Golden Age Project Pre73 - Page 9

buscemi · 13th February 2009

Thanks, Anthony. I've only pushed the GA ribbon I bought through you guys and a condenser through the pre. I can also try an RE-20 and SM57 to see if there's a problem. Just haven't had the need to use it in that fashion yet (if I ever would!).

API · 13th February 2009

Hi everyone,

Have been sick for a week and have not had time to do any work.
Will start again today and hopefully record some sound samples as well.

Will at least post some pics after the weekend.

Regards,
API

lerone · 13th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by retractablezing

does he have a website?

Yes he does, I'll dig it out for ya. I think i've got a number somewhere too....

kidvybes · 14th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTI

"zmix" had a good text about gain staging with these but I don´ t seem to find it
around the forums...
Well I don´t have one so what the heck

Matti

EDIT: "The "OutPut" (as screened) control on the TNC module is located in the same place in the signal path as the fader on a console. It is after the preamp / EQ stage and before the line amp.

On most consoles the fader is at unity when it is 6 to 10 dB lower than it's maximum level.

On the TNC preamps seting the "OutPut" control at 12:00 (50% of maximum rotation) represents a level only 6dB lower than maximum, but this is a good starting point when setting levels.

When setting levels, ensuring proper gainstaging requires that you set the faders to "0dB" or unity, and then use the mic / line input level control to set the gain for the channel. This allows for optimal headroom vs. S/N ratio.

The meter on the TNC 73 and 84 preamps is calibrated so that when it indicates "0vu" the preamp is producing a signal of -14dBfs, referenced to a "+4" line level. They respond slowly, so be aware that they will not register peaks accurately. They will audibly "peg" when peaks as low as -22dBfs are encountered however, so the "-20" meter range switch can be used if the noise is a problem...

To summarize: Start with the"OutPut" control at 50% and use the input "MIC LINE" gain select switch to set the level while monitoring the signal using the built in VU meter (TNC 73 and 84). "

These apply to other 797 pres like Chameleon or Golden Age, I claim

...here's another thread that discusses the proper use of the input and output controls on another Neve-clone, the Vintech X73...again, it is advised that the output gain level be set at full output (assuming your not overloading your converters) and adjust input gain accordingly...

Proper Use of a Pre-Amp

Matti · 14th February 2009

Aha

Matti

slowjett · 14th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by API

Hi everyone,

Have been sick for a week and have not had time to do any work.
Will start again today and hopefully record some sound samples as well.

Will at least post some pics after the weekend.

Regards,
API

API did you check the bias before OR after your output transformer/transistor upgrade?

bash · 14th February 2009

As a slight digression, why does the gain increase by turning it counterclockwise instead of the more standard and intuitive clockwise? The output increases clockwise, why is the input gain reversed? Is this a Neve thing and being Neve-inspired the makers of the Pre73 are just taking their cues from the original?

JMc · 14th February 2009

You know, cranking the out put to full, then adjusting the gain and tweaking back the output a little really seems to have solved my "issues" with this pre, though I still think the higher gain setting shouldn't introduce quite so much crap into the signal.

Right now, I've got the gain set at 12 o'clock (too lazy to get up to see what that is, specifically) and the output set to about 2 o'clock and I'm getting a really sweet tone out of it before it hits the rest of my audio chain.

I've pretty much decided to fore go any mods and leave well enough alone for now.

A lot of drama could have been avoided had the good folks at Golden Age simply printed up a one page manual to throw in the box (or even printed a parapgraph or two ON the box for chrissakes)... I've never used a Neve and the controls on this thing just seem counter-intuitive in terms of the direction you're supposed to crank the knobs. Maybe if I keep fooling with it, I'll discover it secretly doubles as an anti-gravity device as well...

Hotstuff · 14th February 2009

I hear you JMc,

I asked G.A.Music about this and they said that a manual in not included to keep costs down, and also said that the pre is easy to operate so it doesn´t really need a manual

Thanks to kidvybes for showing us how to properely adjust the gain on these typs of pre´s

Markus Stock · 14th February 2009

Guys, you are not really asking for a manual for a device with only two controls? Use your ears! On the package that the Pre came with it is noted that you can balance the colour of the pre with the input and output controls, so there's not really something you can do right or wrong. One mans wooliness might be another mans warmth. It all depends on the source and what sound you want.

Matti · 14th February 2009

Golden Age Music never did claim this pre to be other than it is.
It´s us speculating, if you have noticed?

Matti

Markus Stock · 14th February 2009

There isn't sooo much to speculate about a pretty classic design and two knobs is it? Anyway, I like the Pre and tested it with alot of sources and Mics by now. Next week I am tracking an album with it and see how it will stand the test of every day use and especially how it adds up being used on a couple of sources...

videoracer · 14th February 2009

Well, some of the little things you can (hopefully) get from a manual is if the design allows to connect unbalanced inputs into balance jacks. Some circuits are better at this than others. My Rane DMS22 is not fond of unbalanced inputs, but it's stated so in the manual.

How 'bout overall specs and (um) schematics? I got that all with my Rane, along with all sorts of good info on setups. All those here wouldn't like a schematic of their Pre-73 please raise their hands.

So yes, there are good uses for a manual for a box with two knobs...

JMc · 14th February 2009

I may just have to buy another one, now.

Number 6 · 14th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMc

I may just have to buy another one, now.

It is rather good. I'm still doing a lot of tracking with it and so far no probs - just a very sweet tone. Very sweet.

kidvybes · 14th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMc

Right now, I've got the gain set at 12 o'clock (too lazy to get up to see what that is, specifically) and the output set to about 2 o'clock and I'm getting a really sweet tone out of it before it hits the rest of my audio chain.

...I'm glad you're having better success by using this gain method (with a condenser mic I assume), but I'm still curious if you hook up a dynamic and crank the gain back up to the needed 55dB or more using this same technique, does the "wooliness" return?...

JMc · 14th February 2009

After reading kidvybes last comment, I thought it was about time to find out. And yes, I usually use condensers.

I pulled my trusty EV-RE20 out of its coffin and drove the gain to 65 before any noticeable "bad" distortion occurred. Up to that point, it was just a very sweet vibe, indeed. So nice in fact, that I may just keep that RE-20 out of its box for awhile.

Next, I connected my RCA 77D (see avatar) and was able to drive the gain even further before it got unruly. I have NEVER been able to properly drive the 77D before now, and I must say, it sounds amazing. I'm actually rethinking my decision to trade it away for something else, now.

So, to sum it all up, I have to admit that my initial complaints with the GAP Pre 73 were due to my own ingnorance in setting it up properly. That acknowledged, would it have really killed their profit margin to spend another penny on ink for the box that states something like: "start with the gain and output knobs turned fully clockwise. Adjust the gain counter-clockwise until you get a satisfactory level or just until some distortion becomes apparent. If you detect any undesired harmonic distortion, either reduce the gain by one -5db increment and/or turn the output knob counter clockwise to make any further fine tuning adjustments..." Really now. Would that have been so difficult? All I can say is that doing so would have avoided 90% of the negative discussion in this thread.

Oh, and I still prefer to use the GAP Pre 73 as the front end to the rest of my chain. I don't dig it so much as a stand-alone pre, but if you can toss a few toys into the chain after this thing, it really wakes up the flavor. This thing is like "Lawry's Seasoning Salt" for the steak. I absolutely love the flavor.

One last comment, the LED meter is fairly useless. Ignore it and just use your ears. Clipping begins long before the clip lamp starts flickering.

kidvybes · 14th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMc

So, to sum it all up, I have to admit that my initial complaints with the GAP Pre 73 were due to my own ingnorance in setting it up properly. That acknowledged, would it have really killed their profit margin to spend another penny on ink for the box that states something like: "start with the gain and output knobs turned fully clockwise. Adjust the gain counter-clockwise until you get a satisfactory level or just until some distortion becomes apparent. If you detect any undesired harmonic distortion, either reduce the gain by one -5db increment and/or turn the output knob counter clockwise to make any further fine tuning adjustments..." Really now. Would that have been so difficult? All I can say is that doing so would have avoided 90% of the negative discussion in this thread.

Oh, and I still prefer to use the GAP Pre 73 as the front end to the rest of my chain. I don't dig it so much as a stand-alone pre, but if you can toss a few toys into the chain after this thing, it really wakes up the flavor. This thing is like "Lawry's Seasoning Salt" for the steak. I absolutely love the flavor.

One last comment, the LED meter is fairly useless. Ignore it and just use your ears. Clipping begins long before the clip lamp starts flickering.

+1 ...I concur

buscemi · 14th February 2009

Dang, it seems I really do need to break out that RE20 as well. Would be a bonus if there were similar results here with one of my favorite mics! Thanks for running through the tests, guys.

kidvybes · 15th February 2009

...I have found that using the Pre73 as a frontend (like JMc) works well for getting some "mojo" on vocal tracks...here's a rough mix of a reggae vocal I recorded a few days ago using an SM7 into the Pre73 and then thru my Safe Sound P1, utilizing a slight bit of compression/limiting from the P1...gain settings were on the high side (output at max and input around 65dB) so as to provide some "mojo" texture to the tone...vocals were treated with just a slight hint of reverb...this is just a ruff-comped MP3 (lossy) mix, to provide a sample of the SM7 thru the Pre73 (I know a wav. file would sound better, but I'd have to edit down to just a very short clip)...

Matti · 15th February 2009

Good to hear it´s ok for the price, if it handles your RCA it should handle any other mic aswell. Try the impendance settings also -Sorry, you did ;-)

Matti

jaz49 · 15th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidvybes

...I have found that using the Pre73 as a frontend (like JMc) works well for getting some "mojo" on vocal tracks...

Don't know about the pre73, but the song is way cool!

Matti · 15th February 2009

Yes, me likes that song also!

Matti

kidvybes · 16th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTI

Yes, me likes that song also!

Matti

...thanks...he's a new reggae artist I'm tracking...calls himself "Teacha"...

JMc · 17th February 2009

Here's a few VO tests with the Electrovoice RE-20 and RCA 77D. Much cleaner examples than what I posted over the weekend. These were done in the booth.

In both files, the opening sample bypasses the GAP Pre 73 all together, and go straight into my main pre for reference. Following the first tone burst all remaining samples are using the GAP Pre 73 as the front end beginning with 60 db of gain. All tests with the RE-20 were at 60db of gain with output cranked full on.

The RCA started at 60dB of gain and went up to 70, again, with the output at WOT. Anything past 70db of gain starts getting really ridiculous. The Pre 73 should be able to drive any mic out there, and have room to spare. thumbsup

kidvybes · 17th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMc

Here's a few VO tests with the Electrovoice RE-20 and RCA 77D. Much cleaner examples than what I posted over the weekend. These were done in the booth.

...there's something about the way you say, "the evil (short pause) began in the monkey house..." that makes me wonder...just what do you know that we don't know?...

(good stuff!)

JMc · 17th February 2009

When my now nearly 21-year-old daughter was about three years old and strapped into her car seat in the back of the minivan or whatever it was, she blurted that line out one night while we were driving somewhere.

"The evil began in the monkey house."

My wife and I looked at each other in disbelief.

A moment later, Katie added "...the meat hung from the trees like coconuts."

My wife and I looked at each other again like "WTF?" and then we started laughing. We joked that our little toddler was destined to grow up and give Stephen King a run for his money.

But the lines stuck in my head and I like to use that one in particular as a test phrase when messing with microphone settings. It's been deeply ingrained in my psyche for almost two decades, now. I've said it so many times that I've actually come to believe it.

kidvybes · 17th February 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMc

When my now nearly 21-year-old daughter was about three years old and strapped into her car seat in the back of the minivan or whatever it was, she blurted that line out one night while we were driving somewhere.

"The evil began in the monkey house."

My wife and I looked at each other in disbelief.

A moment later, Katie added "...the meat hung from the trees like coconuts."

My wife and I looked at each other again like "WTF?" and then we started laughing. We joked that our little toddler was destined to grow up and give Stephen King a run for his money.

But the lines stuck in my head and I like to use that one in particular as a test phrase when messing with microphone settings. It's been deeply ingrained in my psyche for almost two decades, now. I've said it so many times that I've actually come to believe it.

...wow, man...even better story than I expected...great stuff

Melodeath · 17th February 2009

Haha, it's such a funny line, and I love the way you say it.

Forgive my ignorance, but do you do radio? You have a very radio-esque voice (and I thought this before I heard the line with the radio station letters)

The GAP Pre73 sounds amazing on your voice, IMHO. Though, I don't know how much of that "mojo" is actually just your voice being louder when the GAP is in the chain.

I'm pretty seriously considering getting the Pre73, but I don't have an A/D to run it into (unless I give up one of my interface pres).

synthetik42 · 20th February 2009

I just ordered one of this and was wondering if anyone had tried upgrading with Carnhill transformers yet?

Someone had mentioned that the VTB9045 should work for the mic in and the VTB1148 for the output. I'm assuming that the line and DI in also share an input transformer, and can be swapped for a VTB9046? (I'm looking at the transformers on this page: Audio Maintenance Limited Transformers and Inductors )

I'll probably wait a bit to try this out, but sounds like it could be worth it for under $200. While I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron, I'm also pretty ignorant about circuit design, so any advice would be great....

13th February 2009	#242
API Lives for gear Joined: Nov 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 783	Hi everyone, Have been sick for a week and have not had time to do any work. Will start again today and hopefully record some sound samples as well. Will at least post some pics after the weekend. Regards, API __________________ www.9voltstudio.se

14th February 2009	#248
JMc Gear addict Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Boss Angeles Posts: 457	You know, cranking the out put to full, then adjusting the gain and tweaking back the output a little really seems to have solved my "issues" with this pre, though I still think the higher gain setting shouldn't introduce quite so much crap into the signal. Right now, I've got the gain set at 12 o'clock (too lazy to get up to see what that is, specifically) and the output set to about 2 o'clock and I'm getting a really sweet tone out of it before it hits the rest of my audio chain. I've pretty much decided to fore go any mods and leave well enough alone for now. A lot of drama could have been avoided had the good folks at Golden Age simply printed up a one page manual to throw in the box (or even printed a parapgraph or two ON the box for chrissakes)... I've never used a Neve and the controls on this thing just seem counter-intuitive in terms of the direction you're supposed to crank the knobs. Maybe if I keep fooling with it, I'll discover it secretly doubles as an anti-gravity device as well... __________________ "This is not some psychotic episode - but a cleansing moment of clarity."

14th February 2009	#250
Markus Stock Gear addict Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Mellrichstadt/Germany Posts: 346	Guys, you are not really asking for a manual for a device with only two controls? Use your ears! On the package that the Pre came with it is noted that you can balance the colour of the pre with the input and output controls, so there's not really something you can do right or wrong. One mans wooliness might be another mans warmth. It all depends on the source and what sound you want. __________________ Markus Stock Engineer/Co-owner of: www.studioe.de

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13th February 2009	#241
buscemi Gear maniac Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 217	Thanks, Anthony. I've only pushed the GA ribbon I bought through you guys and a condenser through the pre. I can also try an RE-20 and SM57 to see if there's a problem. Just haven't had the need to use it in that fashion yet (if I ever would!).

14th February 2009	#245
Matti Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,756	Aha Matti

14th February 2009	#247
bash Gear maniac Joined: Dec 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 245	As a slight digression, why does the gain increase by turning it counterclockwise instead of the more standard and intuitive clockwise? The output increases clockwise, why is the input gain reversed? Is this a Neve thing and being Neve-inspired the makers of the Pre73 are just taking their cues from the original?

14th February 2009	#249
Hotstuff Gear maniac Joined: Dec 2005 Location: Portugal Posts: 189 Thread Starter	I hear you JMc, I asked G.A.Music about this and they said that a manual in not included to keep costs down, and also said that the pre is easy to operate so it doesn´t really need a manual Thanks to kidvybes for showing us how to properely adjust the gain on these typs of pre´s

14th February 2009	#251
Matti Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,756	Golden Age Music never did claim this pre to be other than it is. It´s us speculating, if you have noticed? Matti

14th February 2009	#252
Markus Stock Gear addict Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Mellrichstadt/Germany Posts: 346	There isn't sooo much to speculate about a pretty classic design and two knobs is it? Anyway, I like the Pre and tested it with alot of sources and Mics by now. Next week I am tracking an album with it and see how it will stand the test of every day use and especially how it adds up being used on a couple of sources...

14th February 2009	#253
videoracer Gear addict Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 326	Well, some of the little things you can (hopefully) get from a manual is if the design allows to connect unbalanced inputs into balance jacks. Some circuits are better at this than others. My Rane DMS22 is not fond of unbalanced inputs, but it's stated so in the manual. How 'bout overall specs and (um) schematics? I got that all with my Rane, along with all sorts of good info on setups. All those here wouldn't like a schematic of their Pre-73 please raise their hands. So yes, there are good uses for a manual for a box with two knobs...

14th February 2009	#254
JMc Gear addict Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Boss Angeles Posts: 457	I may just have to buy another one, now.

14th February 2009	#257
JMc Gear addict Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Boss Angeles Posts: 457	After reading kidvybes last comment, I thought it was about time to find out. And yes, I usually use condensers. I pulled my trusty EV-RE20 out of its coffin and drove the gain to 65 before any noticeable "bad" distortion occurred. Up to that point, it was just a very sweet vibe, indeed. So nice in fact, that I may just keep that RE-20 out of its box for awhile. Next, I connected my RCA 77D (see avatar) and was able to drive the gain even further before it got unruly. I have NEVER been able to properly drive the 77D before now, and I must say, it sounds amazing. I'm actually rethinking my decision to trade it away for something else, now. So, to sum it all up, I have to admit that my initial complaints with the GAP Pre 73 were due to my own ingnorance in setting it up properly. That acknowledged, would it have really killed their profit margin to spend another penny on ink for the box that states something like: "start with the gain and output knobs turned fully clockwise. Adjust the gain counter-clockwise until you get a satisfactory level or just until some distortion becomes apparent. If you detect any undesired harmonic distortion, either reduce the gain by one -5db increment and/or turn the output knob counter clockwise to make any further fine tuning adjustments..." Really now. Would that have been so difficult? All I can say is that doing so would have avoided 90% of the negative discussion in this thread. Oh, and I still prefer to use the GAP Pre 73 as the front end to the rest of my chain. I don't dig it so much as a stand-alone pre, but if you can toss a few toys into the chain after this thing, it really wakes up the flavor. This thing is like "Lawry's Seasoning Salt" for the steak. I absolutely love the flavor. One last comment, the LED meter is fairly useless. Ignore it and just use your ears. Clipping begins long before the clip lamp starts flickering.

14th February 2009	#259
buscemi Gear maniac Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 217	Dang, it seems I really do need to break out that RE20 as well. Would be a bonus if there were similar results here with one of my favorite mics! Thanks for running through the tests, guys.

15th February 2009	#261
Matti Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,756	Good to hear it´s ok for the price, if it handles your RCA it should handle any other mic aswell. Try the impendance settings also -Sorry, you did ;-) Matti

15th February 2009	#263
Matti Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,756	Yes, me likes that song also! Matti

17th February 2009	#267
JMc Gear addict Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Boss Angeles Posts: 457	When my now nearly 21-year-old daughter was about three years old and strapped into her car seat in the back of the minivan or whatever it was, she blurted that line out one night while we were driving somewhere. "The evil began in the monkey house." My wife and I looked at each other in disbelief. A moment later, Katie added "...the meat hung from the trees like coconuts." My wife and I looked at each other again like "WTF?" and then we started laughing. We joked that our little toddler was destined to grow up and give Stephen King a run for his money. But the lines stuck in my head and I like to use that one in particular as a test phrase when messing with microphone settings. It's been deeply ingrained in my psyche for almost two decades, now. I've said it so many times that I've actually come to believe it.

17th February 2009	#269
Melodeath Gear nut Joined: May 2008 Posts: 141	Haha, it's such a funny line, and I love the way you say it. Forgive my ignorance, but do you do radio? You have a very radio-esque voice (and I thought this before I heard the line with the radio station letters) The GAP Pre73 sounds amazing on your voice, IMHO. Though, I don't know how much of that "mojo" is actually just your voice being louder when the GAP is in the chain. I'm pretty seriously considering getting the Pre73, but I don't have an A/D to run it into (unless I give up one of my interface pres).

20th February 2009	#270
synthetik42 Gear Head Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 40	I just ordered one of this and was wondering if anyone had tried upgrading with Carnhill transformers yet? Someone had mentioned that the VTB9045 should work for the mic in and the VTB1148 for the output. I'm assuming that the line and DI in also share an input transformer, and can be swapped for a VTB9046? (I'm looking at the transformers on this page: Audio Maintenance Limited Transformers and Inductors ) I'll probably wait a bit to try this out, but sounds like it could be worth it for under $200. While I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron, I'm also pretty ignorant about circuit design, so any advice would be great....