it sounds fine.

nestsoundstudio · 15th February 2010

Will a 24-bit ADAT Bridge work seamlessly with an Apogee AD-16 (older version) set of converters? Will latency become an issue? How stable of a setup will it be? Please keep in mind this will be for a PT MIX 4 system. I need 32 channels worth of quality conversion. I'm not feeling it anymore with my 882 20-bit modules; there's something missing in my sound and I feel this may correct some of my issues. I have top quality mics, preamps, compressors, cables, etc, etc. I've been stuck in 20-bit/44.1 kHz mode for sometime now. My master clock is a Lucid Gen6. My monitors are Mackie HR824's, and my control room is treated very well. The only thing I'm missing is that extra LOUDness in my masters. I'm using the Waves L2 in the final part of my chain (after linear phase EQ w/ appropriate curve, multiband compressor, and stereo-field imager), and after maximizing too much it starts to sound distorted. When I play back the master in other realms it seems my masters are always a little quieter than on other commercial records. So I think the main issue right now is that I'm lacking overall headroom, and I'm hoping that stepping up to 24 bit/48 kHz (max allowed on a PT Mix setup) with better A/D converters will give me that extra punch I'm lacking. I welcome any sort of feedback/criticism is welcome... whatever you guys can contribute will be greatly appreciated. I've already dropped 50 grand on my studio and I would like some help before I drop another 2-4 grand on converters. Thanks!!

kurt · 15th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by nestsoundstudio

Will a 24-bit ADAT Bridge work seamlessly with an Apogee AD-16 (older version) set of converters? Will latency become an issue? How stable of a setup will it be? Please keep in mind this will be for a PT MIX 4 system. I need 32 channels worth of quality conversion. I'm not feeling it anymore with my 882 20-bit modules; there's something missing in my sound and I feel this may correct some of my issues. I have top quality mics, preamps, compressors, cables, etc, etc. I've been stuck in 20-bit/44.1 kHz mode for sometime now. My master clock is a Lucid Gen6. My monitors are Mackie HR824's, and my control room is treated very well. The only thing I'm missing is that extra LOUDness in my masters. I'm using the Waves L2 in the final part of my chain (after linear phase EQ w/ appropriate curve, multiband compressor, and stereo-field imager), and after maximizing too much it starts to sound distorted. When I play back the master in other realms it seems my masters are always a little quieter than on other commercial records. So I think the main issue right now is that I'm lacking overall headroom, and I'm hoping that stepping up to 24 bit/48 kHz (max allowed on a PT Mix setup) with better A/D converters will give me that extra punch I'm lacking. I welcome any sort of feedback/criticism is welcome... whatever you guys can contribute will be greatly appreciated. I've already dropped 50 grand on my studio and I would like some help before I drop another 2-4 grand on converters. Thanks!!

Just hook your ADAT Bridge as any other MIX compatible interface. It´s a God send Light Pipe interface for any Light Pipe outboard hardware. You can use analog out as send to Headphone-amp, freeing other valuable HWare outputs. Latency is no bigger than as any other ddesign interface. Conversion is rock solid.

PS.
Ab. Loudness. You can´t compete with pro mastering house.

nestsoundstudio · 15th February 2010

Quote:

Just hook your ADAT Bridge as any other MIX compatible interface. It´s a God send Light Pipe interface for any Light Pipe outboard hardware. You can use analog out as send to Headphone-amp, freeing other valuable HWare outputs. Latency is no bigger than as any other ddesign interface. Conversion is rock solid.

PS.
Ab. Loudness. You can´t compete with pro mastering house.

Hey thanks for the quick response Kurt. Now all I've got to do is save up the cash before I decide to purchase some other piece of gear.

So do you think I will hear an obvious difference in my recordings by switching from my current setup to an Apogee/ADAT bridge setup? Are we talking crisper high-end? Better 3-dimensionality (if that's even a word)? I'd just like to know before I drop the cash.

As for competing with a pro mastering house, I honestly feel I've gotten pretty close. Sure, I don't (yet) have a Tube-Tech multiband or Manley Massive Passive eq, nor do I have a pair of the sweetest Genelec monitors around. But I can reference my masters to what's already been mastered at a pro mastering house.

Obviously the eq at the start of the chain is playing a big role upon the reaction of the multiband, and the threshold/attack/release/gain of the multiband is having an effect on the final limiter. Not to mention the phase manipulation from the stereo imager has a real big role to play. My problem is that I sometimes try to cookie-cut the mastering process, or I try to overcompensate certain frequencies (especially after long periods of listening to the song really loud).

I've started using the earbuds from an Apple Ipod in addition to my near-fields, far-fields, car, home stereo, and laptop speakers. I figure that with all the Ipods out there, the earbuds would be the ideal monitoring device. My masters have improved as a result.

kurt · 15th February 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by nestsoundstudio

Hey thanks for the quick response Kurt. Now all I've got to do is save up the cash before I decide to purchase some other piece of gear.

So do you think I will hear an obvious difference in my recordings by switching from my current setup to an Apogee/ADAT bridge setup? Are we talking crisper high-end? Better 3-dimensionality (if that's even a word)? I'd just like to know before I drop the cash.

As for competing with a pro mastering house, I honestly feel I've gotten pretty close. Sure, I don't (yet) have a Tube-Tech multiband or Manley Massive Passive eq, nor do I have a pair of the sweetest Genelec monitors around. But I can reference my masters to what's already been mastered at a pro mastering house.

Obviously the eq at the start of the chain is playing a big role upon the reaction of the multiband, and the threshold/attack/release/gain of the multiband is having an effect on the final limiter. Not to mention the phase manipulation from the stereo imager has a real big role to play. My problem is that I sometimes try to cookie-cut the mastering process, or I try to overcompensate certain frequencies (especially after long periods of listening to the song really loud).

I've started using the earbuds from an Apple Ipod in addition to my near-fields, far-fields, car, home stereo, and laptop speakers. I figure that with all the Ipods out there, the earbuds would be the ideal monitoring device. My masters have improved as a result.

I can tell you that ADATBridge conversion or really transport of the already converted at the source to Light Pipe signals, all depends of the quality of the original converter. My Focusrite 428 with digi card, sounds via LightPipe at least as good as signals converted thru my Apogee AD-8000.
----------
Mixing/checking thru ear-buds is a good idea.

2nd July 2005	#1
Prickstein Gear addict Joined: Aug 2004 Location: Gold Coast, Australia Posts: 465 Thread Starter	20 vs 24 bit ADAT bridge Hey gang Just picked up my new 2nd hand Mix Plus rig today for a steal. The one thing that held me off getting it was that the ADAT bridge was the 20 bit version. I realise that I can monitor off of the SPDIF or AES at 24 bits but alas for now I have no converter so I'm stuck with the 20 bit analogue out. I bought the rig coz I got a really important mix to do (my first major label mix) and the track count far exceeded my 001 LE rig, and I needed a DSP kick as well. The project was recorded by a very well known rock producer with no holds barred on capturing the signal right. Am I shooting myself in the foot by attempting to mix off of the 20 bit analogue output on the adat bridge? I have a behringer ADA8000 to try at the moment, would I be better off trying mix off of it (unfortunately the light pipe is only 20 bit also). I constantly refer to music coming off of a 16 bit cd player as I go so is it going to make that big a difference? Any feedback appreciated as this mix is the opportunity of a lifetime for me, and I don't want to blow it. Thanks heaps Prickstein __________________ soundcloud.com/rick-hollis facebook.com/rickhollismusic

16th January 2008	#2
Sugarnutz Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Lake Cormorant, MS Posts: 818	Here's the rub. 20 bit monitoring is not going to kill you, particularly since it appears to be a rock project and not classical or chamber music with a tremendous dynamic range. CDs are only 16 bit and people don't seem to mind listening to them much. If you're mixing ITB, just don't hit your convertors real hard (read this thread about digital levels over at PSW: PSW Recording Forums: Whatever Works => Digital tracking with low levels = better...is this new??? ) If the mixes sound good on a 20 bit output, they outta sound great when played back 24 bits at the mastering house. Just get this project under your belt and then get a 24 bit ADAT bridge after they pay the bill or get something like a Benchmark DAC-1 for monitoring (or you might be able to rent one for cheap during the project). Main thing is don't tell anybody that your analog output is only 20 bits, they will probably never know unless you tell them and it's pretty much all smoke and mirrors anyhow. Remember "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, just baffle 'em with bullshit!" it applies here. You're gonna be missing 4 lousy bits that no one will hear or only the best convertors will reproduce anyhow, just relax and don't sweat it, if it sounds good it is good. YMMV __________________ My standard response to all questions and requests for an opinion: "I'll have to check with my Dad about that one. He knows everything, Mom says he's a Know-It-All."

16th January 2008	#4
dannygold Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,851	rockin' it olde skool? About how much is a mix 24 system going for these days? Probably an underrated system, really. I say since you're going old skool, go 20 bit. Each bit adds 6db dynamic range, so 20 bit is still 24db better than 16 bit, which is alot. danny __________________ Danny Gold

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16th January 2008	#3
aussie_techie Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 2,709	the dynamic range of all converters are limited by noise so in reality you only every get 20bit anyway. so as to if 20 vs 24 bit matters the answer is no, at least for modern music anyway. the bigger question is going to be the quality of the converters. to mix well you need to hear what you are doing. if you are working in a good room get a good 2ch DA like the benchmark or lavry, if the room isnt all that good then that is the first issue you should address. remember a CD has been mastered and dithered to 16bit, the fiinal medium being 16bit doesnt negate the benefit of working at higher bit depths. its like saying well the song will be an mp3 so i will just recording mp3s i think there is a limitation to which interfaces the 20 vs 24bit ADAT bridge works with, but i cant remember the details atm. as most converters have AES it is usually a better way to go anyway. LoneWolfSullivan why would you buy something that is made for a system you dont use, sorry you were mis informed but come on your gripe is with whoever gave you the misinformation not with the product its self.

17th January 2008	#7
Sugarnutz Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Lake Cormorant, MS Posts: 818	WOW! I did'nt even notice the date on this thread when I responded. I click on "New Posts" most mornings and somehow this thread got in the bunch, so I thought it was fairly recent. Musta been from dude's rant on the fact that the ADAT bridge was'nt his cup'o tea, post is gone now. Imformation is still relavent though.

17th January 2008	#9
Ben B Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,339	I've been running Mix3 for the last several years. I'm about to get an expansion chassis to load up with several additional mix farm cards, which are getting cheaper every day. I can do most of what I need/want to do with this system. I wish it had ADC, but I can use Time Adjuster where it's needed. I'm trying to get every last drop out of this system, as I personally think that HD is a poor investment at this point. I'm happily using my ADAT bridges with external converters. One of them is even a 20 bit model, and for the most part I think it sounds fine.

15th February 2010	#10
nestsoundstudio Gear Head Joined: Dec 2009 Location: Victoria, TX Posts: 52	Will a 24-bit ADAT Bridge work seamlessly with an Apogee AD-16 (older version) set of converters? Will latency become an issue? How stable of a setup will it be? Please keep in mind this will be for a PT MIX 4 system. I need 32 channels worth of quality conversion. I'm not feeling it anymore with my 882 20-bit modules; there's something missing in my sound and I feel this may correct some of my issues. I have top quality mics, preamps, compressors, cables, etc, etc. I've been stuck in 20-bit/44.1 kHz mode for sometime now. My master clock is a Lucid Gen6. My monitors are Mackie HR824's, and my control room is treated very well. The only thing I'm missing is that extra LOUDness in my masters. I'm using the Waves L2 in the final part of my chain (after linear phase EQ w/ appropriate curve, multiband compressor, and stereo-field imager), and after maximizing too much it starts to sound distorted. When I play back the master in other realms it seems my masters are always a little quieter than on other commercial records. So I think the main issue right now is that I'm lacking overall headroom, and I'm hoping that stepping up to 24 bit/48 kHz (max allowed on a PT Mix setup) with better A/D converters will give me that extra punch I'm lacking. I welcome any sort of feedback/criticism is welcome... whatever you guys can contribute will be greatly appreciated. I've already dropped 50 grand on my studio and I would like some help before I drop another 2-4 grand on converters. Thanks!!