Bottom Snare mic - How important is it?

[CrankyRayHanky]

Originally Posted by adamcal

Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and want it,

I never used one for years, because the people I worked with did not...then I set up a simple 57 and gave just a hint of it in the mix- I don't think I'll skip it anymore, I like the added dimension

[memphisindie]

Well, If you're recording something that needs ghost notes (which I hardly do anymore, sadly) then you'll need one and don't shim the snares off the head.
You need to do what's appropriate for the song, the group, the collection of recordings that may end up as a piece of work or CD.

When I set mine up I try to get the mics so that the polar pattern covers the head of the drum and not much else, I try to start at as on axis as I can, but, I don't get upset if it isn't possible. Get a "hardware phase reverse" and a submixer, I've recorded completely mixed drum kits to two tracks before, you could use a ribbon mic as an overhead, Beyer M500 and get the snares that way without an under snare mic, loads of options.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by PEImatrix

Thanks for all the replys.

Turns out my new drummer has an M-audio stereo interface, so that should solve my problems. I'll now have 10 inputs to work with.

Here's the plan

2 overheads
snare bottom and top
kick
4 tom mics
a tube mic out in front of the kit that I'll hit hard with a comp

The music is hard to describe. The drums and bass sound kinda like Rage/Chilli Peppers, the vocals are almost a cross between rock and soul... Delbert McClinton'ish (but with stacked harmonies ala Sloan), and the guitars are really all over the place ie. Rage, Peppers, Eric Johnson, Stevie.

With two extra inputs, I would suggest you use them as an XY overhead pair and still use two mics on the toms....and probably don't compress the room mic on the way in...unless you are using a real character (commpressor ) piece that you can't get ITB....my two cents.

Nick

[Janesaid2me]

I honestly mix in more of my bottoms snare mic then my top snare mic...maybe im weird idk....i feel like the bottom give me all the crack and body....the top is the lil bit of flavor for me....lol...im prolly all backwards here.

[Sid Menon]

I know some mix engineers who will make a bottom snare track if one wasn't tracked. They set up a monitor pointing at the top head of the drum and mic the bottom head, then just run the track all the way through. If the top head is compressed or replaced it makes the bottom head snare tone super consistent. Just an idea. You could also do the same thing with the room mic, just play back the recorded drums into the same room and track a mic however far away to get that room vibe.

[TornadoTed]

I've done the re-amping snare thing a few times when I have had stuff to mix that I didn't track and they didn't use a snare mic.

If you gate the top snare and compress it a bit and send that to your speaker you get a very even and clean bottom snare sound that doesn't rattle with the kick and tom hits!

When I have done it I lie a bass cab on it's back and put the snare on top.

[lixisoft]

90 % of my drum sound is 3 mics, Kick and L/R Overheads, I bleed in snare/hat mic and rack mic, floor mic as needed. Bleed on drums is great in a good sounding room.

Drums are a KIT, not a selection of various single drums that are gated and compressed to perfection.

A good drum sound should come together in minutes on a mix, if not....move your mics.

[MichaelMackie]

It's nice to have the top and bottom mic if you're really interested in doing all the mixing and getting a really full snare. Try shell miking though. It doesn't get enough attention imo.

[ElevenShadows]

Originally Posted by bitman

The only thing that is "important" is the results.

I thought for a while that what I was missing in my snare sound must have been the lack of a bottom snare mic.

I hated the sound coming off that channel and couldn't use it in any form, snuck under the top mic mix or otherwise.

Then I discovered snare shell micing.
Actually while moving the snare mic around (a '57) trying to get less thud and more crack, I found pointing at the shall produced the snare sound I was after. But though "That's not right, I've not seen that technique anywhere".

Then after reading about micing the shell I felt more legit in doing so and now it is my go-to snare micing technique. This is the wrong way to go about it but I live and learn that:

The only thing that is "important" is the results.

I use an LDC in figure-8, micing the side of the snare, with the null at the rack tom and high-hat, about 4-5" away, and it works really great, giving a good, solid, balanced sound. Avoid the wind blasts coming out of the hole.

[fretman]

I've never been happy with the sound, in *my* recordings, of just a dynamic mic on top of the snare. If I have to mic just the top, I get better results with a condenser. Best results have come from micing top and bottom though, using more or less of one or the other according to taste. I recorded a song recently where I used ONLY the bottom mic!

Gotta try this "shell micing" deal now though, sounds interesting...!

[A LaMere]

Admittedly, I don't work on jazz or really in too many different genre's... so take that into consideration but I'll say: I've never found a use for the under the snare mic.

Honestly, Most of the sound of my drums comes from the overheads and in the proper room I get plenty of 'crack' out of the snare.

I think it probably just depends on how you work...
I could see using it in different, less live, rooms with quieter drummers maybe??

[bluesaxe]

I actually have some very recent experience with this exact topic. I was working on recording my band, and I just couldn't get the snare sound I was looking for with a 57 on the top of the snare. It just didn't have that crack that it needed. We were doing some jazzy stuff, and the drummer's Alien Freak snare just sounded to R&R.

I was out of real mic stands (low low low budget basement studio) so I took another 57 and put it on a desk stand on top of a small box and pointed it at the bottom snare head. What a difference! I agree that it may not be needed for metal or heavy pop type of stuff, but for jazz or blues or something with dynamics, I'd definitely give it a try.

Good luck!

[jslstrat]

As with anything its taste and style. But my brothers drums ( played together since kids) heavy rock and we started using a Shure BETA 57 on the under side (back in 1996) and it works great! In the mix it can really help bring a balance to the snare track and being on a seperate track you can bring in
or out as much as you need. But go try a Beta 57 it really is a great match for the under side.

[AndrewClaycomb]

I've been using a beta57a on top and an SM57 on the bottom. I'm going to have to try reversing the two now that you mention you're getting a good sound.

[RyanC]

You really need to consider what's under the snare, and the rest of the room in general. If you have carpet on the floor you pretty much need a bottom snare mic, as the sound of the snares get's muffled quite a bit by the carpet.

The more you get into a better and better live tracking space I find them to be less important; but still do use them anyway.

If I was low on tracks I would also try a clipboard or piece of plywood below the snare, and skip the mic down there. . . or maybe a sheet of plywood or two for the whole drumset; but now you will really need some diffusers above the drums unless you have ~14' ceilings or higher. . .

I don't like to track drums on carpet; just use some cinder blocks so they don't move. . . but that's really only relevant to my room, so it may or may not be good advice for you.

IMO good drums sounds are 60% the room, 20% mics and placement, and 20% everything else.

[Rednose]

well, you will most likely have to phase invert the bottom snare mic and perhaps the FOK mic.
Alot of people here swear by the bottom snare mic.
I find it can add something to the mix sometimes.
If you only have 8 channels I would pass