I need a U87 style of mic at a decent price range, help!

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

That is why I have been so happy to discover Bees Neez Mics - real high quality components and build quality at a mid-sized price point.
Bees Neez Microphones
They have to be seen / heard to be believed mate - for real.

Beesneez is on my short list

I have heard the clips and read GS reports and opinions.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I just don't see how you can say that the U87 is bad. So it's not the right mic for every situation. That doesn't make it a bad mic or sonically inferior/superior. I've heard/used both the AI and a vintage U87 I preferred the vintage, but perhaps that's because I'm used to the sound of the vintage U87 on so many popular recordings over the years. If I only had $3k to spend on a mic would I buy a U87 maybe yes maybe no. Frankly I don't know because I don't have that kind of money to spend at once.

If I have a flathead screw and a really nice phillips screwdriver does that make my screwdriver bad because it won't work with the particular screw?

I've heard a lot of good things about the Bees Neez mics, if I'm ever not a poor college student I would love to invest in one of their mics (maybe of tube flavor).

For now the AT40 series large diaphragms, Blue mics (baby bottle is my favorite, well that is somewhat affordable, remember we are in low end theory), Shure KSM32/44, Groove Tubes GT57/67, Sterling Audio ST77/79 are probably my favorites for "affordable" condenser mics. I wouldn't describe any of em as really being exactly like a U87 (the closest of those mentioned to that sound would be the Baby Bottle and the ST77/79).

I also like the CAD M177/179 (I got a pair of M177 for like $160 a couple months ago, they are great utility mics and awesome on toms makes me wonder if I should try some AE3000 mics on my toms and sell my M177 pair????).

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

I just don't see how you can say that the U87 is bad. So it's not the right mic for every situation. That doesn't make it a bad mic or sonically inferior/superior. I've heard/used both the AI and a vintage U87 I preferred the vintage, but perhaps that's because I'm used to the sound of the vintage U87 on so many popular recordings over the years. If I only had $3k to spend on a mic would I buy a U87 maybe yes maybe no. Frankly I don't know because I don't have that kind of money to spend at once.

If I have a flathead screw and a really nice phillips screwdriver does that make my screwdriver bad because it won't work with the particular screw?

I've heard a lot of good things about the Bees Neez mics, if I'm ever not a poor college student I would love to invest in one of their mics (maybe of tube flavor).

For now the AT40 series large diaphragms, Blue mics (baby bottle is my favorite, well that is somewhat affordable, remember we are in low end theory), Shure KSM32/44, Groove Tubes GT57/67, Sterling Audio ST77/79 are probably my favorites for "affordable" condenser mics. I wouldn't describe any of em as really being exactly like a U87 (the closest of those mentioned to that sound would be the Baby Bottle and the ST77/79).

I also like the CAD M177/179 (I got a pair of M177 for like $160 a couple months ago, they are great utility mics and awesome on toms makes me wonder if I should try some AE3000 mics on my toms and sell my M177 pair????).

A mic that sounds really good for less money would be the Soundelux U95/U99!

[anguswoodhead]

Have a listen to the sound clip here and tell me a JLM modded Chinese mic doesn't sound half bad - cheap too.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...le-photos.html

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Have a listen to the sound clip here and tell me a JLM modded Chinese mic doesn't sound half bad - cheap too.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...le-photos.html

Well that's a nice voice you got there, too bad I don't have any money to spend right now. I just got a Novation Remote Zero SL Midi Controller

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Well that's a nice voice you got there, too bad I don't have any money to spend right now. I just got a Novation Remote Zero SL Midi Controller

Well thank ya very much - congrats on the Publishing too mate.

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Have a listen to the sound clip here and tell me a JLM modded Chinese mic doesn't sound half bad - cheap too.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...le-photos.html

That's the best sounding cheap mic clip I've heard.

However, I know that compression can thicken things up a bit and add some punch. Is it possible to hear a clip of simply mic and pre?

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

That's the best sounding cheap mic clip I've heard.

However, I know that compression can thicken things up a bit and add some punch. Is it possible to hear a clip of simply mic and pre?

Thanks dude - Joe Malone knows what he is doing.
I record everything with compression so it is just second nature for me - sorry.
If I get motivated I may record something on the mic straight without compression.

[Michael_Joly]

Had a chance to today to look inside a Gauge ECM 87. This is the exact same mic as a Nady SCM 900 manufactured by Alctron in Ningbo, China.

When I say exact, I mean exact - down to the "SCM900" model number silk screened on the back PC board (lower left pic). All components are the same, including the rough sounding ceramic capacitor between capsule and FET. Anyone who has taken the barrel off their budget Chinese mic will recognize the blue push button LF roll-off switch on the front PC board (lower right).

This is a standard issue Chinese mic with Alctron 32mm K67-style capsule driving a flat-response transformerless circuit. It has excessive brightness because the built-in HF rise of the K67-style capsule is not compensated with a HF de-emphasis network as was done in the U 67 and U 87 mics.

Nothing new here except the hype. Same too bright, too "eshhy", too sibiliant sound that plauges every re-branded Alctron HSMC002 mic.

[Matti]

Yes, I kind of knew it without looking even

Matti

[Obitheincredible]

Does it sound good though? I canceled my order with fear of this exact same thing and am glad I canceled it. Would you recommend it to try as a first time mod mic?

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Obitheincredible

Would you recommend it to try as a first time mod mic?

No. There are less expensive mics available that sound better - modified or stock. The MXL V67g for example.

The CAD GXL 3000 three-pattern mic for $99 is a good mod platform. Convert the headbasket to a single layer, replace the capsule with a Peluso PK-47, re-wire to avoid the capacitive losses in the stock wiring, re-bias the 2nd stage so it clips after the FET instead of 7dB before, replace the polarized signal path caps. The output transformer is fine and can stay.

Even cheaper is the MCA SP-1 - same circuit as the Gauge 87. Either keep the small diaphragm capsule it comes with or drop in a PK-47. The usual signal path upgrades apply - FET, coupling caps along with a single layer headbasket conversion.

[Heartfelt]

My suspicion confirmed that a couple of engineers thought they could rebrand a Chinese mic and sell off of their names.

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Had a chance to today to look inside a Gauge ECM 87. This is the exact same mic as a Nady SCM 900 manufactured by Alctron in Ningbo, China.

...Thank You Mr. Joly!...the Nady is a $50 mic, so maybe they meant to call their company "GOUGE" and just misspelled it...next case...

[Chris Lago]

Haha, I gave mine away Somehow I feel like selling my Kel Audio HM-7U. Anyone wants to swap for an HM-2D? It's way too warm for me, sounds like the kind of mic to use for low tempo, jazz stuff, or oldies style. Reminds me of the 414 a little, with a neutral sound. It's up for grabs, used it 4 times.

I just like my M-Audio Luna better. I don't have to EQ as much!

So I decided, 180us for the mic, or a trade for an Hm-2D

[Obitheincredible]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Haha, I gave mine away Somehow I feel like selling my Kel Audio HM-7U. Anyone wants to swap for an HM-2D? It's way too warm for me, sounds like the kind of mic to use for low tempo, jazz stuff, or oldies style. Reminds me of the 414 a little, with a neutral sound. It's up for grabs, used it 4 times.

I just like my M-Audio Luna better. I don't have to EQ as much!

So I decided, 180us for the mic, or a trade for an Hm-2D

PM sent.

[Chris Lago]

Great, hopefully I can sell it today. It's too bad that it didn't work for me, I wanted it to work so bad but I kept going back to my M-Audio Luna for my voice. It just fits my vocal style more.

[Matti]

I´had these mics different times-5, I think- but sold them in the end.
But they are ok for 70$ or so what they sell if you find a dealer

Matti

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Great, hopefully I can sell it today. It's too bad that it didn't work for me, I wanted it to work so bad but I kept going back to my M-Audio Luna for my voice. It just fits my vocal style more.

I was hoping this thread could shift from a search for a cheap U 87 toward a discussion about what goes into making a fine microphone like the U 87 - or a cheap copy of one. That's why I posted my findings regarding the Gauge ECM 87 - as talking points that could hopefully inform other folks search for a U 87-sounding mic. The most salient being the K67 capsule used in the U 87 (and copied in 90% of the Chinese mics) was designed to be followed by a high frequency roll-off circuit. If you want U 87 sound you have to have a K67-style capsule followed by a HF de-emphasis circuit - not a flat response circuit as is universally found in these inexpensive mics.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

I was hoping this thread could shift from a search for a cheap U 87 toward a discussion about what goes into making a fine microphone - or a cheap copy of one. That's why I posted my findings regarding the Gauge ECM 87.

Yeah I hear you, well it's all about quality parts really. All the better mics usually have better parts and are fine tuned properly. You would know that more than me of course.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Yeah I hear you, well it's all about quality parts really. All the better mics usually have better parts and are fine tuned properly. You would know that more than me of course.

No. Its not just about quality parts. Its about implementing the correct topology. This means including a HF de-emphasis circuit following a K67-style capsule if you want a U 87 sound.

There is so much marketing obfuscation around microphones. Does the M Audio Luna use a K67-style, K47 style or a unique design capsule? Is the frequency response of the circuit arrange to provide a complementary response to the capsule? Are the gain stages arranged so that there is the most euphonic onset of distortion (FET first, transformer second, bipolar stages last)?

I would love to read a manufacturers spec page that claims they've correctly implemented the use of a K67-style capsule with a HF de-emphasis circuit. Oh, but that would mean they would have to first acknowledge they're using a Chinese copy of a K67 capsule. But instead we're fed a constant barrage of meaningless terms like "warm", "vintage sound", "class A" and "+/-1dB tolerance across entire frequency range" (+/- 1 dB of what?).

There was a time when audio engineering was populated by engineers - people who spoke with precision because they valued truth.

[Corran]

Interesting! As that radio guy used to say - "And now you know, the rest of the story..."

No surprise I guess. I hope they do at least check for DOA mics. That might be worth the premium to someone.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

No. Its not just about quality parts. Its about implementing the correct topology. This means including a HF de-emphasis circuit following a K67-style capsule if you want a U 87 sound.

There is so much marketing obfuscation around microphones. Does the M Audio Luna use a K67-style, K47 style or a unique design capsule? Is the frequency response of the circuit arrange to provide a complementary response to the capsule? Are the gain stages arranged so that there is the most euphonic onset of distortion (FET first, transformer second, bipolar stages last)?

Oh ok, I had no idea. As for my Luna, I don't know at all, but it sounds really good everytime I use it, it's great for RNB, suits my voice very well.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Oh ok, I had no idea. As for my Luna, I don't know at all, but it sounds really good everytime I use it, it's great for RNB, suits my voice very well.

That's great. Its wonderful to find a mic that works so well with your voice.

But this is the point that gets really interesting for me - why does it work so well? What is it about the headbasket, capsule, wiring, FET choice, impedance converter and output stage that makes this mic work on your voice while other mics you've tried have failed?

I'm all for egalitarian access to recording tools. But in my opinion, we as a community need to get back to a more rigorous analysis and description of the engineering tools we use and how we communicate to others the sound impressions they make. For example, Bill Putnam and Les Paul quantified what they heard using acoustical and electrical engineering terminology and didn't just sling vague subjective impressions.

[Chaellus]

Originally Posted by Skorch Trakz

i dont know why people like u87. they sound pretty bad to me. or maybe the stuff we used it on, the pre was good. but it wasnt sounding to good. or maybe it didnt suit the artist? i dont see why for all the hype it has

i agree never liked the U87 but if you eq it to taste then it sometimes works but im not excited for it or anything.. SM57-58-7,U47,121,421 are some of my top fav mics especially the 121

[The Dark Lord]

Check out the LD-1 by Pacific Pro Audio...During a session sit in, I witnessed an established engineer mention how close it comes to a U87...run it through a neve or api and you'll be set...

[Michael_Joly]

Right. Another $99 house-branded Alctron mic that's a shoe in for a U 87. When will it end? At least the MCA SP-1 for $39 has an interesting story - it uses an attempted-copy of a KM 84 SDC capsule hiding in a side-address LDC-style headbasket.

Back story - Pacific Pro Audio was the agent that stepped in to purchase the Tape Op group buy ribbon microphones from Alctron on behalf of the group buyers. They've been bringing in rebranded Chinese mics longer than most - I guess that makes them Vintage.

[popmann]

If the Luna is a solid state version of the Maudio Sputnik...it's a center terminated diaphragm. IMO, they did the right thing in not calling it modelled after this or that old mic...but, instead a new design trying to have some of the nice qualities of the C12 and some of the 47. I thought the sputnik was a nice mic...it's actually the only sub $3k (new manufacture) LDC that really did a great job on my voice. And the 87i always suited me well.

...so, if the Luna design is related, I get why you'd like it. It doesn't sound "like" an 87...but, it works on me-much like an 87i does.

[Heartfelt]

Uh-Huh, sure

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Check out the LD-1 by Pacific Pro Audio...During a session sit in, I witnessed an established engineer mention how close it comes to a U87...run it through a neve or api and you'll be set...

[kidvybes]

...someone please put this thread to bed...