Choices for room mics

[Poopypants]

Yeah, I did a search... and found some opinions... and couldn't get my brain to cut through the clutter...

Here's my story...

Mostly, I'm a drummer. I have my recording rig in my unfinished basement. I rent, so there will be no renovations. Ceiling is a little low.

So, I just got a Mackie 800R which allows 8 more tracks into my Digi 002.

Mics I own now:

Rode NT5 pair
AT4047
AT3035
SM 81
Sm 57
2x 421's
RE 20
D12... ****ing broken... even after changing the guts...

Obviously, I have enough mics to record the kit and then some. For now, I'm mostly trying to add drums to various singer/songwriters' songs. I plan on trying to track rhythm sections soon as well, as adding drums AFTER the "talent" has performed his/her best "tempo rubato," often in spit of a click, gets old...

Sooooo,

What mics should I get now? I was thinking of microphones that would work well as room mics, but might also have some other applications as well. I already have the NT5's, but would a modded set of Octava 012's work well as room mics (or as overheads with the NT5's as room mics)? The 012's would also work well on acoustic guitar, but the SM 81 is actually really nice for that.

Should I go for the Fatheads? With fancy transformers or stock? Can I do mid/side with the Fatheads? Do I want to? Or is that just for broadcasting? What are the Fatheads going to offer me besides being used as OH's or room mics? Will they give me something that might be more useable on vox than the AT4047 or RE20?

Do you guys prefer LDC's for room mics? In other peoples' (real) studios, I've had LDCs used mostly as room mics, 414's or others... don't recall, but also some Earthworks in one particular studio.

Money IS an issue. I don't think I've bought a single item new and managed to find amazing deals on the stuff that I now have, and have no plans to change that particular tactic as I see no influx of cash coming into my life anytime soon or anytime at all...

What pattern is good for room mics? Omni?

My biggest fear for this thread is that someone will vouch for each of these options (and more) and no option will stand out as a clear choice, as seems to be the case with this audio recording business...


Thanks!

[NorseHorse]

CROWN SASS Mic

I love it as a room mic. Stereo to boot.

Of course, make sure you have a decent room first...

[Summa]

I'd go for akg 414's you can get them pretty cheap on evilbay- Will work on most acoustic sources like from acoustic guitar to kick drum depending on the the position, character and eq.

[Fieldstone]

For drums...Avenson Audio STO-2s omnis....beware though, they are very accurate, so if the kit doesn't sound good in the room....that's what you'll get.

[Fieldstone]

I've had very nice results with the Fatheads by the way. You can use them on brass, strings, and guitar amps. Try flipping them around on guitar amps also for different colors.

[lynyrd]

I like to use my Groove Tubes Am62 set to figure 8 out front of the kit about 8 feet away with the null towards the kit and smashed a little bit with a compressor as my room mic. Seems to get more room and less kit this way. A lot of bottom end bloom as well. Works for me.

[AndrewClaycomb]

It doesn't sound like your room is very ideal. Are you sure you would even use a room mic? I would try to borrow/rent a LDC and see if you even get something you would be able to use.

[StereoAtLast]

AT4051a's have kicked tons of ass for rooms (and most everything else I've used them on)

Oktava MC-012s also sound great for rooms

if you've got the budget (or budget to waste) Neumann TLM-103s are awesome for rooms, but you better love room mics because that's all they're good for

I'd say the 4051a's are your best bet

[Poopypants]

Wow! Thanks for all of the replies. As I feared, there are just too many choices/variables.

I see recommendations for SDC's, LDC's and ribbons. Can anyone explain the advantages of any of these over the others for room applications and for other uses as well? How important is it that room mics be matched? How important is it that I use two? Is a mono room useful within a multi mic set up with close mics and stereo OH's? So many questions; I don't even know the right questions to ask...

[pootkao]

At this point, matched isn't essential. Unless I'm buying expensive mics, I don't worry about it. As for other differences, most budget condensors will be bright. I've never used dynamics as room mics, so I can't comment on that one.

The Fatheads are a good option. I would avoid bright condensors in an untreated basement. (Been there, done that, never had good results.) The Kel HM-1 would work as well.

But if you're willing to spend just a little bit more, the Apex 205 mod by Michael Joly will raise the bar considerably.

[Matt Whritenour]

for drum room, 2 - MXL 2001's

[StereoAtLast]

Originally Posted by Poopypants

Wow! Thanks for all of the replies. As I feared, there are just too many choices/variables.

I see recommendations for SDC's, LDC's and ribbons. Can anyone explain the advantages of any of these over the others for room applications and for other uses as well? How important is it that room mics be matched? How important is it that I use two? Is a mono room useful within a multi mic set up with close mics and stereo OH's? So many questions; I don't even know the right questions to ask...

smaller diaphragm condensers are going to give you tighter highs (which are good in the case of rooms)

a mono room mic wont do you too much, because you're looking for something that will give your mix more depth and compliment your existing stereo image.

anyone saying you cant use rooms in a small space obviously has never tried it, because if you're willing to dick with mic placement a bit, you can make an iso booth drum kit sound massive just by throwing up some mics in the corners and compressing them

I think I should work for Audio Technica just because of how much I love their mics, but to be honest I havent been let down by any of their LDCs or SDCs ever, at least anything in the AT series.

I would say, find a dealer that will let you send your mics back if you dont like them, because most decent condensers will work great as rooms.

I still say 4050s or 4051a's are your best bet.
Ribbons on the other hand, I'm yet to have experienced, perhaps someone could enlighten me?

[Poopypants]

I don't why this would help, but I'm going to try to upload a rough mix of a track that I did somewhat recently. You can hear a bit of the room. I had the RE 20 on the kick, 57 on snare. 421's on toms, but I don't think I even hit them ... maybe once. I had the AT4047 as a mono OH and the SM 81 six or seven feet in front of the kit (against the wall) three to four feet off the ground, pointing at the kick and the AT 3035 out in the room ten feet away from the kit on the FT side. In this crappy rough, I used a plug in to compress the room mic. the kit is situated next to the washing machine, and opposite the dryer. It's facing the short distance of the room. The washer and dryer have packing blankets on them and there's foam stuffed into the ceiling above the kit and some foam behind the kit on the wall.

[Janesaid2me]

fatheads work great if you want to add some darkness to the room lol
mk012 works pretty nice has good clarity imho
sometimes i reach for a tube ldc like the rode ntk if im in the mood.

[strewnshank]

Point the null of the fathead towards the source....works with any fig-8, but i've found it to be particularly pleasant with the fathead, especially on drums and plexi-loud guitars.

[jguitar]

i say go with the fatheads. I just picked up a stereo pair and I really like them. They rock on guitar and i just did some drum tracking and used them as a room mic in a blumlein technique. sounded pretty damn good and my room kinda sucks. I just threw a limiter on them and put it low in the mix...sounded great. I also used a few other overhead techniques but still they are great mics that u can use on a bunch of different things.

if you want to spend more i suggest the akg 414 because they are a very versatile mic as well.

Soon I will try the fat heads as just over heads. next time perhaps.

[Poopypants]

Thanks again for all the replies. Here's another thought...

Is an omni mic better for room than cardioid or figure 8?

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by Poopypants

Thanks again for all the replies. Here's another thought...

Is an omni mic better for room than cardioid or figure 8?

It's a taste thing, really. I've found that it depends largely on the room you're tracking in. I usually start with figure-eight, as it's a nice balance between the direct kit sound and the room's reflections and either tighten it up by going cardioid or let in more room by going omni, based on what figure-eight sounds like.

Most of the time I just stick with figure-eight, though.

Oh, and consider this another vote for 414s, they're great all-around mics and deadly for rooms.

[desotoslo]

pardon the sidenote, but i just wanted to say poopypants is the best gearslutz handle ever. thumbsup

[Poopypants]

Well, what I was thinking, and what another "slut" whom I happen to know in real life suggested, is getting another 3035 and using those as room mics. It WOULD be in my budget. (414's might be nice, but I don't think I'll be able to afford that kind of stuff for some time...) Anyway, the 3035 is a fixed Cardioid. So cardioid is not a definite "No No" for room mics?

And "Poopypants," well that's a long story... Mostly just an acknowledgement that internet handles are stupid, so I just went right for the stupidest...

[desotoslo]

I once knew a three year old who's favorite saying was "Doodie Bomb!"

It was hilarious.

I know where you're comin from.

[cjogo]

We use a pair of the CS 1000 ->> they also work on 9V --- so we don't eat up phantom channels The drums (although they bleed quite well in the the AKGs ) have a U89 to capture their "room sound" .

[TornadoTed]

I use either a pair of modded Apex 460 tube mics or CAD M179's in the room and a mono PZM out in the hallway leading to the live room.

I know it is cliched but I really don't think that what you use for room mics is that important, it is definately where you place them.

I must have tried 20-30 different positions for room mics before I found a great position. I had always got useable results but was never totally happy. The spot I found is behind the drummer, about 6" from the wall, 6' up, 2'-3' either side of the kit in cardiod facing towards the wall, not an intuitive position but sounds awesome.

I'd go with the CAD's as they are cheap, multi-pattern, fairly neutral and useful in loads of situtaions, poor mans 414!

[redddog]

Love the song.

[Poopypants]

Originally Posted by TornadoTed

I know it is cliched but I really don't think that what you use for room mics is that important, it is definately where you place them.

Is that a cliche? I wasn't aware. Are room mics less critical for some reason? I know placement is important, but I figure the quality of your room mics would be more important than, say, your tom mics or even your snare mic if you were getting most of your snare sound through OH's and room..

[Poopypants]

Originally Posted by redddog

Love the song.

Thanks... but how's the drum engineering? (Everything else was imported from the guitar player's studio as mp3...)

[firby]

if you are in a crap room and you are not doing metal. Then please skip the LDCs at least. Maybe skip the SDCs as well. Crap rooms mean dynamic/ribbon mics. I record drums in a crap room with beyer dynamic m160s they are hypercardiod. They sound great. Think levee breaks type of sound although they can also be quite soft and pretty. For a room think of another ribbon and a compressor. You need to get someone else to play the drums while you move your ear around the room to find the best room sound.

Also don't overlook SM7, RE20, sennheiser MD421 for recording in a crappy room. I started with LDCs years ago and I have not plugged them in for years at this point.

If you must have condensor mics for drums the AKG 414s are great and you will get alot of use out of them everywhere. If I was doing it all over again, I might look at cascade fatheads.

From the track, if that is your normal playing I would lean on some ribbons for both overheads and room duty.

Regards.

[TornadoTed]

Originally Posted by Poopypants

Is that a cliche? I wasn't aware. Are room mics less critical for some reason? I know placement is important, but I figure the quality of your room mics would be more important than, say, your tom mics or even your snare mic if you were getting most of your snare sound through OH's and room..

Well it's a cliche in the sense that there are a million posts on here that basically say 'it's not what you got it's what you do with it'

I find the choice of mics less important because I tend to EQ and compress them quite radically compared to other parts of the drum kit. I do mainly rock and of course this wouldn't be the case if you were recording jazz, acoustic or any other style where realism was important. So I will take my statement back to a degree

[adrianex]

414's and U89 for me

[Poopypants]

Originally Posted by firby

if you are in a crap room and you are not doing metal. Then please skip the LDCs at least. Maybe skip the SDCs as well. Crap rooms mean dynamic/ribbon mics. I record drums in a crap room with beyer dynamic m160s they are hypercardiod. They sound great. Think levee breaks type of sound although they can also be quite soft and pretty. For a room think of another ribbon and a compressor. You need to get someone else to play the drums while you move your ear around the room to find the best room sound.

Also don't overlook SM7, RE20, sennheiser MD421 for recording in a crappy room. I started with LDCs years ago and I have not plugged them in for years at this point.

If you must have condensor mics for drums the AKG 414s are great and you will get alot of use out of them everywhere. If I was doing it all over again, I might look at cascade fatheads.

From the track, if that is your normal playing I would lean on some ribbons for both overheads and room duty.

Regards.

Hmmm...

I have some decent dynamic mics. I could try experimenting with them. Thanks for that. I won't be spending the money on 414's any time soon, at least not if I want to stay married...

What about my playing on that track makes you suggest ribbons? (My playing is context driven; that's how I play on a song like that... another context and I'll use a different kit and play altogether differently.)