Bottom Snare mic - How important is it?

[PEImatrix]

Is it a must? I have to mic up a 6 piece kit (kick, snare, and 4 toms, and 2 overhead mics), and my Delta 1010 rack only has 8 analog inuts, and I'm not sure what to do.

I'd also like to put my NTK in front of the kit to pick up the power of the kit, but again, I'm short on inputs.

Would the bottom snare mic be more imortant than the NTK an "only fair" room?

I guess I could mix the top and bottom snare mic to one Delta channel, but then I'm stuck with what I record. Since I do everything ITB, I'd have to apply same EQ and comp to both mics.

[drbam]

Originally Posted by PEImatrix

Is it a must? I have to mic up a 6 piece kit (kick, snare, and 4 toms, and 2 overhead mics), and my Delta 1010 rack only has 8 analog inuts, and I'm not sure what to do.

I'd also like to put my NTK in front of the kit to pick up the power of the kit, but again, I'm short on inputs.

Would the bottom snare mic be more imortant than the NTK an "only fair" room?

I guess I could mix the top and bottom snare mic to one Delta channel, but then I'm stuck with what I record. Since I do everything ITB, I'd have to apply same EQ and comp to both mics.

I wouldn't worry about inputs. If 8 isn't enough then you should probably work on technique (including mic placement, kit placement, mic selection, etc). Moving a mic even one inch can yield dramatic changes in some circumstances. And of course, with a drum kit, tuning, head selection and most of all, the player's skill are paramount factors. If your room is "only fair" then you need to be realistic about what can expected, but a fair room can yield good results if one is skilled enough.

I know a lot of engineers who will record a bottom snare mic and end up never using it. I'm a drummer myself and I've been recording for 40+ years, and have recorded in world class studios in LA & Nashville. I can count on one hand how many times a bottom snare mic was even set up, much less used in the final mix. And as discussed here and virtually every other forum, great, classic drum sounds have been captured with 3 or 4 mics.

[bitman]

The only thing that is "important" is the results.

I thought for a while that what I was missing in my snare sound must have been the lack of a bottom snare mic.

I hated the sound coming off that channel and couldn't use it in any form, snuck under the top mic mix or otherwise.

Then I discovered snare shell micing.
Actually while moving the snare mic around (a '57) trying to get less thud and more crack, I found pointing at the shall produced the snare sound I was after. But though "That's not right, I've not seen that technique anywhere".

Then after reading about micing the shell I felt more legit in doing so and now it is my go-to snare micing technique. This is the wrong way to go about it but I live and learn that:

The only thing that is "important" is the results.

[nuemes]

I'd do the following if I had 8 tracks and 4 toms to deal with (unless your doing 80's metal):

2 overheads
2 snare (over and side)
2 kick (on inside, the other outside with a tunnel)
2 rooms (if the room is good)

Most of the drum recordings I've made have sounded best with 4 mics total. Make the player get the sounds, not the other way around (crappy drummers....eh, then so be it)

[memphisindie]

I always use an under snare mic, but, I have unlimited inputs.
When I don't, which happens, I would place a mic somewhere in front of tom1 in a right handed set up kit, aimed away from the tom, above slightly from the snare aimed down at the snare yet not at the hat, play with that position till it sounds right. If you only mic the shell you might get too much everything else in the channell but it also sounds very interesting and gets a lot of nice "ambience". If you aren't going for a gated superclean and tight close mic sound and you don't have the inputs, don't mic it that way, do some tests, make some sense in your positioning, and adjust. You can definitely get a great drum sound without close micing. Make sure the kit is tuned how you want it to sound in the end or it will sound like ass no matter what.

[Bob Olhsson]

I never really appreciated an under-snare mike until very recently.

Today we can record each drum mike on a separate track without the phase cancellation problems created by gap scatter in an analog machine. (In the old days there was a huge loss of "balls" whenever drum mikes were mixed off tape rather than mixed to tape.) When I have the entire mix of a song up, the bottom-snare mike can make a major improvement in the drum sound yet I would never have wanted the drum mix I hear if I listen just to the drums alone.

[Sptz]

Hm... I don't get it, although it's definitely not as present in the final mix as is the top snare I still use it a lot, and if I didn't have the bttm snare it would loose it's crackyness and power

[warhead]

The only time I don't use a bottom snare mic is in minimal mic'ing setups (which I enjoy more and more lately). Consider using a condenser mic as a single snare mic and see if that does it. Listen for bleed etc, but you should be able to back it off a little and capture the whole body of the drum better with one condenser.

War

[moon_unit]

I think it depends a lot more, actually, on the style / genre of music.


I wouldn't exactly consider an under-snare mic essential in, say, hardcore metal.


But rockabilly? For sure. Jazz - maybe. You get the idea.

[Hammer Mark]

Originally Posted by moon_unit

I think it depends a lot more, actually, on the style / genre of music.

+1

I don't think the snare bottom mic is essential -- especially if you're getting a lot of your drum sound from the OHs and the room mic(s). In the same situation, I'd probably have Kick, Snare, 2xOH, and one room mic. That leaves just 3 inputs for 4 toms, so maybe put one mic between the two highest toms and a dedicated mic for the other two.

[geizo94]

You can always "reamp" the snare bottom after the fact.

In post, place the snare upside down on top of your monitor cone with the snare track soloed and mic it up like you would if it was still a part of the whole kit. Doesn't sound EXACTLY like it does if it were mic'ed originally, but does the trick if you're missing the sizzle of the bottom head.

Best of luck!

[StereoAtLast]

Before I actually recorded it, I thought micing the bottom snare was a load of bologna. Then I tried it out and it made a huge difference, personally i just gate out everything but the initial attack of the snare wires and leave that in the mix, i'm not of big fan of the crackle and decay, but the extra bit of 'pop' to the snare. In theory for me, bottom snare is bullshit, but whenever I mute it in the mix, I always feel like the snare is lacking, then I put it back and everything sounds nice again :]

but without proper gating, you're going to get an assload of buzz from the kick, toms and anything else resonating around the snare, so unless that's what you're looking for, that can be extremely annoying, just for god sakes don't do something crazy like start taping the wires down so they dont vibrate as much, A LOT of my friends do this and it totally kills the tone of the drum.

So yeah, I say "yes to bottom snare"

If you're short on mics/inputs, you can go without, but if you've got the means then you should most certainly impliment some bottom snare in your mix

[memphisindie]

I stick a "shim" under the snare wires to lift them off the head and then they do not rattle sympathetically unless the drum is struck, they also don't take two weeks to decay. The drum has to be tuned well too.

[Bob Olhsson]

A lot depends on the drummer too plus it should go without saying that you need to always phase the bottom mike with the rest of the kit.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A lot depends on the drummer too plus it should go without saying that you need to always phase the bottom mike with the rest of the kit.

Do I have to say it?
You said it anyway.
SORRY SORRY SORRY, I couldn't resist!

[Jamzone]

I love the presence a good sounding snare with bottom mic can bring to the kit. Play with compression on that one!!thumbsup

[Rob C]

I've tried it a few times, but it never made it to the final mix. For what I'm charging per hour it doesn't make sense for me to try something that won't have a guaranteed result.

It's like the Sennheiser 441... I'm sure it's good on something, I just haven't found what that is and I can't be bothered to take it out of my mic locker to find it on client time.

[theartofshreddin]

i definitely prefer the sound of a snare with the bottom mic than without.

one thing to try if you track without snare bottom... when you mix, trigger a signal generator with your snare track like you would an oscillator with a kick, but use white noise instead. then throw a hpf on it... one of my audio teachers showed us that but ive never been able to get it to work to my liking. just something to think about...

[leaper]

Originally Posted by Rob C

It's like the Sennheiser 441... I'm sure it's good on something, I just haven't found what that is and I can't be bothered to take it out of my mic locker to find it on client time.

Ironically enough, the 441 can be a great snare bottom mic.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by leaper

Ironically enough, the 441 can be a great snare bottom mic.

Haha.. figures, eh?

I actually found a use for it the other day, to get the "will you smile again for me" kick drum sound (...and you will know us by the trail of dead), I used the 441 to mike up a drum key stuck in the kickdrum tom mount hole... rattles with each kick drum hit.

[stafs]

Under snare mic? I'm recording it allways, using it in final mix almost allways.

[Iggy Poop]

I always mic the bottom. Although you don't need that much of it blended in with the top mic. But yes it sounds better when it's there than not there.

[Tranny-Cap-Tube]

If you are definately going to be useing snare samples to help out your drum mix, then you might not need the bottom mic.

I always mic the bottom with a LDC and mix it 8-12 db below the top mic. A lot of the brightness of a snare comes from the bottom, especially if the top head is thick or coated.

1. kick
2. snare
3. snare bottom
4. tom 1 and 2
5. tom 3 if needed
6. OVH left
7. OVH right
8. room mic


The placemant of the overheads is crucial and so is the top snare mic.

If you dont have many inputs I'm guessing you dont have a great room so dont waste more than one channel on the room.

If the style is metal, than the toms are probably more important then the bottom snare mic.

If jazz, then you may want to have another ride or cymbal mic.

If funk or pop, I would use a hihat mic instead of the bottom snare mic.

You need more inputs!!!!!

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Rob C

I've tried it a few times, but it never made it to the final mix. For what I'm charging per hour it doesn't make sense for me to try something that won't have a guaranteed result.

It's like the Sennheiser 441... I'm sure it's good on something, I just haven't found what that is and I can't be bothered to take it out of my mic locker to find it on client time.

does that mean you charge a lot? or a little?..finding out things IS part of the process....a 5 minute experiment could yield great rewards or help you eliminate something all together...

[nickynicknick]

I would say in your circumstance, record a bottom snare...it can really help and is one of those tracks that you can beat the shit out of (with eq, filters, gates,compression) to get what you need...your top snare track can't be manhandled that much usually because of bleed....remember the snare drum, in contemporary music, is a top three element in your mix...you don't need to mic every tom. you can do an openish approach to those with two mics (also, do you really need four toms?)...I would do this....

kik In...find a good spot
Snare Top
Snare Bottom
2 Tom mics
1 Room mic positioned at least 12 ft away( farther if you can get it)

Good Luck

Nick

[memphisindie]

If you don't like the bottom snare sound, use a better mic. I used an oktava 012 on bottom snare and it was passable, maybe a little better than passable, 4 x -6 pads on it, but, then I modded the mic and it's way better. That and shimming the snares off the head so they only rattle when you hit it with a stick really made a diff, I always use a bottom snare.

[jude]

Originally Posted by geizo94

You can always "reamp" the snare bottom after the fact.

In post, place the snare upside down on top of your monitor cone with the snare track soloed and mic it up like you would if it was still a part of the whole kit. Doesn't sound EXACTLY like it does if it were mic'ed originally, but does the trick if you're missing the sizzle of the bottom head.

Best of luck!

damn thats a cool idea! ive never heard of doing that before but damn im going to try it

[adamcal]

Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and want it,

But if your limited on inputs, mix the 2 mics to taste and move on, you only need a little bit and use a great mic, I always have a km85/84 or c414 under the snare.

one day when you have a spare hour, setup a snare, with one hand play constant 8th notes, and in the other hand hold a mic and move it around slowly, try pointing at the wires, away from the wires, in the middle, the edge, close, far, and say out loud where you are. then go and listen on speakers. (after giving your ears a rest) you will soon learn and get an appreciation for what is good and what isn't under the snare.

of course what you learn only applies to THAT snare drum, THAT mic in THAT room, however its a start and will contribute to your under snare mic skills.

[doorknocker]

I guess I have a slightly different take on this: If I use a bottom snare mic then it's always for musical reasons and never as a 'safety measure'. There are certain drum grooves that depend a lot on ghost notes and/or resonance of the actual snares and often I find that a bottom snare mic gives me more control over this. With say a New Orleans-ish drumpart the top snare mic would picks up the backbeat from the drumstick while the bottom mic enhances the resonance. I might also Sans-Amp that resonance à la Tchad Blake.

Using a bottom mic 'because you never know' just means one more thing to worry about in the mix so I think it's better to make decisions early and move on.

[PEImatrix]

Thanks for all the replys.

Turns out my new drummer has an M-audio stereo interface, so that should solve my problems. I'll now have 10 inputs to work with.

Here's the plan

2 overheads
snare bottom and top
kick
4 tom mics
a tube mic out in front of the kit that I'll hit hard with a comp

The music is hard to describe. The drums and bass sound kinda like Rage/Chilli Peppers, the vocals are almost a cross between rock and soul... Delbert McClinton'ish (but with stacked harmonies ala Sloan), and the guitars are really all over the place ie. Rage, Peppers, Eric Johnson, Stevie.