Mixing Drums - Getting your kick punchy, snare cracking, and overall drum sound

[I <3 The Beatle]

I understand that the performance/instrument/room/mics/placement etc. etc. are very important.

After tracking is over.......

- how do you guys make your bass drums sound punchy (eq, multiband compression techniques, etc. etc.), snares to crack, and overall drum sound to work as one kit.

Here's a technique I'd like to try: "Another bass drum trick worth playing with, is to mix the sound of a bass drum with a short delay. And I mean REAL short here - we're not talking about 20-30ms here, no way... We're talking about getting down to the 5,4,3,2,1 millisecond range. What this does is to produce a comb-filter effect on the bass drum that filters out some of the low end, whilst re-inforcing the top end." - Audio Melody (no name listed)

[joelgtrnut]

Triggers. Some guys hate em, some love em. I always sample the drummer's set before I record it.

I like to run a trigger on the kick and snare (maybe toms) and blend it in with the actual track. Loads of EQ, compression, parallel compression... ect....

I try to get the dynamics out of the natural track and the consistency and power from the trigger. + you can warp triggers with eq better because their is no bleed.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by I <3 The Beatle

I understand that the performance/instrument/room/mics/placement etc. etc. are very important.

After tracking is over.......

- how do you guys make your bass drums sound punchy (eq, multiband compression techniques, etc. etc.), snares to crack, and overall drum sound to work as one kit.

Here's a technique I'd like to try: &quot;Another bass drum trick worth playing with, is to mix the sound of a bass drum with a short delay. And I mean REAL short here - we're not talking about 20-30ms here, no way... We're talking about getting down to the 5,4,3,2,1 millisecond range. What this does is to produce a comb-filter effect on the bass drum that filters out some of the low end, whilst re-inforcing the top end.&quot; - Audio Melody (no name listed)

If you like chorusing on the kick I suppose that might be nice. I don't, if you want some snap, use compressors or a transient designer. Slow attack on the compressor with a quick release will bring out the attack. Another trick is to buss the kick to a compressor set to taste and return the compressor to another fader. bring up to taste.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by I <3 The Beatle

- how do you guys make your bass drums sound punchy (eq, multiband compression techniques, etc. etc.), snares to crack, and overall drum sound to work as one kit.

I usually place an AKG 414/B-ULS in front of the kit. My room is rather small but with stone walls and a wood floor, there's a good amount of air being moved. I point the mic towards the floor and the height might be only 10 inches or so.
The FOK mic really drives the drum sound and 'unifies' the kit. I usually compress it like mad (a 1176 on all-in works best for me)
It's also cool to say raise the FOK channel a hair during the chorus of a typical rock/pop tune.
Time shifting the (close) kick track against the FOK and/or using a Little Labs IBP also can work wonders sometimes. Mostly I stay away from EQing the FOK mic, maybe a bit of LowPass filtering.


Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[Alexi]

i actually almost never use 'verb on drums.......am i doin something wrong?
do you use 'verb on the whole drummix?

[Musiclab]

only if the song calls for it

[s.d.finley]

Verb on toms can be cool....and the snare....blend all to taste. Normally i do not use verb on the overheads.

Using a multiband comp ITB can get a flabby kick more punch. Works on snare too...

rock

sdf

[Teacher]

Some sort of Transient Designer (waves, voxengo, SPL etc.) can work wonders on individual drum hits

[audioez]

maybe you could list your set up so we could play engineer...

http://www.ezraudio.com

[o---]

tweaking a weak drum session sounds like a tweaked drum session when you're done. You need a good drum tech to get those things that you seek. A couple turns of two bass lugs can make the kick sound entirely different. Same goes for toms and snares, although toms & snares are more reliant on the shells/lugs/edges for their sound.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by I <3 The Beatle

... And I mean REAL short here - we're not talking about 20-30ms here, no way... We're talking about getting down to the 5,4,3,2,1 millisecond range.

If you like comb filtering.

Just FYI, 20ms is right around 60hz. So, if you low pass the delay and add it back in, this can really beef up the kick drum, while adding very little level. (Thank MW for this one.)

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by djui5

bit of verbage..

how about some pronouns?

[Drumsound]

You should also think about all the other elements of the mix. Are the guitars speaking in the same frequency range as the attack of the BD? If so, notch out a bit of the frequency from the guitars so the BD attack comes through. Is the snare weak in the OH so that the snare tone is mostly attack from the close mic? If so try to boost a bit of the meat of the snare in the OH. Sometime a bit more of the room tone will help gel the whole drum-set, even if it sounds like too much before you bring in the other instruments. Aggression and sustain can be added from parallel compression. I other start with the whole drum-set in the parallel and take away things the are detracting. Often I'll remove the BD so the SD triggers the comp. You can also use parallel comps on individual elements of the drum-set. If it's really dense, guitar think mix I'll often end up with a BD parallel, a SD parallel and a drum buss parallel.

[maskedman72]

DRUMAGOG!!!!

[jbuntz]

Most of the drum sound is in tracking unless you are sample replacing. Tighter/more dry sounds punch more. Kick drums with lots of length are harder to fit in a mix. Try not to muffle too much though. It's make things sound dead, not uhhh punchy....whatever that means. There's a few companies making kick heads with a muffling ring built in. It will sound much better than using a pillow/blanket. Phase problems can also reduce impact. A solid hitting drummer sure helps too. Unfortunately there's not a plugin for that....oh wait...yeah there is. Drumagog.

[I <3 The Beatle]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Not much to play engineer with, mixing in the box with Powercore and Sonar plugs..

[I <3 The Beatle]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

DRUMAGOG!!!!

Haha..I'm waiting for the Drumagog that works with BFD to come out! Maybe I just won't try to get better and allow the computer to fix everything thumbsup

[bigalw1414]

Verb can help in a sparse mix when the drums sound too 'in your face,' but don't sound too loud. The reverb time is usually dependant on the tempo. For instance, when setting up a snare reverb, try to set it so that the reverb decays just in time for the next snare hit. If you set it too long, the whole mix will start to get muddy.

Also, when dialing in the 'snap' on kick and snare, make sure to listen to it in the context of the mix. I find that what I need to make it cut through the mix sounds much too bright and crisp when soloed.

The last thing, if you are using a DAW, don't use gates. Draw in the automation and just delete the parts where the toms aren't playing. Try this exercise. Setup a rough drum mix w/o any processing. Now, mute the tom mics. Sounds better , huh? thumbsup

[bigalw1414]

Oh yah! You don't HAVE to pan the kit hard left and right evrytime.

[Anaon]

I was wondering what do you think about gating kick and snare?

Actually, I try to make my kick sound really fat and my snare to sound punchy but it seems that I can't have both at the same time

[rockrev]

If you've already tracked and you're not happy with your room mics (or didn't use any . . . gasp!), a good convolution reverb can help. You may have to go through sample after sample, but when you find that impulse that works, it can do wonders for kick and snare. In fact, you might try busing the kick and snare with just a touch of OH to the impulse. I've had success with a blend of 1 clean (no verb) submix, 1 slammed (compressed) submix, and 1 convolution (100% wet) submix (kick, snare, and a touch of OH) tucked underneath.

Also, you can get great snap with the Massey CT4 on the kick and snare (slow attack, med/fast release).

My .02.

dj

[jval]

Most of this has been said, but a compressor with slow attack can really add punch to a snare. I'm usually compressing anywhere from 4-8dB on snares, a little less on kicks. CT4 does work great for this. bumping some 200hz on a snare can be good too.
I have a small room so i always have a room reverb on the drums. I gate the kick and snare, but not any more than 6dB.
Keep EQing the drums in the context of the mix - you may find yourself adding way more top end to a kick and snare than you would solo'd.
Try rolling off a lot of low end from the OHs, all the way up to 400hz. This can help the close mics poke through more.
Smash a drum submix and bring it up under the main drum bus.

...and once you've got that sounding great, lay in some good drum samples underneath for that modern rock sound.
lots of standard techniques!
it really just takes practice and experience, you'll get it.

[Anaon]

Oh yes, thanks! I tried all that during the last months, more or less but I'm still not satisfied even if it's quite good.

What do you apply on the drum bus track usually? I tried to find the right comp or EQ settings so that my drums always remain in front of what's happening musically...

About reverb, I just apply one light classic plate on the bus track...

[rockrev]

IMHO, a convolution reverb (sample/impulse based) is going to sound worlds better than a generated reverb - this I'm now learning after years. My method was always plate on snare, plate on snare. Now, I'm going for more of a natural sound - sometimes no verb at all, only room mic ambiance. At least *try* a convolution reverb. You'll hear what I mean.

The best ITB drum bus compressors I've found are the RenComp for a clean sound and Smack! for a dirty sound (my personal favorite). The CT4 and BF76 do OK as parallel compressors. McDSP AC2 can add that tape vibe (you can even slam it in the red if you want) and Massey's Tape Head can generate similar distortion, but not as much realistic vibe and control as AC2.

For me, I always have one clean submix. Sometimes all the compression, tape saturation, and reverb sound cool, but cloud up a mix faster than low mid boost! Having a clean submix can bring back the focus and clarity - the slam and verb mixes will do fine tucked ever so slightly under (most of the time).

dj

[Heartfelt]

James Meeker posted some great drum mixing tips a while back. They are in the tips section along with some other great info including how to track the sounds you WANT by Mike Tarsia


Meeker Link
Drums - Mixing tips by James Meeker

Tarsia link
Drums - Tracking the Drum Sound You Want..mike tarsia

[HeavyG]

Being a drummer...I am a bit partial (some would say a purist) to a more "natural" method of drum performance capture. I cringe when I hear about engineers inserting samples, millions of plug ins, manually displacing beats...I mean, this is the rhythmic equivalent of pitch correction. I love my engineering brothers in arms...but this in my mind is why music today sounds so damned NEUTERED. I think we can get so caught up with all the tools that we have...we forget that it is really about the artist and capturing a PERFORMANCE. Not your performance in front of a computer...but a drummer's performance. This is why I prefer the "Glyn Johns" method (or what Mike Tarsia refers to as the "Open and Natural" method). To me, this focuses on getting a "snap, crackle, and poppy" overall kit sound at the SOURCE rather than using manipulation.

Try getting away from the close micing method and getting more ambience and room tone in your kit sound palette. The best drum sounds in my mind are still captured this way...instead of created with a pc.

Cheers...

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

Being a drummer...I am a bit partial (some would say a purist) to a more "natural" method of drum performance capture. I cringe when I hear about engineers inserting samples, millions of plug ins, manually displacing beats...I mean, this is the rhythmic equivalent of pitch correction. I love my engineering brothers in arms...but this in my mind is why music today sounds so damned NEUTERED. I think we can get so caught up with all the tools that we have...we forget that it is really about the artist and capturing a PERFORMANCE. Not your performance in front of a computer...but a drummer's performance. This is why I prefer the "Glyn Johns" method (or what Mike Tarsia refers to as the "Open and Natural" method). To me, this focuses on getting a "snap, crackle, and poppy" overall kit sound at the SOURCE rather than using manipulation.

Try getting away from the close micing method and getting more ambience and room tone in your kit sound palette. The best drum sounds in my mind are still captured this way...instead of created with a pc.

Cheers...

i agree, i love naturalism,...but the rality is so much more drab.
noone wants to sound like the doors anymore, they all wanna sound like nickelback in terms of the mix.

the sessions i loved the most were the ones in which i manipulaed the 2-buss an let it ride,...awesome.
but i usually fidn myself slaving over beat detective and sound replacer for hours.

one good point however is, backing off your close mics just a little cna have a huge affect on the fatness of that sound.

[ScottyD]

I gate my kick and snare, but i try to set it long so it's well past the natural decay. I use Reaper's built in function for this. Say I zoom in and the snare hit was 175ms with all the tail, then I might put it at 225ms or 200ms. Sometimes gates screw with rolls, so I manually split the track at the beginning and the end of the roll and use no gating...

-ScottyD

[steveschizoid]

The best way to gate toms and kick are to sample them, make gog files and replace them. Then you can downward expand them to tailor the decay very precisely, and it still sounds very natural. You should only use a gate if the sound you want is the sound of the signal being chopped off abruptly. This strategy works with snare only if the drummer is playing very simply.

[rico52]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

Being a drummer...I am a bit partial (some would say a purist) to a more "natural" method of drum performance capture. I cringe when I hear about engineers inserting samples, millions of plug ins, manually displacing beats...I mean, this is the rhythmic equivalent of pitch correction. I love my engineering brothers in arms...but this in my mind is why music today sounds so damned NEUTERED. I think we can get so caught up with all the tools that we have...we forget that it is really about the artist and capturing a PERFORMANCE. Not your performance in front of a computer...but a drummer's performance. This is why I prefer the "Glyn Johns" method (or what Mike Tarsia refers to as the "Open and Natural" method). To me, this focuses on getting a "snap, crackle, and poppy" overall kit sound at the SOURCE rather than using manipulation.

Try getting away from the close micing method and getting more ambience and room tone in your kit sound palette. The best drum sounds in my mind are still captured this way...instead of created with a pc.

Cheers...

Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!