Apex 460 tube mic

[drtaudio]

Hi Bluzzi, you can contact me at drthomas@telus.net

The 6072 and capacitor upgrades increase the headroom by 8db. It does not change the sound of the Chinese capsule which has an average rise of about 3db at 2.7khz which does sound quite nice on acoustic instruments. However, dropping the level to the output transformer reduces the grainyness and does make the microphones sound considerably smoother.

However, I also fit PELUSO capsules into these microphones and...WHAT A DIFFERENCE A CAPSULE MAKES.

Best regards, Dave

Originally Posted by Bluzzi

I tried to find contact info on Dave Thomas but I am having no luck.

Can you post the info here or let us know a search hint in order to find him? Thanks.

Does he have a web site?

Jim (ps: I just brought home a Fender Bassman 1965 cabinet I got for $100.00, got it past her this time because of the low price. Honey....I couldn't turn away a deal like that! I love my wife, she puts up with "RGS" (Repetitive Gearslutz Syndrome).

[drtaudio]

They tell you on their specifications that they use 12AT7 tubes but they are CHINESE generic 12AX7's. Cheers, Dave

Originally Posted by dasbin

Who said anything about 12AX7?
This mic comes stock with a 12AT7... at least in Canada!

[dasbin]

Mine definitely had a 12AT7 in it.

I also swapped it with a NOS 12AT7 with no difference in sound.


But I agree, the Peluso capsule makes a huge difference in sound. The mic becomes nearly godly with it. The tone is so 3D and full.
I think the Cinemag will give you a bit of a coloured texture. I'm planning on doing a bit of a circuit redesign in mine and using a Lundahl output trafo... clean and huge.

[orange]

Originally Posted by drtaudio

Also change the coupling capacitor that drives the output transformer with a 2.2ufd/400v.

thanks for these replies dave, I'm assuming that the 2.2ufd cap your talking about is to replace the 1ufd connecting pin 8 of the valve to the output transformer ? and do the peluso capsules fit on the existing 32mm mounts ?

any chance of mp3 comparisons ?

regards

si

[drtaudio]

Hello, you are right. I replace the 1 ufd with a 2.2ufd and parallel it with a .01 ufd. The PELUSO CEK-89 fits perfectly onto the existing mount.

The CEK-247 CEK-12 (34mm) capsules can touch the grill if not mounted correctly and short out. Some felt needs to be glued to the edge to prevent this happening.

Cheers, Dave

[drtaudio]

Why would you replace the cathode follower stage???

When I pull out my original 1966 tube manual and look up Cathode follower it states, " The use of the cathode follower permits the design of a circuit which has a high input impedance and high output voltage. The output impedance is quite low and very low distortion can be obtained and it can provide very low damping factors to inductive loads (transformers). The peak to peak signal voltage approaches 1.5 times the plate voltage if maximum power is required. This sounds like the perfect circuit to drive a microphone output transformer. The output impedance is low enough that you could remove the transformer in the 460 and put a larger output transformer in the power supply. The St Ives 6.8k to 200 ohm transformer in the Neve 1073 comes to mind or the Cinemag CM-2461. Although the smaller Cinemag CM-2480 will fit up into the bell housing of the 460. Once the capsule is upgraded to a Peluso, a selected 6072a installed, the coupling capacitor changed and the ouput transformer replaced the microphone will go head to head with microphone in the $3500 price range.

Cheers, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio)

I believe the NADY/Carvin version uses the 3 micron plated capsules and this increases the upper midrange making the microphone even more sibilant.

Originally Posted by dale116dot7

I did the C414BULS capsule in the Apex 460, but I did a few more mods:

AKG 2072Z0005 capsule
Sowter 4935 transformer
NOS 6072 triode
Remove the cathode follower stage, change the plate resistor to 100k, and through a 1uF, 200 volt cap, feed the transformer from the plate of the one tube.
Replace a couple of the electrolytics with film capacitors.

A 12AT7 sounds pretty good if you add a 10pF capacitor from the grid to the plate. I never did like the 12AX7 in a tube mic.

Cinemag apparently has a transformer that is the correct ratio for the C12 (and other 6072 based mics) though I have not tried this transformer yet.

My mic sounded pretty good to my ears. If you are selecting a capsule, I would recommend against a capsule that requires the EQ section of a U67 or U87 - so I would not pick a capsule that comes from either of those. The Blue K47 copy would probably sound pretty good, I have not tried one of those yet. One caution is that the original capsule mount is for a 32mm capsule, and that works for my DIY'ed capsules (which are based on the Neumann M7, complete with a glued diaphragm) - they are 32mm in diameter, but most others are 34mm. I will be trying one of my M7-like capsules in my 460 in a few weeks (once I get more diaphragms).

I would avoid the Chinese 32mm capsules, they generally sound harsh to my ears. I am not sure if they can be tuned any better. Most of the sound is determined by the drilled passages, so changing much of anything except making new backplates is not likely to help the sound much. The diaphragms on my Apex 460 were not glued to a tensioning/retainer ring (as the Apex 430 diaphragms were) which means that if you take the capsule like this apart, you will not get it together properly without a brand new diaphragm.

I ordered the AKG capsule from Long and Mcquade, it was about $300.

Here is my mic lab, and this shows depositing metal on a diaphragm, tensioning a diaphragm and one possible jig used to do that:

http://www.10000cows.com/diyaudio.htm

-Dale

[dkelley]

hey Dave,

I emailed with you a few weeks ago about getting a 460 modded and also getting my 421 fixed up a bit. Could you tell me briefly what your personal description would be of each of the following Peluso caps as fitted into a 460?

CEK-89

CEK-247

CEK-12

For example, if I was looking for a c12 copy, I assume I want a cek-12 cap, and if so then I'm expecting a scooped sound with plenty of air and sizzle (possibly too much depending on your use of the mic). However, if I'm looking for more warmth, would a cek-89 do that? I th ink I want more warmth than a c12, but I'd certainly find good use for a c12 sound as well. The warmth would be good though for female lead vocals to come out in a complex mix a bit, compared to the sound of a real vintage c12 if memory serves me. While I often use cut eq to notch out areas for instruments in a mix, that's tougher to do for certain vocals since it's the vocal you don't want to eq, it's the rest of the mix, and if the vocal is already somewhat scooped then it makes finding a tonal center for the voice much more challenging to cut a place for. In general if I use a u87 or similar I can get away without cut eq for a female vocal if the musical arrangement was done in a complimentary way. Sorry, I do tend to go on about things like this...

I have read somewhere in the past that part of the neumann warmth comes from an eq circuit that is built into the mic's electronics. If so, then will using a neumann-esque capsule give me a bit more warmth or would it require a change in the circuit to get that kind of warmth?

warmth to me equals increased output in the lower mids and less output in the 8k+ area I suppose, or something like that, as opposed to scooped sound which is more highs and less lower mids in my way of thinking.

Thanks in advance. I just need to decide how I want this baby modded, what my goal is for tone. As you know I own and love 435s, use them a lot for vocals along with some very nice SDCs I've collected over the years, but I no longer have a LDC tube mic. I used to love the AKG sound, used a c12 a LOT in my older recordings, alos owned a first generation "the tube" which was nice. Also had a pair of 414s but only loved them for certain things (never tried them on vocals actually, silly me). But I also used plenty of u47s and u87s and loved them for some voices (sometimes too middy for my voice but great for women I've found).

Since I can only afford one 460 plus modding per year probably right now, I want my first 460 mod to give me a warmer sound, less scooped, since I already have 435s which are a little scooped already and very sizzly (but very nice). And yes I use other mics (c7 etc) for vocals but am looking specifically for that tube lead vocal tone that I used to get. I always have gotten it with good mics, scooped or not, but since I'm getting to choose the capsule, might as well choose the one that I will find mose useful for lead vocals, particularly female lead vocals since I get a lot of those, but any lead vocals really. And other uses of course...

Cheers,
Don

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by VO-Guy

Hey everyone, thought you might be interested. Another voice over guy did a test with the Apex 460 against a U87. Granted it's Vo work but I thought it was interesting. Check it out. The first mike is the Apex and the second mike is the U87. The test was done through a Symetrix 528. Not the 528E but the older Symetrix. Just thought you might find it interesting.

so the u87 was a little more sensitive to the bass. the narrator moved a little and u could hear the bass dropping in and out.

but when it was with the bass its sounded more fuller and richer. when the bass was off it sounded similar.

i wonder if u add some low end eq to the aphex will make it sound.

both had a great deal of high siblance.



i wished we could here more samples. its great able to compare.

if someone has both the telefunken m16 ad the aphex ill love to hear that.

or more mics in the 1500 range compared to the aphex

[gsilbers]

just wondering if to get this one. i have a AKG 2000b and just wondering if this aphex will be a stepup up or just about the same.

[lpkyer]

I just ordered an apex 460 w/ peluso cek-12, new 6072 tube and custom transformer
I will post some sound clips as soon as I receive it, promised.

I also bought an APEX 435 that I will mod the capsule with a peluso cek-89. we'll see how it holds up to a real U67

[jctaudiodesigns]

Whats the word on the Apex 435 mod?

[Phil Cibley]

Originally Posted by dasbin

With a transformer and capsule switch, this mic could become quite good.

With that much time, effort and expense, why not just save the money
and apply it toward a better sounding tube mic which won't break the bank.
They're out there.

[gsilbers]

CAN SOMEONE UPLOAD SOME SAMPLES OF THAT 460 MODDED AGAINST THE REAL C-12, ILL LOVE TO HEAR THE DIFERENCES AND SIMILARITIES.

THANKS

[Baz]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

CAN SOMEONE UPLOAD SOME SAMPLES OF THAT 460 MODDED AGAINST THE REAL C-12, ILL LOVE TO HEAR THE DIFERENCES AND SIMILARITIES.

THANKS

I was told that the CM12 (Dave's modded Apex 460) was used on the vocals for THIS guy.

I recently recorded some demo material for this same singer using a DT modded TCM1050 (CM47-LE) and thought that this mic suited him better. The mic had no sib problem of note - which I didn't find to be the case with the CM12 on this cat's voice...Maybe it was an EQ issue at mix, dunno.Either way, both the CM12 and CM47-LE (with Peluso CEK367 and CineMag CM2461) are great buys imo.

[jowillie]

OK....so tell me again the mods Dave recommends to make the 460 sound similar to the U87 for Voiceover work.
Or did he say he would mod the 435 to sound more like a U87?

Actually, can he mod the Apex shotgun to be similar to the Sennheiser MKH 416?
(I'm serous!)
WE

[lpkyer]

Originally Posted by jowillie

OK....so tell me again the mods Dave recommends to make the 460 sound similar to the U87 for Voiceover work.
Or did he say he would mod the 435 to sound more like a U87?

Actually, can he mod the Apex shotgun to be similar to the Sennheiser MKH 416?
(I'm serous!)
WE

The mod for the U87 would be to put a Peluso CEK-89 capsule in the mic. It would work for the 435 too. Jim Williams also talked about changing the FET.

[Henchman]

I'm having dave replace my m177 cad mic's for the peluso as well as chngae some caps.
I'll have spent less than $300 at that point. Not bad to get a U87 soundalike.

[lpkyer]

Hey Henchman, how's winter in BC?
I'd love to hear a clip of you 177 once modded !!

[roxxon]

B.C.'s Winter has been the worst in the past 20 years.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by roxxon

B.C.'s Winter has been the worst in the past 20 years.

It's still not that bad though.

mark

[lpkyer]

Originally Posted by roxxon

B.C.'s Winter has been the worst in the past 20 years.

yeah that's what I heard actualy
Here in the east it took a long time before arriving. Soon we'll have palm trees

[roxxon]

The windstorms were brutal.
160 km winds!
Thousands of felled trees.
Big trees!
Lots of costly property damage.
Too much snow, lots of rain.
It could have been much worse, I guess.

We had a great summer.
I'm hoping for a repeat!

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by roxxon

The windstorms were brutal.
160 km winds!
Thousands of felled trees.
Big trees!
Lots of costly property damage.
Too much snow, lots of rain.
It could have been much worse, I guess.

We had a great summer.
I'm hoping for a repeat!

Thats strange, here in So.Cal, we broke records set from 1952... windstorms and even some snow....

I think the windstorms are Canadas fault. shame shame on you guys!

[JoeHimself]

Anyone get a chance to make some before mod/after mod clips ?

[Echowash]

Hey guys

I used this forum and a few others to finally decide to mod my Apex 460 with a Peluso CEK-12 capsule and a CM-2048 transformer. It was a bit daunting but I got it all installed no problems. I decided to make a simple site with a picture tutorial how to do it to make it easier for everyone else who wants to do the mod. Here's the Peluso capsule mod here:

Apex 460 Mods

When I get the transformer mod site done I'll let you know. Enjoy!

[MATTI]

This is not an Apex, but an Alctron as well, the capsule is the thing here also!

Matti

[mamm7215]

Originally Posted by Echowash

When I get the transformer mod site done I'll let you know. Enjoy!

That's awesome, thanks. Hey, do you plan to do the usual mod to the caps/main circuit as well. I'd love some step by step pics for that, too. Simples like me need the pretty pictures to help get it done!!!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Echowash

Hey guys

I used this forum and a few others to finally decide to mod my Apex 460 with a Peluso CEK-12 capsule and a CM-2048 transformer. It was a bit daunting but I got it all installed no problems. I decided to make a simple site with a picture tutorial how to do it to make it easier for everyone else who wants to do the mod. Here's the Peluso capsule mod here:

Apex 460 Mods

When I get the transformer mod site done I'll let you know. Enjoy!

Echowash - nice! Looking forward to the transformer swap "how to". Good work!

bp

[MATTI]

My attitude was to show it can be done,
with various results though... The capsule in this mic is a genuene hand made capsule in a Lawson mount, both kind of emulate old Neumanns but not pretending to be one. -But for sure it sounds off standard oem mic at least, I dare to say way better, sorry my english sucks
again, I meant WAY BETTER.

Matti

[Echowash]

Originally Posted by mamm7215

That's awesome, thanks. Hey, do you plan to do the usual mod to the caps/main circuit as well. I'd love some step by step pics for that, too. Simples like me need the pretty pictures to help get it done!!!

Glad you guys are enjoying the tutorial! I'll hopefully be doing the transformer mod on a friend's mic this weekend and taking some pics for a new site that I'll do for that mod. I haven't done any of the capacitor changes yet on my mic but if I ever get to it I'll put something up for that too. Definitely need the soldering skills for those ones!