Very specific questions re: converters

[doncaparker]

I've done some searching here on GS, and there is lots on this topic, including some current threads. However, I have some pretty specific questions about converters, and I hope a few of you more experienced folks can help me out.

I am trying to make sure I have adequate quality ad/da conversion going on, relative to the quality of everything else in my sound chain. Here are my tools at this point:

• An OK treated room in my home (lots of OC 703-filled bags in the corners and on the walls, in what I think are the right places)
• The computer tower is in an adjoining room, for noise control
• Vocals through either a Shure SM-7B or a CAD M179
• Acoustic guitar through a pair of Oktava MK-012s or a pair of CAD M179s
• Mogami cable and Neutrik connectors, pretty short runs
• Two Grace 101 pres
• E-Mu 1212m soundcard (this is the piece of gear I want to talk about)
• Decent PC running XP
• Reaper recording software, ReValver III for electrics, BFD for drums
• Presonus HP4 for headphone monitoring
• Sennheiser HD 280 headphones
• Alesis RA-100 power amp for out-loud monitoring
• KRK ST6 passives for out-loud monitoring

I bought the 1212m based on a fair amount of research here on GS. The normal problems people have with this card do not affect me. I can work Patchmix just fine, and the drivers are fine, because I am committed to sticking with XP (I tried Vista, and it sucks with the 1212m). The 1212m works really well with my current computer. No glitches.

But, the question is, am I getting ad/da conversion that is good enough quality for what I want to do?

A few more factors:

• I only need two balanced ins and outs.
• I am only recording at 24-bit, 44.1 kHz. I doubt I will need 96 kHz anytime soon.
• I don't go in and out of the soundcard for outboard effects. Everything is processed ITB. Once I convert the signal to digital, I don't go back and forth.
• The only MIDI needs I have are with BFD. So, there are no external devices to worry about.
• I am shooting for good quality recordings of voice and acoustic guitar, "good" meaning not out of place on, say, the Sirius Coffeehouse channel. It's OK if the recordings sound homemade, but I want the tonal quality to be clear and true to the source. Maybe "better than average" for acoustic recording is what I am shooting for.

Some related questions about converters in my specific situation:

• If I were to upgrade to stand-alone converters (a stereo unit or units, like RME, or Lucid, or maybe even Mytek), would it matter if I just keep the E-Mu 1212m as my sound card? I mean, if I have great converters feeding a digital signal to the 1212m, what can the sound card "screw up" at that point? Isn't it just a means for the digital signal to be moved around within the computer? I am fine with the functionality of the 1212m for that purpose. Like I said, I have figured Patchmix out, and it works. I just have questions about the quality of the conversion going on in that card.
• If I were to get outboard converters, does it make sense to start with a really good ad converter, and just use the 1212m da conversion for now, or should I not bother until I can do both at the same time?
• Given my modest in/out needs, would a different card like a Lynxone, Lynx L22 or RME HDSP 9632 be a significant step up from the 1212m, or should I not bother until I can get stand-alone converters? I can get a used Lynxone for relatively little $, and I can live with its limitations (they match my needs, as outlined above). If the ad/da is much, much better than the 1212m, then I might go that direction. If the difference is minimal, I might not bother.

Some of you may respond by asking whether I like how the 1212m sounds, and if so, why am I looking to switch. I guess the answer is that I really don't have any good way of comparing the 1212m to something better unless and until I pull the trigger and buy something. I am sure the 1212m sounds better than the Aardvark unit I was using before. I think the 1212m sounds good. If I could describe any discernible weakness (in the absence of a direct comparison), it is that the highs of my recordings seem a bit (just a bit) muffled compared to reference CDs. I wind up boosting higher frequencies to compensate. That bugs me.

Anyway, this is a pretty long post, so I'll stop for now. Any guidance you can provide this hack hobbyist would be greatly appreciated.

[Yodah]

In all honesty....I am not trying to sell you on anything, but whats your budget.
Second...most people who spend 2000 + on converters..either need it.. or can afford to just buy whatever they want whether they need it or not.
You can get better A/D and don't have to spend that much. However, D/A is important because that's how you hear what's going on in the A/D and everything in between. And looking at your needs I would research on a better interface that will give you a better A/D and D/A. I think thats money better spent. I used to own a lynxone.... been so long though. I have not owned the 1212m so I really can't comment on it's performance. But definitely check around before you pull the trigger on a 2-channel converter.....not that it won't sound better but, their may be other solutions that fit your needs, or may improve your sound from a overall perspective oppose to just A/D

[kooz]

Originally Posted by doncaparker

But, the question is, am I getting ad/da conversion that is good enough quality for what I want to do?

<snip>

If I could describe any discernible weakness (in the absence of a direct comparison), it is that the highs of my recordings seem a bit (just a bit) muffled compared to reference CDs. I wind up boosting higher frequencies to compensate. That bugs me.

How do your mixes translate? If they're pretty consistent from system to system, room to room, radio to big-ass PA system, there's really no need to change your equipment out. Big differences means there's definitely something amiss.

Muffled sounding/lack of high end could be simply from being too "on mic" to minimize room effect...but you've done treatment, so maybe you should trust that: back off the mics a bit, open up the preamps and see what happens. Or perhaps you've overdone your room treatment, and need some diffusion rather than absorption.

Really, a couple dB of high end boost for "air" or "shine" or whatever isn't that big a deal.

[doncaparker]

In terms of a budget, I can probably spend up to $400-500 now, or save that and spend more later on something nicer. But, not too much nicer, because in the context of the other equipment I am using, I cannot see spending over $1,000 just on converters; that just feels like overkill to me, comared to the other parts of my sound chain. That's probably why I am focusing on, if anything, moving up to an arguably nicer soundcard with built-in ad/da. Lynx or RME are the primary choices I am considering; anything below those two and I'm pretty much in the same level of quality I already have, so what's the point of changing?

I have been interested in some used Lynxone cards I have seen advertised, or an RME hdsp 9632. However, if the difference between the Lynxone or the RME and the 1212m is not that big (just focusing on ad/da), then again, what's the point of changing?

So, I guess this comes down to what people think of the 1212m in comparison to a Lynxone or an RME hdsp 9632, just comparing the ad/da. Any thoughts?

[doncaparker]

Bump. You can bump in this section of the forum, right? I guess I just did.

Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Fluner]

imo your KRK's are probably the weakest link
I've never had mixes translate well from lower-end KRK's
they are simply inaccurate

you'd be fine sticking w your Emu card

[KingDiamond]

If the I/O on the 1212M suits you fine then I would keep it. I used to have a 1212 and I sold it for a Presonus Firepod. The 1212M sounded much better than the Firepod. I think you would have to spend over $1,000 to get better conversion.

The Lynx stuff is pretty much mastering grade so if you want to not have to worry about your conversion then that is probably what you want.