Big bass - AKG D12 vs AKG D112

[ahumphr]

Hi,

I'm not satisfied with the recordings of my Upright bass I've done so far using conventional mics. Recorded in a small room, the URB seems to overload conventional mics with boomy muddy signals at around 180-350Hz.

I'm considering getting one of these low end specialist mics to see if I can improve the results for this instrument.

AKG D12 vs AKG D112 Any opinions?
Which is better?
Any other good choices for an URB.

Any suggestions for temporarily damping booming rooms when recording King Kong's guitar?

Aiden

[gsharp]

A concert bassist hipped me to using a small diaphragm condensor. I'd always tried kick drum mics like you mentioned or LDC's. SDC's have given a much better recorded sound for me. Much more focused sound.

The D(1)12's have a hyped bottom. The instrument has a hyped bottom. Might be too much of a good thing.

g

[ahumphr]

A concert bassist hipped me to using a small diaphragm condensor. I'd always tried kick drum mics like you mentioned or LDC's. SDC's have given a much better recorded sound for me. Much more focused sound.

Interesting! Any tips about placement? I am always reading "6'' from the bridge", which to me sounds like Kaka. I've found some improvement with placing a SDM about 12" away level with the end of the fingerboard. But that leads to a lot of finger noise. I've also experimented with damping - closing up the f holes and covering the back in a blanket with inconsistent results.

[recorderman]

Originally Posted by ahumphr

Recorded in a small room

that is your biggest obstacle

[scoop2]

The best upright bass sound I've heard was with a U47 and a KM54 (or 84, can't remember)
The 54 was pointed at the bridge or maybe a little higher, maybe six inches away.
47 was lower, maybe 8 to 12 inches off the ground, about a foot to 1.5 feet out from the bass.
Sounded great, great combo of low end and attack.

[cgarges]

It seems like I've been recording a lot of upright bass lately. I've found a couple of techniques that work really well for me. The small-diaphragm suggestion is a good one. My favorite spot to capture the sound of the instrument is right behind the strings, right around where the neck ends. A small-diaphragm mic can sound really good in there, but is sometimes difficult to position, especially if the player moves or plays arco (with a bow). My favorites for this so far have been the AT 4051 and the Neumann KM84, although sometimes the 84 can be a bit noisy for quiet playing. Sometimes a second mic further down towards the bottom of the instrument can help fill it out (I really dig a FET47 for this), but sometimes is smaller rooms, it tends to muddy up the sound.

Recently a friend of mine hipped me to using an RCA BK-5A on upright. Man, here is a sound that I LOVE! You'll need a mic pre with lots of gain and good low-end representation at the top of the gain range. (I really like a Hardy with transformers.) My favorite spot is just below where the neck meets the body, aimed right at the strings, maybe 8"-12" away.

On one session I was doing for a Klezmer group, the combination of a good pizzicatta and arco sound was necessary, so I decided to experiment with taping an omni lavelier to the back of the fingerboard and hanging down about an inch below where the neck ends. This made for a really excellent sound and kept the mic in the same position if the player moved, while allowing for easy access to both bowing and plucking the strings. Plus, being an omni, the mic didn't exhibit any excess low-end buildup due to proximity effect. The down side is that there can be a good bit of bleed from other instruments in the same room.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by cgarges

My favorites for this so far have been the AT 4051 and the Neumann KM84, although sometimes the 84 can be a bit noisy for quiet playing. Sometimes a second mic further down towards the bottom of the instrument can help fill it out (I really dig a FET47 for this), but sometimes is smaller rooms, it tends to muddy up the sound.

I was also going to suggest the 4051. I have been getting great results on my electric bass amp with this microphone, and I've tried lots of LDC's and bass microphones as well.

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I was also going to suggest the 4051. I have been getting great results on my electric bass amp with this microphone, and I've tried lots of LDC's and bass microphones as well.

Yeah, I've used it on electric bass amps, too. It's really cool for that, as well.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Dave Martin]

For the last couple of years, I've been pretty much using ribbons on my (and other people's) upright bass; RCA 74B's 77B's 77DX's, and the AEA R84. Occasionally, I'll add a small diaphragm condenser closer to the neck - either a Neumann Gefell UM57, an AKG 480 or a KM 184. The bulk of the sound, though, comes from the Ribbon.

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience has been that the particular bass tends to make the biggest difference of all. I'd rent several likely candidates before committing to a purchase.

[Yutaka]

I don't know if it is in your price range, but DPA/B&K 4006 is great on upright bass, as well as on many other acoustic instruments.

[audioez]

I recently was pleased with an SM57 w/broadcast style windscreen, just pointed towards the sound hole on a small boom. Obviously it needed a good amount of eq. matched with the right type of microphone pre-amplifier, and BAM!!!

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http://www.ezraudio.com
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[El Caballo]

Originally Posted by ahumphr

Any suggestions for temporarily damping booming rooms when recording King Kong's guitar?

Chris' suggestion is good (omni lavalier behind fingerboard). You can also do that with an Earthworks omni, some rags or washcloths, and some gaffer tape. Or, try the same thing under the strings below the bridge.

[Amplove]

Here's an idea.

Ever been playing an acoustic guitar and while playing it, pressed the headstock firmly against a wall? The sound from the guitar transfers into the wall and all of a sudden you have the wall acting as sound conductor. I'm sure most of us have done this.
So why not mic up the bass in a normal way but in addition to that, place a...maybe half a sheet of plywood on the floor, set the bass on the plywood. Place a flat PZM mic on the plywood and blend to taste.

Might suck...or it might be bitchen.

2 cents.

j.

[ahumphr]

Originally Posted by Amplove

So why not mic up the bass in a normal way but in addition to that, place a...maybe half a sheet of plywood on the floor, set the bass on the plywood. Place a flat PZM mic on the plywood and blend to taste.
.

My treasured RadioShack/Tandy PZM died a few years back due to a bad battery leak. Are the new $39 RadioShack PZMs comparable in quality or is it worth the extra $$$ for a pro PZM?

[weedmaker]

I've recently got most beatiful upright jazz Bass sound by using combination of AKG C414 TLII in wide cardioid about 50cm away and 20 cm above bridge with lavalier attached to the bridge (I can't remember which lavalier, but it was omni and the bass player has been using it for his live sound).

The ratio was 75:25 in favour of AKG. The recording (overdub) took place in vocal booth so the acoustics wasn't flattering at all!

For getting rid off boom (125 - 300 Hz) try couple of gobos to deaden a local acoustics a bit. It's very easy to make one with a 10 - 20 mm MDF or chipboard with 10cm acoustic foam on both sides.

Cheers

[jpupo74]

Hey Thread,

Wich Mic´s do you own or wich mike´s can u rent? Consider also the importance of the recording chain u r using. Mic pre, Comp? Also, it´s gonna be a little difficult in a small room. Have u tried EV RE-20 with the low cut? Neumann FET 47 and the new M149 r favorites...

Regards,
José

[drum nut]

If your are able, it is a good idea to move your instrument around the room untill you get the low end growl you want - this is not so applicable with enormous spaces like concert halls etc. but if you are trying to record a bass/kick drum or similar, and the room modes are destructively intefering with one another in the low end, you wil surely end up with a thin weedy tone.

peace!

[JonCraig]

mics that have sounded great on upright for me:

schoeps cmc-5, w/ the wide cardiod capsule
coles 4038
r84
dpa 4006
u67

--jon

[nathanvacha]

Someone mentioned an omni earthworks wrapped in rags or something, which I think is similar to what I was going to say... I have never had the chance to try it, but a technique I've heard sworn by is an omni LDC (it was an 87 in this case) wrapped in something soft and absorbant, foam or bubble wrap or cloth of some kind, and wedged in between the strings and the body of the bass. Give it a shot, and I'd love to hear your results.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

i´ve been tracking Uprightbass a lot lately....I´m not sure if your problem is the mics your using. you refer to "boomy muddy signals at around 180-350Hz". A d112 is not going to help you.
I would start in room acoustics. Does the Bass sound muddy in the room too? I would also try to put some absorvent material behind it. Then try 2 things:
1- Different polar patterns. Omni will help you a lot if your room sounds OK. Even hypercardioide.
2- Different placement: Distance from source. You might be placing the mic to close. Get away from the F hole. Try a mic near the bridge pointing up to the neck. Also try the DI sound ( to blend).

Then try different mics. Small condensers, large condensers, dynamics and ribbons. They all can work with URB. I had good results with a AT 4047,and schoeps. If you want super bass freqs ( if you have space for them in your mix) then the d12/112 will help you.

Good luck.