Presonus Rig or Pro Tools rig????

[bwritemusic]

Hey I'm new here. Recently my 002r went out!!! I was in the middle of finishing a live recording record (doing overdubs)!!! I need a new system now. I was thinking about going with a presonus rig and logic vs. Pro Tools. I want to get the most for my money? (I am a songwriter, artist, and I want to start doing mobile recordings/studio work to make my money back!
WHAT IS THE BEST PRO TOOLS/LOGIC RIG I CAN PUT TOGETHER FOR 3K W/12-16 INPUTS!

EQUIPMENT I HAVE:
macbook pro
Presonus Eureka Pre Amp
Rode NT1a, Groove Tube 55, Rode NTK tube, AT 2020, mics
dbx compressor,
roland 2480

[AudioFocus]

If you are doing any kind of studio work I would highly suggest staying with Pro Tools, especially with PT8 on the way (way cool features and all). Even though Logic is gaining a foothold in professional production spaces, PT is still the standard and staying in that realm will surely make your life a bit easier.

[Nathan Wall]

Buy a M-Audio Profire2626 and a Presonus Digimax. With that you can use Protools M-Powered and Logic, and have 16 mic pre's for less than the price of a new 003 with about the same quality.

[bwritemusic]

Originally Posted by Nathan Wall

Buy a M-Audio Profire2626 and a Presonus Digimax. With that you can use Protools M-Powered and Logic, and have 16 mic pre's for less than the price of a new 003 with about the same quality.

Really??? Thanks for the reply!! I had a sales engineer tell me to stay away from the M-powered stuff???? You say about the same quality!!! What quality would I be loosing and how could I make that up????

[AudioFocus]

Originally Posted by Nathan Wall

Buy a M-Audio Profire2626 and a Presonus Digimax. With that you can use Protools M-Powered and Logic, and have 16 mic pre's for less than the price of a new 003 with about the same quality.

I really have to disagree with Nathan here. I set up, troubleshoot, and install home studio and writer's studio setups for a living and I have used and heard the digi and the maudio stuff, and I just have to disagree. Here's why.

1.
The Digidesign converters are a step above the m-audio converters. The same goes for the analog stages. This is the main reason for the price gap in the units. Cheaper components = cheaper consumer street price. I have heard many m-audio units and Digi units, and while the Digi converters are no belle of the ball, the m-audio converters are even worse.

2.
Pro Tools 8. Digidesign have announced that Pro Tools 8 (M Powered) will be even more crippled than it's version 7 and 6 counterparts when compared to the everyday LE version. For example, you won't be able to take advantage of the new complete production toolkit that includes tons of plugins, expanded track counts above 48kHz, and more.

3.
Dongle. Who needs another one. Not to mention that you have to shell out more money for the m-powered software as it is not included with the interface, and if you buy a digidesign interface anytime between now and the release of PT8 they rock you the free upgrade.

4.
Black Lion Audio. I use a BLA modified 002R and I can honestly say that it is on par with at least the sound of an RME unit if not an Apogee. BLA does not modify m-audio gear.

5.
You can use logic with any qualified interface that will work with core audio. That includes all of Digidesign's equipment, from the Mbox Micro to a full blown HD rig.
Just my $.02

[kooz]

Your oo2 "went out"?
Could it possibly be the dreaded power harness issue? digi will send you one for free if it's their stuff that died. check into it before spending any money...

[58lespaul]

I thought the ProFire 26x26 had better AD/DA converters than the Digi 003... isn't this documented somewhere?

Personally, if I could start over I would go with the Cubase/Logic + MR816CSX combo. You get DSP power, good preamps and (according to the reviews and some people here at GS) converters that are as good if not better than the Apogee Ensemble for significantly less... I use Cubase, so the intergration is also a nice plus.

[Hard2Hear]

You're in the middle of a project doing overdubs? Sounds like a bad time to be platform jumping to me. And I'm no PT fanboi.

[bwritemusic]

Originally Posted by kooz

Your oo2 "went out"?
Could it possibly be the dreaded power harness issue? digi will send you one for free if it's their stuff that died. check into it before spending any money...

After troubleshooting with the digi guys for a couple of days, they gave me a price of $410 for repair. Can't remember but I don't think that included shipping????

[bwritemusic]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

You're in the middle of a project doing overdubs? Sounds like a bad time to be platform jumping to me. And I'm no PT fanboi.

Very Very true!!! The only thing is I am thinking for the future projects also. I have many projects planned for next year outside of the current one.

[bwritemusic]

Originally Posted by AudioFocus

I really have to disagree with Nathan here. I set up, troubleshoot, and install home studio and writer's studio setups for a living and I have used and heard the digi and the maudio stuff, and I just have to disagree. Here's why.

1.
The Digidesign converters are a step above the m-audio converters. The same goes for the analog stages. This is the main reason for the price gap in the units. Cheaper components = cheaper consumer street price. I have heard many m-audio units and Digi units, and while the Digi converters are no belle of the ball, the m-audio converters are even worse.

2.
Pro Tools 8. Digidesign have announced that Pro Tools 8 (M Powered) will be even more crippled than it's version 7 and 6 counterparts when compared to the everyday LE version. For example, you won't be able to take advantage of the new complete production toolkit that includes tons of plugins, expanded track counts above 48kHz, and more.

3.
Dongle. Who needs another one. Not to mention that you have to shell out more money for the m-powered software as it is not included with the interface, and if you buy a digidesign interface anytime between now and the release of PT8 they rock you the free upgrade.

4.
Black Lion Audio. I use a BLA modified 002R and I can honestly say that it is on par with at least the sound of an RME unit if not an Apogee. BLA does not modify m-audio gear.

5.
You can use logic with any qualified interface that will work with core audio. That includes all of Digidesign's equipment, from the Mbox Micro to a full blown HD rig.
Just my $.02

Very informative reply! I appreciate that. Kind of what I was thinking, "can get the best of both worlds w/PT Hardware and still have Logic. However that would leave me w/only 8pres and $2g's of my budget gone. Whereas for around the same price I get 24 pre amps to work with for my life recording stuff, w/arguably the same quality as digidesign, just without pro tools. I guess the biggest question is CAN I LIVE/SURVIVE IN THIS INDUSTRY WITHOUT PRO TOOLS.

[MR4791]

Originally Posted by bwritemusic

CAN I LIVE/SURVIVE IN THIS INDUSTRY WITHOUT PRO TOOLS.

Yep

Logic Pro Help :: Celebrity, Famous V.I.P. Logic Pro Users

[cbc459]

Pro Tools.

You can live and thrive without it, but if you're used to it already, you simply can't go back, IMHO. As long as you stay clear of those MBoxes you're good.

[videoracer]

Pro Tools is crippleware. Go with Logic. You'll get your money's worth. I'm no fan of Logic, but certainly less one of PT. Avid is in the business of nickel and diming for any form of functionality in their audio and video lines.

[GENX]

I might be a little too late with this post but just to add some clear commentary to the below statements/misconceptions


stated earlier:

1.
The Digidesign converters are a step above the m-audio converters. The same goes for the analog stages. This is the main reason for the price gap in the units. Cheaper components = cheaper consumer street price. I have heard many m-audio units and Digi units, and while the Digi converters are no belle of the ball, the m-audio converters are even worse.

---First of all I doubt one could even detect the difference without hearing an a/b one after the other. But the same converters RME 800 uses are in the 2626. If you are a recording solo artist then you can connect something like an apogee a/d if he wants the extra 10% of quality. The difference between digidesign and m-audio interface a/d will be negligible now. If you are going for multi platinum record hits you don't need to be using either of the converters here. If you are trying to get good sound either the focus rites in the 003 are righteous or the maudio.---

2.
Pro Tools 8. Digidesign have announced that Pro Tools 8 (M Powered) will be even more crippled than it's version 7 and 6 counterparts when compared to the everyday LE version. For example, you won't be able to take advantage of the new complete production toolkit that includes tons of plugins, expanded track counts above 48kHz, and more.

---Half this statement is correct, the first half only. While I was not aware of the dis-equalization of the 2 products in pt8. Prior to this post I got this Right off the literature:---

Music Production Toolkit 2
(Pro Tools LE and M-Powered Only)
Pro Tools LE and M-Powered with Music Production
Toolkit 2 support up to 64 tracks (128
available voices), mono or stereo, at 48 kHz and
up to 48 tracks (96 available voices), mono or
stereo, at 96 kHz

---Apparently M powered isn't available with the dv toolkit or 7.1 mixing. But if you don't score film, not a problem. But you can still get the equivalent of plug ins and tracks from what I read. Unless I missed something.---


3.
Dongle. Who needs another one. Not to mention that you have to shell out more money for the m-powered software as it is not included with the interface, and if you buy a digidesign interface anytime between now and the release of PT8 they rock you the free upgrade.

---Not true. Any purchase since Oct 3, 2008 qualifies for a free upgrade to PT8.
While I don't necessarily like the bulkiness of the dongle. Here are some food for thought: Without it you don't get into Protools. So for the inconveniece of a dongle I can use a pro studio recording and later take back to mix and overdub in at my leisure. I could still use a 2626 to record into any software sequencer I want. With out it I can never get into PT. The 2626 can be used as a stand alone 8 channel mic pre which are said to be "pretty d**n accurate". So for the price of some reasonable mic pres you can record into protools or anything else. And the price is staggering. I saw one gentleman bragging that he purchased the 2626 on ebay and got a m-powered thrown in with it all for $700. Try get 8 mic pres 26 i/0 and protools for that price anywhere. I don't think you can do it.---
4.
Black Lion Audio. I use a BLA modified 002R and I can honestly say that it is on par with at least the sound of an RME unit if not an Apogee. BLA does not modify m-audio gear.

---Again taken from an earlier post here on gear slutz the M-Audio Profire 2626 has the same converters as RME. However, if you are that concerned with conversion purchase a dedicated converter instead of paying for a modification and you can get more tools along with it such as sample rate conversion, aptomizer, advanced coda and dithering operations found in the rosetta 200 for recording truly professional music.---

5.
You can use logic with any qualified interface that will work with core audio. That includes all of Digidesign's equipment, from the Mbox Micro to a full blown HD rig.

---You can use M-audio interface with any sequencer, including protools.--

Just my $.02[/quote]

---While I don't have anything against PT I sure don't have anything against any other software either. But mainly I am just wanting to keep my options open and not get quarantined by marketing tactics. I just see a way to get good sound from any sequencer with a comfortable ration of $/quality here and it happens to be the choice I took personally.---
stikestike

[Heartfelt]

I don't know what DAW would suite you but if you are looking elsewhere for converter/pre options, here are two great options.



Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2
This is 16 pres and 16+ channels of conversion
PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2 | Sweetwater.com

PreSonus

The conversion specs are killer and the pres fairly nice... should be way better than an 003. *** 118db DR on the converters.


Yamaha N-12
This is 8 pres and 10/12 channels of conversion. The pres are the latest Yamaha highend pres and the conversion is said to be very sweet. There is a 65 page thread here touting the board/interface.

Yamaha n12 | Sweetwater.com



Both should sufficiently smoke a 003. Both have DSP for tracking.

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

I don't know what DAW would suite you but if you are looking elsewhere for converter/pre options, here are two great options.



Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2
This is 16 pres and 16+ channels of conversion
PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2 | Sweetwater.com

PreSonus

The conversion specs are killer and the pres fairly nice... should be way better than an 003. *** 118db DR on the converters.


Yamaha N-12
This is 8 pres and 10/12 channels of conversion. The pres are the latest Yamaha highend pres and the conversion is said to be very sweet. There is a 65 page thread here touting the board/interface.

Yamaha n12 | Sweetwater.com



Both should sufficiently smoke a 003. Both have DSP for tracking.

Can't agree more!!

For 16 preamp channels for under 3K, you can get either the Presonus Studio Live or 2 Yamaha N12s n chain them together... From reading around I'd make a blind guess that the pres and converters on the Yamaha maybe a bit superior to those on the Presonus... But there haven't been any real user reviews on the Presonus yet (i think)... But these products offer the best quality/features/price performances in their ranges

Even better IMHO for exactly 3K you can get a Allen & Heath ZED-R16 Allen & Heath ZED-R16 | Sweetwater.com


In case you don't like the "Mixer" approach, the new Steinberg firewire interfaces are propably offering the best quality/price performance right now. you can chain 2 of'em together or buy one and add a Mackie Onyx 800R for a different flavor!

[bwritemusic]

Originally Posted by obscure object

Can't agree more!!

For 16 preamp channels for under 3K, you can get either the Presonus Studio Live or 2 Yamaha N12s n chain them together... From reading around I'd make a blind guess that the pres and converters on the Yamaha maybe a bit superior to those on the Presonus... But there haven't been any real user reviews on the Presonus yet (i think)... But these products offer the best quality/features/price performances in their ranges

Even better IMHO for exactly 3K you can get a Allen & Heath ZED-R16 Allen & Heath ZED-R16 | Sweetwater.com


In case you don't like the "Mixer" approach, the new Steinberg firewire interfaces are propably offering the best quality/price performance right now. you can chain 2 of'em together or buy one and add a Mackie Onyx 800R for a different flavor!

Wouldn't I still need an interface to get into the computer or do these mixers have firewire capability!!!!

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by bwritemusic

Wouldn't I still need an interface to get into the computer or do these mixers have firewire capability!!!!

All the mentioned mixers have firewire capability... they act as mixers and multi-channel audio interfaces. They are different in their approaches however. The Allen & Heath is an analogue mixer. The Presonus is a digital mixer. The Yamaha is a digital mixer designed with more of an analogue approach in mind. All of them also provide the capability of doing mixes on them rather than in your DAW by means of multi-channel feed from your computer. There are some basic differences between them. You may need to search them a bit more, there's enough literarture on them online. They may not offer all of the features found on fully dedicated firewire audio interfaces like, say, an RME Fireface (for example: word clock, multiple analogue outputs, blabla I dunno what else), and they may not offer fully featured control surface capabilities to your Daw software compared to, say, a Mackie CUP.

[benpasley]

Hey, BwriteMusic, I appreciate your delimma. I see from you equipment list you are looking for affordable, but pro sounding gear. Me, too. I have similar gear, the MacBook Pro being the centerpiece. I made a decision once Firewire interfaces were introduced in the early 2000's that I would never sell my house so I could by a ProTools rig. Ha. Seriously, by the time you get to the great sounding hi-res rigs you have bought an island in the Caribbean. Here is what I am using now:
1. MacBookPro 2.33 with 2G ram, and Logic 8. I use Logic plugs, PSPAudioware plugs, and Altiverb. I sold off my Waves Platinum this year in favor of PSP, also a budget meets quality decision.
2. I started with the Motu interface years ago, moved to Fireface 800 in 2007. I recorded three nationally released albums on the Fireface 800 (Worship Circle Main) and was very pleased with the stability and sound. However, I auditioned the Presonus Firestudio line in 2007 as well and thought the preamps and AD/DA sounded better, but it would not sync well with Mac so I couldn't go that way. The latest two interfaces from Presonus, however, the Firestudio Tube and the Firestudio Project, have a new chipset in them which has proven to be super stable with my Mac/Logic set up and they are daisy chainable via Firewire for great expandability at low cost. I tested them for a month, and I just sold my Fireface for the much better sounding and much cheaper Firestudio Tube.
3. People who worry about compatibility with Protools rigs are the people who, I guess, should need to afford to buy it. The rest of us who have occasional needs to interface with big studios can easily export our projects as OMF, or bounce tracks, or whatever we need to do if we have more time than money.
4. A few more techie notes. I A/B'd the Presonus and Fireface units side by side on the same Firewire chain (I had a short bursts of time alignment), and a transformer balanced splitter on a microphone. I also dumped audio from an iPod for program listens. Both units sounded great. The Fireface sounded a little rounded up in the middle with soft highs and lows, while the Presonus had a more extened low end and a more open high end, but no bump in the middle. I chose the Presonus because the clarity and open-ness is a good choice if other preamps are available for tone and color. Finally, the headroom/gain on the Presonus is ridiculous. You can pre ribbon mics with the pre's on the unit, crazy.

Good luck

[cgiugliano27]

If I get the profire 2626 and a mackie onyx 800r...connect them via lightpipe...If I am using Pro tools m-powered software...will I be able to get 16 tracks at 24 bit/96khz(HD) simultaneosly...and if no what software can I do this with?

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by cgiugliano27

If I get the profire 2626 and a mackie onyx 800r...connect them via lightpipe...If I am using Pro tools m-powered software...will I be able to get 16 tracks at 24 bit/96khz(HD) simultaneosly...and if no what software can I do this with?

I believe m-powered allows for up to 18 simultaneous inputs ... so I think you're good to go ... assuming lightpipe allows for 8 channels at 96 Khz .. check for that! I think it does ... but I record at 44.1/48 so I never checked.

why is 24 bit/96 Khz "HD" ?!!! .... there's no such thing

for more simultaneous inputs you're gonna need another DAW such as Sonar, Cubase, Logic, or Digital Performer.

[cgiugliano27]

yeah...I just consider anything at or more than 24/96 to be high definition audio. Thanx for the info man...I appreciate it!

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by bwritemusic

Very informative reply! I appreciate that. Kind of what I was thinking, "can get the best of both worlds w/PT Hardware and still have Logic. However that would leave me w/only 8pres and $2g's of my budget gone. Whereas for around the same price I get 24 pre amps to work with for my life recording stuff, w/arguably the same quality as digidesign, just without pro tools. I guess the biggest question is CAN I LIVE/SURVIVE IN THIS INDUSTRY WITHOUT PRO TOOLS.

Of course you can and here is another thought.

Presonus Firestudio Tube has the best specs of it's line and is better than many interfaces out there. In addition, you have a total of 16 inputs.

Reaper is an up and coming DAW. I switched from PTLE 6.4 and haven't looked back. I have no track count limits, my waves plugs transfered over to VST, the editing is much faster and I hear a better bounce in Reaper than in PTLE.

Put both together and you have lots of possibilities and power for $850 or less.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by bwritemusic

CAN I LIVE/SURVIVE IN THIS INDUSTRY WITHOUT PRO TOOLS.

If you're interchanging PT projects with others on a daily basis, of course PT would be your choice. However, if this interchange of projects is a hypothetical, I wouldn't worry about it. When I do work for others with the PT format, I either open a PT project with my $250 Mbox and export the audio to my daw, or we work with generic wave files.

If you're a songwriter, you'll get much more creativity out of Logic, so that's a consideration. Plus you won't have a limited track count or an 18 channel input limit for tracking. (Try transferring 24 channels from a Alesis HD24 into a 18 channel PTLE interface - it don't work too well.) It depends on whether you want your daw to serve your needs or the needs of others. Even then, there is a growing tide of Logic projects looking for a studio to work in.

I see the future of this business as being highly specialized. If you have something to offer creatively, as a writer, player, arranger or producer, your clients will come to you for your talent, not for the brand of daw you use.

[SubwayRocket]

I have been asking similar questions about this topic, I got alot
of good input from members, check it out, Here are the posts:

Studiolive, ZED R16 n12 01V96VCM dm3200 Onyx 1620 Which? - Gearslutz.com

Who can rate these ??? Opinions Please . . .

[Sugarnutz]

Originally Posted by cgiugliano27

If I get the profire 2626 and a mackie onyx 800r...connect them via lightpipe...If I am using Pro tools m-powered software...will I be able to get 16 tracks at 24 bit/96khz(HD) simultaneosly...and if no what software can I do this with?

The 2626 supports SMUX @ 88.2/96 KHz with two ADAT ports on the rear. If the Mackie does 8 out via SMUX, you're good to go. I know this can be achieved with two Profire 2626's = 16 analog I/O @ 88.2/96 KHz plus the SPDIF for a total of 18 into PT LE/M-Powered.

[RODROD]

Originally Posted by obscure object

I believe m-powered allows for up to 18 simultaneous inputs ... so I think you're good to go ... assuming lightpipe allows for 8 channels at 96 Khz .. check for that! I think it does ... but I record at 44.1/48 so I never checked.

why is 24 bit/96 Khz "HD" ?!!! .... there's no such thing

for more simultaneous inputs you're gonna need another DAW such as Sonar, Cubase, Logic, or Digital Performer.

M-powered offers 26 inputs. I have an m-audio 1814 with two digimax's hooked up. im getting 26 in and 22 out.

[D. Rumble]

Get a Mackie Onyx 1200F. 12 inputs with amazing pres. Maybe an additional 8-channel ADAT pre like a Presonus Digimax LT. That would be 20 inputs well within your budget, and sound SWEET!

d.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by bwritemusic

Really??? Thanks for the reply!! I had a sales engineer tell me to stay away from the M-powered stuff???? You say about the same quality!!! What quality would I be loosing and how could I make that up????

M-Audio = lots of trouble and headaches.