Drum Tracking help

[WD40]

I'm a newby at posting here, and record my own music as a hobby (so be gentle)

I could use some advice on drum tracking. (Please don't answer with "use your ears" or "buy better mics")

1st of all, my room is 13' x 20' and VERY dead.
I have the following mics to use:
(7) sm57's, (2)MXL 603's, (2)AKG C1000's, (1) EV RE-20, (1) Studio Projects C1, and (1) AKG C3000.

I can record 8 max tracks at a time. I've been reading about glyn johns and recorderman OH setups, and thought I would try a combo of recorderman and close micing.

I would like to mix in some natural room sound, so my thought was to use the C1 for that purpose, although with a very dead room to record in, I'm wondering if the 8th track could be used more wisely with something else.

Give me your suggestions for what mic's to use.

Here's my initial thought:
Mic 1. Snare top: sm57
Mic 2. Snare bottom: C1000 (hyper capsule)
Mic 3. Kick: RE20
Mic 4. Rack Tom: sm57
Mic 5. Floor tom: C3000 or sm57 ??
Mic 6 & 7: Overheads: 603's
Mic 8: Room: C1 - or - kick (beater side) w/sm57 ??

If I do decide to record the room, would it be advisable to copy that track, add some delay and pan for a more stereo image? Or is that a dumbass waste of time thing to do?

Your opinions and expertise are much appreciated.

-Gary

[aermotor]

You'll be surprised what 1 room mic can do in even a small room, it helps a bunch. Compress the heck out of it with a Fairchild 660 plug if you got it or experiment with that, the drums will come alive even in a tiny space. My space is smaller than yours and it work great for me. It would be best to record it with a large condenser but if you only have the 2 603's that's fine, use whatever else you got.

The mic setups you have seen fine, I don't think there's any reason to mic the beater side of the kick though.

You could always see if you really need the snare bottom and if not, use 2 mics for the room for a decent stereo image. Have fun and just try different things.

Here's a track where everything was done in my small-ish room, not really sure if I used a room or not, but it sounds like it:

http://aermotorstudio.com/The-Parson...l-As-Usual.mp3

[PhiloBeddoe]

+1 on trying the stereo rooms. At least get the mono room and pay attention to the placement, easy to get way too much cymbal brittleness in a small room.

[imgoinmad]

I love the RE20 for the kick. On the beater side I generally skip, although once we really wanted a heavy attack so we taped a quarter to the head and mic'd the beater which gave us exactly what we needed.

I generally like a nice XY patter on an overhead to give the stereo space. I think i've even used C1000's for that at one point

[James Meeker]

You're going to get more mileage out of a stereo room than you will miking under the snare. I'd do that.

Room mics are your friends. Your very best friends.

[WD40]

Thanks for your input.

We spent alot of time last night getting drums tweaked, positioning mics, etc.. and I gotta say, it's friggin dissapointing.

I tried the recorderman method for OH's at 1st (via the Youtube "directions"), and couldn't get the drummers right mic at a good spot. (-With one OH mic directly above the snare (2 stick + distance), the drummers right mic ended up pointing directly at the drummers shoulder/back).
Anyone else have this problem?
I ended up skipping the kick measurement & just worried about spacing OH's equally from the snare.

The OH's ended up sounding bland and lacking punch (even after some extensive EQing). It does not appear to be a phase issue - Maybe the mics were too high?
From what I've read, the 603's are (supposed) to be comparable to the MK-012's. It's my 1st time trying them, and so far - not so impressed. (But it's probably me).

The room mic sounded like dookey (even when I put it just a tad under everything else). Probably a placement issue here.

The kick sounds good without any beater side mic, like y'all said.. No prob there. (I really love that re20 - it's very forgiving).
The underside snare mic was worthless, and it sounds better without even the slightest bit in the mix.
I opted for a 57 on the floor tom.

I think I'll try using both C1000's as a stereo room pair, per your suggestions. You think those would be OK to use for that ? (since I don't have a matched pair of LDC's) Or do you think I would be better off sticking with 1 LDC? (or using both the C1 and the C3000 as a mismatched pair??)
Generally, where should I be looking to place Room mic(s) in such a overly treated room?

I'm going to have to experiment further with OH's.
I would like a good stereo image, so I'm resistant to XY.
Any tips for placing OH's would help a ton. Should I just place them how I think and not worry too much about distance (phasing) to the snare & individual drums/cymbals? Any hard and fast rules? (aside from 3-to-1)?

Thanks again. You guys are such a great resource.

-Gary

(PS - James - Your tips for tracking drums are like the "21 commandments" to me at this point. -You're a friggin superstar )

[WD40]

By the way -

aermotor - Really great sounding track. I would be thrilled to get that drum tone.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

You're going to get more mileage out of a stereo room than you will miking under the snare. I'd do that.

Room mics are your friends. Your very best friends.

I agree completely. I rarely have much success with under-snare mics...maybe it's just me.

Frank

[tomeford]

a simple method for tweaking mic positions.

if you have the mic on a flat angle pointing towards where the stick is hitting the drum you will get more attack.. having it on a steep angle pointing closer to the rim will give more tone of the drum itself..

also, dont be affraid using two different mics for overheads.. i've found this to give more colour to the kit.

dont waste your time overEQing. You should be able to get a good sound without.

to get best OH positions I try and get them in a spot where the floor tom and snare sound good. I then persuade the drummer to let me angle his cymbals to get them sounding good too.
The angle of the cymbals relative to the mic makes a huge difference in tone.

It might be wise to mic up the hats with the c1000.
point it right at where the stick hits. If too much spill you can compress it with the snare as a sidechain input. (easily done in pro tools)


hope this helps

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by WD40

(PS - James - Your tips for tracking drums are like the "21 commandments" to me at this point. -You're a friggin superstar )

Just don't try to do 'em all at once!

Keep in mind that there are two things probably more important than mic/placement as far as sound goes (barring the player):

1.) The room

2.) Drum tuning

A few other things to keep in mind:

-Keep in mind that nasty/cheap cymbals can be nightmares--pointless to record with that.

-Get the kit sounding great in the room, and THEN start miking!

-If you have a less-than-stellar room don't put the recorded source (or any mics) in the middle of the room where the modes are strongest.

-I find that rooms sound best in 1/3rds... so divide the room's length/width by 3 and put stuff there. Put the room mic on the far third, and so on. If this doesn't make sense PM me and I'll explain it better.

-Improvised sound proofing/absorption/diffusion beats not taking care of any issues. Try to get the room to work FOR you, not against you (or at least minimize it).

Hope some of this helps. An average drum kit in an average room with average mics should still sound pretty good if you everything right. Maybe you need to concentrate on the source harder, rather than placement/mic and so on.

[aermotor]

Yea I agree, if your drums don't sound good, you're sorta screwed from the start, so get them sounding as good as possible. However I've had shitty sounding drums turn out great sometimes.

It's really pretty simple and a lot has to do with post/mastering.

Try OH's maybe 1 foot or so above the crash and play with the placement either left/right or forward/back depending how much or little crash you want and how much snare/hat you want to pick up. Close mic everything else.

If you're room isn't amazing sounding, the mic won't sound good at all, that's maybe what you're hearing. Smash it with a compressor and play with the mix and see how it sounds.

Perhaps you can post a sample of what you got so we can maybe diagnose what you've got going on.

[WD40]

Keep in mind that there are two things probably more important than mic/placement as far as sound goes (barring the player):

1.) The room

2.) Drum tuning

1. The room is OVERLY treated. I went a little wild with auralex and it pretty much sucks your breath away like a vacuum when you walk in. Not good for drum tracking, I understand. But good isolation for everything else none the less.
2. The drums are actually pretty nice. A late 50's Gretch in great shape with fresh heads. The cymbals are nice (I'm no drummer, so I can't tell you off the top o my head what model #, etc...). He even cleaned em before coming over to setup.
3. The player is a good seasoned player. Knows how to hit em, tune em, etc...

I think the problem is me.

I'm wondering if phasing with the snare is really something to worry about. Since I'm close micing, I feel like the cymbals and the HH are the most important thing to capture with the OH's.
I'm gonna fool around with it as a spaced pair, and take your advice w/ room mics. I think I put the room mic too low to the floor the 1st time around.

As far as HH micing. - Should I mic that seperate and use only 1 room mic? Tomford, I understand what you're saying about sidechaining to duck the HH under the snare. Good idea (although I've never setup a sidechain to do that, and it might be a little advanced for my newby ass).

I really appreciate your support and advice. I'll let you know how it comes out and maybe send out a rough copy to get your advice/critique.
(Drums are such a pain the arse!)

Thanks again. Coming from a newby's perspective, it's really nice to have experts like y'all to bounce this off with.

-gary

[tomeford]

If you are using pro tools the sidechain feature is really simple. Send me a pm and I can explain to you. If its in anything else, from my experience it gets a bit tricky. Or if you have an external comp with sidechain its also pretty easy.

I would 100% have a hats mic rather than stereo room. In that room you might not even use one room mic. although it can be handy. when I am recording drums at home I chuck a rode NT2 in the bathroom. Its always fun to put a flanger on the room mic for a drum solo.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by tomeford

a simple method for tweaking mic positions.

if you have the mic on a flat angle pointing towards where the stick is hitting the drum you will get more attack.. having it on a steep angle pointing closer to the rim will give more tone of the drum itself..

also, dont be affraid using two different mics for overheads.. i've found this to give more colour to the kit.

dont waste your time overEQing. You should be able to get a good sound without.

to get best OH positions I try and get them in a spot where the floor tom and snare sound good. I then persuade the drummer to let me angle his cymbals to get them sounding good too.
The angle of the cymbals relative to the mic makes a huge difference in tone.

It might be wise to mic up the hats with the c1000.
point it right at where the stick hits. If too much spill you can compress it with the snare as a sidechain input. (easily done in pro tools)


hope this helps

SOT...Hey tomeford..I note you say don't be afraid to try two different overhead mics. So this is feasible since I don't have a "stereo pair".?. I have a Cad E-200 and an Oktava 319.. What do you think about these? Thanks..

[aermotor]

For your room mics put something reflective in the corners of on the walls and face the mics at them maybe 2-3 feet way, that way you'll get a little bit of hard reflections from the drums and it might help the room sound a bit, not sure.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by WD40

Thanks for your input.

We spent alot of time last night getting drums tweaked, positioning mics, etc.. and I gotta say, it's friggin dissapointing.

I tried the recorderman method for OH's at 1st (via the Youtube "directions"), and couldn't get the drummers right mic at a good spot. (-With one OH mic directly above the snare (2 stick + distance), the drummers right mic ended up pointing directly at the drummers shoulder/back).
Anyone else have this problem?
I ended up skipping the kick measurement & just worried about spacing OH's equally from the snare.

The OH's ended up sounding bland and lacking punch (even after some extensive EQing). It does not appear to be a phase issue - Maybe the mics were too high?
From what I've read, the 603's are (supposed) to be comparable to the MK-012's. It's my 1st time trying them, and so far - not so impressed. (But it's probably me).

The room mic sounded like dookey (even when I put it just a tad under everything else). Probably a placement issue here.

The kick sounds good without any beater side mic, like y'all said.. No prob there. (I really love that re20 - it's very forgiving).
The underside snare mic was worthless, and it sounds better without even the slightest bit in the mix.
I opted for a 57 on the floor tom.

I think I'll try using both C1000's as a stereo room pair, per your suggestions. You think those would be OK to use for that ? (since I don't have a matched pair of LDC's) Or do you think I would be better off sticking with 1 LDC? (or using both the C1 and the C3000 as a mismatched pair??)
Generally, where should I be looking to place Room mic(s) in such a overly treated room?

I'm going to have to experiment further with OH's.
I would like a good stereo image, so I'm resistant to XY.
Any tips for placing OH's would help a ton. Should I just place them how I think and not worry too much about distance (phasing) to the snare & individual drums/cymbals? Any hard and fast rules? (aside from 3-to-1)?

Thanks again. You guys are such a great resource.

-Gary

(PS - James - Your tips for tracking drums are like the "21 commandments" to me at this point. -You're a friggin superstar )

I tried the recordman setup a few times...it's alright, but I have gone back to spaced pair for wider image.
I would't worry too much about equal spacing from the snare on the overheads...if it works out that way, cool, but normally the floor toms and ride are much further away from the snare than the hat side, so screw it..who cares if it is slightly out of dead center in the overheads, the 2 close mics on the snare will over rule that in the mix to make it a non issue.
The "quality" of sound should be there with just the overheads before moving on to the close mics or room mics...if not, yeah..there's the starting point of trial and error.
Maybe the c1000's would do better? Are the preamps decent? Shit, I borrowed a few nice pre's to a friend of mine who was using 002 pre's and convertors. He bought an apogee convertor, and using my pre's with the same sm81's....BIG difference.
Again, a decent sounding kit should sound good through a decent preamp and spaced pair mics with little or no eq. That is the starting point to fix one way or another.
Maybe a Gearslut Brotha local to you would help you by bringing some gear over to A-B compare? Renting can be a bit expensive.

Good luck!!

[BSMo]

I record drums using a Shure 55SH. And that's all.

About two drumstick lengths (two feet, I guess, roughly) in front of the bass drum. Take some time positioning the kit and the height of the mic. Although you don't have a 55SH in your set-up, maybe try it with you RE-20? Give it a go, you might be suprised by the results.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by BSMo

I record drums using a Shure 55SH. And that's all.

About two drumstick lengths (two feet, I guess, roughly) in front of the bass drum. Take some time positioning the kit and the height of the mic. Although you don't have a 55SH in your set-up, maybe try it with you RE-20? Give it a go, you might be suprised by the results.

Haha..yeah, been a while, but back in the day about 25 years ago I did quite a few 1 mic drum recordings...I had to make serious compromises using a 4 track cassette recorder. (track 1 drums, 2 Bass, 3 guitar, 4 vocals / guitar solo)
While 1 mic drum recording is not "too hot", your point of trying minimal micing can produce great results.
I used to get great results with as little as 4 mics...L-R overheads, 1 kick and 1 snare.

[imgoinmad]

Originally Posted by WD40

The room mic sounded like dookey (even when I put it just a tad under everything else). Probably a placement issue here.

The kick sounds good without any beater side mic, like y'all said.. No prob there. (I really love that re20 - it's very forgiving).
The underside snare mic was worthless, and it sounds better without even the slightest bit in the mix.

I think I'll try using both C1000's as a stereo room pair, per your suggestions. You think those would be OK to use for that ?

Generally, where should I be looking to place Room mic(s) in such a overly treated room?

I'm going to have to experiment further with OH's.
I would like a good stereo image, so I'm resistant to XY.
Any tips for placing OH's would help a ton. Should I just place them how I think and not worry too much about distance (phasing) to the snare & individual drums/cymbals? Any hard and fast rules? (aside from 3-to-1)?

With that room mic, i'd put it straight in front of the kit, out about 4-5' pointed at the kit.

Like I said before that RE20 rocks on a kick, by far one of my favorite mics for that use.

The underside of the snare, if you're using it make sure you're reversiing the phase or it will cause phase issues with the over the snare mic.

With the overheads's I'd definitely give those C1000's a shot and believe me if you're worried about stereo with an XY pattern, don't. XY on a drum kit can give you really amazing stereo. If you aren't sure, stick the headphones on after setting up your mics and give them a listen.

I'd place them about a foot above the top of the drummer's head, directly above the center of the drum kit pointed down (in an xy pattern of course) like this photo ==>
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0...rheadsxy.l.jpg

[WD40]

Great suggestions from everyone. Keep em coming.

I didn't have a chance to mess with it last night.

BSMo: Yeah, I've done some minimal micing on drums before, but this time I wanted a more modern drum sound.

I've used C1000's on the OH's before and thought they sounded OK. Everyone on this site (and other sites) rag on them though. The reviews of the MXL 603's are really good (Harvey Gerst says they're comparable to the MK-012's, and in the SDC shootout, I thought those sounded fantastic on OH's).
So for $100/pair for the MXL's, I figured what the Hell?
To me, they seem alot less punchy, compressed and weak, and are much more directional.
I'll try different mic placements before giving up on them though.

imgoinmad: I'll give the XY a shot again per your suggestion.
I'm also going to mess with more of a spaced pair without worrying too much about the snare being centered, as per aermotors suggestion.

Good idea about using something reflective in the corners. I have some plywood sheets that I'll bring in to liven up the room a bit.

As far as preamps and such... well... This is the "low end" room right?
I still use a hard-disc Roland unit: The VS1824. (oh the shame of it all).
For additional preamps, I have an Art DPS, and a modded SP VTB-1.
I put the OH's through the DPS, and the kick through the VTB1. Everything else is going through the VS1824's stock pre's.
So, for sidechaining the internal compressor, I'm not really sure how to do that, although I think it's possible. (I had to sell off my RNC just before Xmas ).

For the under-the snare mic - yeah, I did reverse the phase. It might have been the mic choice there though. From what I'm hearing, I will skip that mic anyway, and use that channel for an additional (stereo) room mic or to mic the HH. (I'm leaning towards the stereo room if I can get the HH good through the OH's).

I can tell, I've got alot of playing around before I get something I like.

It really helps to get ideas from y'all though. Thanks a ton.

-Gary

[imgoinmad]

I love tracking drums and working to get a great sound. I really enjoy a fat drum sound and find that recording a killer sound on your drums really brings out the best in the rest of your recording/mix process.

On the XY thing I guess I also like it for overheads because in addition to nice stereo, you eliminate phase issues between those 2 mics.

I'm in agreement with most who have posted here on the under snare mic, I've had varying results from it and have found little reason to do it.

tomeford's comment regarding mic angle is extremely valid.

Originally Posted by tomeford

a simple method for tweaking mic positions.
if you have the mic on a flat angle pointing towards where the stick is hitting the drum you will get more attack.. having it on a steep angle pointing closer to the rim will give more tone of the drum itself..

Throw the headphones on and spend time posititioning the mic on each drum finding the sweet spot for the attack and tone you're looking for.

Regarding your comments about how people dispareage the C1000's, keep in mind that everything gear related is subjective and open for personal preference and more than anything remember that you have to work with what is available to you. You'll want to make the best of what you have and find the optimal combination (for your ears) to get there. If you find the C1000's or other mics you have never meet your expectations then at that point you can consider doing an upgrade. In the meantime this is what you have so experiment. I'm not familiar with the MXL 603's so I can comment on those, I have used a pair of C1000's once as a set of overheads and was pleased with the results. Experimentation is (for me) what makes this all enjoyable.

[litepipe]

Personally I don't like tracking drums in a overly treated room. I also always like to have atleast 1 room mic up. I tend to move things around a bit. For instance the exact angle of the top snare mic can really change the sound.

So aside from tryin to match the tone of the drums to the song because (the same mic set-up is not going to work for everything) there are other options for tone... I think the first step is a good sounding kit. And mostly I mean that's it tuned well. This is also dependent on the song. If this isn't right then it's an uphill battle. Drum heads, the sticks you're using and the velocity to which the drummer is hitting the head all change tone a lot. Are the drum sticks wooden or nylon tip? That effects the drum tone too not just the cymbals which most people notice first.

Also don't loose track that the drum kit is supposed to sound like one instrument. I think of the spot mics as a compliment to the overheads and room mics. I get most of my tone from the OH and Room. Also depends on what kind of music you're doing.

You might have to make requests to the drummer to hit the snare harder and the cymbals lighter as an example. If they are a seasoned player they will have no problem doing this. It starts at the player. The better they sound in the room the better they will track.

Spend your time on each mike. Don't just set them up and print. Listen to each mic separately and move to taste. Don't try to fix it in the mix later. Spend the time up front to dial it in.

Also, sometimes you only need 2 mics If you have the right player, the right room and the right song... Take some time to experiment on your own.

There is really no easy answer for all of this. I think you have to have a clear idea of what kind of drum sound you're going for. That will answer some questions.

[WD40]

I really enjoy a fat drum sound and find that recording a killer sound on your drums really brings out the best in the rest of your recording/mix process.

I totally agree: Thats why I'm so concerned about getting it right.
(Although, I can't say I'm "enjoying" all the frustrations associated with it).

everything gear related is subjective and open for personal preference and more than anything remember that you have to work with what is available to you.

AMEN BROTHER!
I have to keep telling myself that it's more inside the ear than the gear.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by aermotor

For your room mics put something reflective in the corners of on the walls and face the mics at them maybe 2-3 feet way, that way you'll get a little bit of hard reflections from the drums and it might help the room sound a bit, not sure.

I do this in "less than optimal" rooms and it usually works great with little effort.

Also, maybe run the room mic through a convolution reverb with some IRs that are similar to the size of your room, but sound better.

+1 on the drum tuning and good cymbals. Forget about good drum sounds unless this is done.

Another thing. Don't forget about the song. Many times, once the drums are in the mix, they might work better than you think while soloed.
I've recorded not-so-great sounding drums that ended up working good for the song, and I've had really good sounding drums that didn't work at all for the song.

good luck

[WD40]

I worked on this some more last night on my own, and feel much better about it (and the 603 mics)

Thanks to everyone who kept insisting on giving the XY OH's a shot. I LOVE IT. It's easy and it sounds great. Why I even bothered with anything else is beyond me (especially on a "no-frills" kit). The MXL's sound really good now.

Originally Posted by aermotor
For your room mics put something reflective in the corners of on the walls and face the mics at them maybe 2-3 feet way, that way you'll get a little bit of hard reflections from the drums and it might help the room sound a bit, not sure.

This worked out great. It took some time getting plywood placed and messing with the mic distance, but it sounds way better. THANKS for the great tip!

I ended up using only 1 room mic, and opted for micing the HH instead. It adds a nice sizzle that's lacking in the OH's.
On a test track of the single room mic, I played around with some delay, panning, and nudging to get a wide stereo field. I think it will work out great.

Thanks to everyone for your help. (This site is really great).

Now comes the hard part - actually getting a good performance to print!

Once everything is tracked, I would love to get some opinions about eq, compression, etc... Any of you slutz willing to mentor a poor soul learning this stuff?

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by WD40

Once everything is tracked, I would love to get some opinions about eq, compression, etc... Any of you slutz willing to mentor a poor soul learning this stuff?

Check out the Tips & Techniques section, there's great info about this kind of stuff in there.

[WD40]

Check out the Tips & Techniques section, there's great info about this kind of stuff in there.

Believe me, I read those things religously. I also have books, mags, etc... I understand the basic concepts, but being able to truly "hear it" comes through experience. It would be nice to have someone with more experience than me critique some things, and hopefully make me better at it.

[aermotor]

Glad to hear that worked out well for you, just keep doing more!

[imgoinmad]

Someone above mentioned how they start with the overheads and then accent with the close mic'd tracks. I usually start the same way, start with the OH's and then bring up the other tracks (panned same as the overhead stereo track but maybe alittle more exaggerated). Since I start with the OH's in the XY above the center of the kit, my mix perspective then becomes imagine myself in the drummers seat to get the panning proper, putting yourself in the drummers seat helps you get that fat sound. Snare a little left of center, tom's straight ahead and to the right, etc etc