Apex 460 tube mic

[Bluzzi]

Originally Posted by Teacher

LMAO... I guarantee if it was a 10K dining set or jewelry she'd be singing a different tune

"Women, can't live with them, and you can't herd'em all to Canada..." Al Bundy

I almost read the author of the quote as Ted Bundy! I had chills running down my spine.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by Bluzzi

Can you post the info here or let us know a search hint in order to find him? Thanks.
Does he have a web site?

Dave Thomas sells his modded Apex 460 through Ebay. Do a seach for the Apex 460 and you will find him.

Peace

[animix]

Originally Posted by ron florentine

My Apex 460 should be here any day now.....I had Dave Thomas up in Canada do his mods to it ....I spent a touch more and went with the 6072 tube......with shipping and all mods came close to 400........Anyway if it a half descent multi patter tube mic it is well worth the money.........from a few people i spoke with the mods really change things sonically and makes it a great sounding mic.........time will tell!

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

A friend of mine just ordered two of these. He's a very good tech and often builds DIY mics. He's built Gyraf designs and theMojave among others. Here's his post to another forum regarding the 460.....................

[QUOTE] >Last week I received a pair of Apex 460 tube mics in the mail. If you
>recall, these are the same mics that Telefunken USA were spray painting
and
>selling for $1300. So I was intrigued. Were these $1300 mics that you

>could get for $229, or were they $229 mics that were being pawned off for

>$1300? For $229, I figured I couldn't go wrong, since it would still be

>worth it if I were to gut the mics and start from scratch. As a side note,

>after ordering the Apex mics for $229, I found the Nady 1150's new on eBay

>for $159 each. These mics are identical to the 460's. I bought a pair
of
>those too.
>
>I drew out a schematic and had _________ (name deleted here to protect the innocent) , my friend (and electronics mentor) look

>it over.
>
>
>It seems that there is a serious design error with this mic. The mic uses
a
>second gain stage, a cathode follower. This lowers the output impedance

>feeding the output transformer. With a cathode follower, a lower turns

>ratio transformer can be used, like a 4:1 or lower. This mic uses a 10:1,

>which is appropriate for a single gain stage and not for a cathode follower.

>I took one of the mics, took out the cathode follower stage, replaced the

>cheep capacitors ion the signal path, and removed the low pass shunt caps
at
>the xformer outputs. I also lowered the voltages to the heaters and the

>capsule as well.
>
>I find that when I still have the smell of solder in my nostrils, I am not

>very objective about the sound of my stuff. I recorded drum overheads,

>acoustic guitar, and vocals with a modded and unmodded mic. I had another

>buddy of mine (a full time audio engineer) do a blind listening of the
>stuff. Here is our verdict:
>
>The modded mic was better on all sources.
>The unmodded mic was unacceptable for all sources but the vocals, where
it
>was still less preferable to the modded one.
>On the drum overheads, the unmodded mic sounded to my buddy like "there
is a
>metal rod connected to the ride cymbal, which has it's other end connected

>to an ice-pick sticking in my ear".
>The modded mic was much smoother on the OH, but not up to snuff with the

>414ULS or 4050's that I usually use on OH.
>The modded mic still needs a little bit of work. Right now it sounds like
a
>decent Chinese mic. The capsule and/or output transformer are limiting
the
>mic's performance.
>
>The stock mic is an absolute TURD. Do not buy one unless you plan to do

>some work on it.[QUOTE]

It would be interesting to hear Telefunken's description of how their circuitry design differs from the aboive described miscreation.

[mds]

Hey guys,

I haven't followed the whole debacle, but I was curious if anyone has compared the circuit of the Telefunken with these cheaper mics or if the "identical" claims are based on the asthetics alone. Telefunken could easily be buying the casing from a supplier and using completely different electronics. It also seems feasible that these cheaper mics are knockoffs and not the same mic. Just curious!

Thanks!

M

[animix]

Originally Posted by mds

Hey guys,

I haven't followed the whole debacle, but I was curious if anyone has compared the circuit of the Telefunken with these cheaper mics or if the "identical" claims are based on the asthetics alone. Telefunken could easily be buying the casing from a supplier and using completely different electronics. It also seems feasible that these cheaper mics are knockoffs and not the same mic. Just curious!

Thanks!

M

I haven't followed it all either. There aren't enough hours in the day for me as it is, but now that there is a description of the 460 circuit, it would be pretty easy for Telefunken to at least verify/deny that their circuit design is similar. If it's similar, then it's (perhaps arguably) flawed, no matter what tube/tranny is being used.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by mds

Hey guys,

I haven't followed the whole debacle, but I was curious if anyone has compared the circuit of the Telefunken with these cheaper mics or if the "identical" claims are based on the asthetics alone. Telefunken could easily be buying the casing from a supplier and using completely different electronics. It also seems feasible that these cheaper mics are knockoffs and not the same mic. Just curious!

Thanks!

M

http://www.studioreviews.com/m16-460.htm

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...telefunken+rft

[nano_nano]

Just for the guys planning to take the apex and replace it with the gyraf design. Are you sure that the power supply for the Ahex will feed the +160v on pin 2 and 6.3V for the heaters on pin 6? Are you "really" sure that this power supply will work? Cause if so I'd love to try it.

[gyraf]

..The powersupply will probably work - but you'll need to do some slight modifications to it, like ensuring cabling pinout and setting output HT voltage to 160V..

I haven't got the apex 460 schematics, so I can't describe details.

Jakob E.

[ron florentine]

Still havent had any extra time to put my Dave Thomas modded Apex 460 mic to a full test .....but i did have a big voice over session all day yesterday with eight different people all at once speaking and the modded 460 held it own quite nicely with much more expensive mics........its a bit of a brighter mic so i ended up have a male with a low resonate voice use it it sounded very nice.............just thought i would let you guys know.

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[VO-Guy]

Hey everyone, thought you might be interested. Another voice over guy did a test with the Apex 460 against a U87. Granted it's Vo work but I thought it was interesting. Check it out. The first mike is the Apex and the second mike is the U87. The test was done through a Symetrix 528. Not the 528E but the older Symetrix. Just thought you might find it interesting.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by ron florentine

Still havent had any extra time to put my Dave Thomas modded Apex 460 mic to a full test .....but i did have a big voice over session all day yesterday with eight different people all at once speaking and the modded 460 held it own quite nicely with much more expensive mics........its a bit of a brighter mic so i ended up have a male with a low resonate voice use it it sounded very nice.............just thought i would let you guys know.

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

Hey Ron, Any more thoughts about the Apex 460?

[Phunkeman]

I have a modded apex 460 in my studio right now.....got it Saturday recorded my voice talking and trying to sing a scale. I used a Tube Tech MEC 1A and a Presonus MP20. I will try to load up the samples later tonight. I didn't match levels very well because I was running back to the booth to talk but I believe you can get an idea of what the mic sounds like.

[ron florentine]

So far so good..........I have used it on vox and acoustic gtr........and as a room mic.............i did get the mic modded by Dave Thomas(i spent the extra $ an opted for the 6072 tube).................I have other more expensive mic that I mostly favor....but at this price/performance ratio i cant see a better deal out there........with all the different mic patterns options you have it makes it a vey versatile mic.

DAMN! even in .mp3 you can hear that 87 beat the crap out of the 460.
The 460 is like a mids/meat eliminator.
The 87 sounds like a VO should.

Go figger!

Is that 460 a modded one?

I have got to pull my 87 out more...............



D

[Inner Light]

Originally Posted by dpasch

DAMN! even in .mp3 you can hear that 87 beat the crap out of the 460.
The 460 is like a mids/meat eliminator.
The 87 sounds like a VO should.

Go figger!

Is that 460 a modded one?

I have got to pull my 87 out more...............



D

the voice comes out a lot more. I too wouldn't mind knowing if it's modded one or not.

Nice voice by the way

[ron florentine]

Dont bother getting this mic without the modd........with the modd it a great mic to have in your cabinet.................... without the modd.....forget about it!

[araw]

Has anybody encountered quality control issues when buying the APEX 460s where two of them sound slightly different???

Thanks,

-A

[orange]

i've got two - not a great match. Not vastly different, but noticible.

I tried moving the capsules and the sound moves with that - so it's poor quality control on the capsules i'm afraid. No amount of capacitor/transformer/valve/grill work is gonna fix that.

si

[VO-Guy]

Originally Posted by dpasch

DAMN! even in .mp3 you can hear that 87 beat the crap out of the 460.
The 460 is like a mids/meat eliminator.
The 87 sounds like a VO should.

Go figger!

Is that 460 a modded one?

I have got to pull my 87 out more...............



D

Sorry it's taken so long to reply. No it wasn't the modded.

[drtaudio]

Hi Guys, I do not believe there is a design flaw with the 460 microphone output circuit other than there is an economy transformer in the output. The output transformer has a ratio of about 8:1 this means that if the secondary of the transformer is terminated in a 150 ohm load the primary impedance will be 10K ohms. This is what is required otherwise headroom will decrease as the cathode of the tube is loaded down. Even though cathode follower circuits claim to have a resistance of around 500 to 1500 ohms the cathode should be loaded will no less than 10 times this impedance. With a 1ufd coupling capacitor the low frequency response would be about 3db down at 400hz with a 600 ohm load.

If I was going to upgrade the transformer then I would replace it with a similar 10K to 150 ohm transformer. The legendary Sony C37P tube microphone had a cathode follower output circuit and the output transformer had a ratio of 10K to 150 ohms which makes sense. The Sony has a -8db input pad and I remember using them on toms for a Jazz record once but with an original 460 it is possible to overload the tube/transformer circuit when used on close "rock" vocals.

The AKG C12 uses a 6072 configured as a single triode amplifier requiring a much higher output impedance from the plate of the tube. The 6072 has about 6db less gain than a 12AX7. Placing a 6072 in the 460 will cut the output level reaching the transformer by almost half reducing harmonic distortion in the transformer. This helps get rid of some of that 460 "grainyness". I also replace the transformer coupling capacitors in upgraded 460 microphones which helps with the transient response as I bypass a larger value electrolytic with a faster .01 ufd. I also remove a couple of output bypass capacitors that are there to reduce RF pickup in transformerless preamps but it is possible for these capacitors to reduce hf response with some preamps.

The major contributor to the sound of the 460 is the capsule and not all 460 capsules are made equal. This is the downside of buying "cheap" Chinese microphones. However, this is the advantage of buying a selected and upgraded microphone from us. I do not ship out selected 460 microphones that have what I deam as inferior capsules. APEX is very good with me regarding this as long as I acknowledge that there will be differences from capsule to capsule and from one side of the capsule to the other but we have come to an agreement on how much of a difference is acceptable. I usually have to go through about 3-6 microphones to find a pair that are close enough to be classed as a pair. Yet, these microphones have a frequency response which is within + or - 2db of each other and can sound quite good on their own. I find the APEX 460 microphones to be more consistent between capsules than the OKTAVA MK319 microphones that I use to sell.


We had two Telefunken U47 tube microphones during my years at Ocean Sound and one always sounded a bit different than the other but both sounded good. Even, with the U47 I remember sometimes putting on the foam pop filter to reduce sibilance because we loved the sound of the microphone but the vocalist was really sibilant. If you cut a record too hot an sizzly the record grooves could actually run into each other on transient peaks. However, with digital recorders these transient levels can just be normalized and high frequency transients reduced all in the digital domain. However, I still hear some over sibilant vocal recordings from time to time.

The 460 has about a 2db rise at 2.7khz and this can result in some vocals sounding too bright...especially "rock" vocals. However, the 460 will suite some vocalists and it especially seems to work well on female vocals and mellow vocals. However, even on "screaming punk vocals" the 460 never sounds "brittle" to me like some of the RODE microphones and other economical Chinese microphones.

The 460 was built to economically replicate the AKG C12 which does not have a pad. When the AKG C12 was designed no one ever attempted to use a C12 closer than 2-3' from a vocalist and a pad was not necessary. However, the 460 seems to sound much "smoother" with a selected 6072 fitted. The 6072 seems to reduce the gain "organically" and allow the 460 to be used in front of high SPL sources and loud vocals and retain its smoothness.

If you have a drummer with loud cymbals who likes to hit them hard and you used 460's as overheads with 12AX7 or even 6072 tubes tubes in a low ceiling environment (less than 14') then you will probably be hearing some even order harmonic distortion from the tube and output transformer. Probably this senerio of drum recording is a better fit for ribbon microphones or with a 12AT7 in the 460 reducing the gain at least another 3db. However, I have used 460 microphones over a jazz drummer who plays with finesse and got a very nice results without the cymbals sounding mettalic. I had the microphones in OMNI about 6' to 7' of the ground in a studio with 24' ceilings. The 460 is also very nice on acoustic instruments like acoustic guitar and strings but it can be a bit "grainy" on grand piano.

Interesting, how personal taste must be taken into account. I prefer the sound of the 460 on voice/over compared to the U87. I find the 87 to be a bit to upfront in the midrange and "spitty" but a lot of high pressure full on voice-overs require this ....however, I prefer the 460 on straight narration for most voice talent. If I want a more upfront, upper midrange voice/over I would use the APEX 435 which is a Cardiod large diaphragm with a fet preamp and discrete balanced outputs. The 435 sounds closer to an 87 in cardiod than the 460 and it sells for $79. It has about 2db more 7-8k than an 87 but this can be cut at the EQ if necessary.

I have an old friend of mine with big deep broadcast pipes he has a 460 in his home studio which he loves on his voice. He is bringing it over next week for me to upgrade and put in a 6072.

There are lots of microphones that look like the 460 and the Telefunken M-16 which is nearly identical except for the grey finish, Telefunken Logo and inferior response. This difference in response was probably the result of a slightly superior 460 capsule and tube minus a slightly inferior M-16 capsule and tube.

In my experience with the 460 microphones the tubes and capsules make the biggest difference in sound between each microphone. The capacitors make a more subtle difference and are not as dramatic as changing the tubes gain. The microphone preamp must also be able to take high levels on its input before distortion as the 460 can produce a robust output even with a 6072.


Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio) DRTAUDIO

drthomas@telus.net

[dasbin]

Interesting post!


To me the biggest problem with the 460's sound is the lack of both low- and upper-mids presence (it does have mid-mids, as you said). It sounds impressive and very airy, but this scooped tonality is a big problem when used in a dense mix. There's no substance to punch through. It doesn't sound anything like what you hear in a typical pop mix, which is somewhere between a 57 and a U87.
I like the 460 in sparse, mellow mixes, where there are few backing instruments. It sounds very good on my voice, and others', in these situations.
Definitely some major sibilance problems on certain vocalists. Major major problems. This mic does not like my brother.

Recently changed the capsule for a Peluso CK12. The airy highs are still there but there is a bit more body, just enough to make it sound more natural and expensive rather than an imitation of expensive. Sibilance is still really bad on certain voices though. I replaced the tube with a NOS Mullard but didn't change the type.
Soon will be totally reworking the circuit to make this into a Gyraf G7 with Lundahl. Hopefully this will completely cure the sibilance problem and I'm also hoping it will make it a little less "scooped" sounding so it does better in dense mixes, but we'll see.

There is so much 8-9Khz on the stock capsule it's ridiculous.
On the new capsule this is instead a lot of 12-16Khz. Like I said, this is more expensive sounding.
Never in any circumstances need to boost the highs with either one. But strangely I find myself wishing for more of the "Rode sound" 6Khz presense and buzziness (where the Apex seems scooped) which actually sounds a little more natural and definitely better in a dense mix. Not as flattering as the 460 with either capsule but just more right-sounding in the end.

[drtaudio]

Hello, again guys. The bottom line is that an upgraded 460 is great value from me at $300. There are some other microphones with the same case but sell for less than the $229 stock APEX price but these may not have the same capsule as those from APEX. However, these cheaper "460" types may would be good as a start for upgrades if you are interested at installing a higher quality capsule and components.

The word I hear from APEX is the Chinese companies all buy the cases from one factory and then the quality varies depending on what the importer wants to pay for the microphone. In general I have found most other economical Chinese microphone capsules to be inferior to those used in the APEX microphones.

Changing 12AX7 tubes will not make any difference. The 12AX7 has too much gain for close vocals and loud sources ...a 6072 must be fitted or even a 12AT7 if you are using the 460 above drums at less than 3'.

I just sold a selected and matched pair with 6072 tubes to a studio in the U.K. and this is the comment that I got back regarding the 460 when used on a recent recording session. This client just ordered another 4-460's from me.

"OK -now the mics have seriously impressed! Using a combination today of U87 plus APEX 460 for acoustic. The Apex Mic described as "inspiring" to work with, like it's EQ'd already. This, by the way is a guy called Mike Nocito, one of the best engineer producers around, trained at RAK studios back in the early 80s worked with all the big guys (McCartney, Police, Floyd, his own band Johnny Hates Jazz etc..). Praise from him is praise indeed!"

This is basically what I have found with the microphone. I do not have the track record of Mike but during the 70's and 80's at Ocean Sound I have recorded many artists from K.D. Lang to Joey "Shithead" from the Vancouver Punk Band D.O.A. and worked extensively with the late Brian McCloud from the Vancouver band Chilliwack plus recorded over 250 live Jazz radio shows. I would have loved to have a pair of 460's during this time and especially for the live Jazz recordings. However, I was impressed with the 460 the first time I heard it and we immediately changed out the Chinese tube. We have compared it to several other low cost Chinese microphones as my good friend works at the largest music retailer in Canada and has access to most of the microphone lines but the 460 seems to stand out. It takes a FEILO/SE 5600 at around $800 with a selected 6072 installed to compete with the 460.

There are no schematics available from APEX at this time but I have a hand drawn version. The circuit on the capsule side is nearly identical for all practical purposes to the AKG C12 but the second half of the "12AX7/6072" is used in the 460 as a cathode follower which adds no gain but reduces the output impedance feed to the transformer by at least 10 times. Cathode follower circuits typically have a gain of about .9.

The power supply will easily supply 160v volts. The supply measures about 250v before a resistor network drops it to about 150v. This resistor network can be "tweaked" if the power supply is to be used with other microphones.

The 12AX7/6072 filaments are paralleled and fed with 6 volts d.c. We have found a couple of power supplies out of over 200 units were the 6v regulator has failed (shorted) and is putting out 12 volts dc without a tube installed. The voltage on the filament will drop to about 8volts dc if the regulator has shorted with the tube plugged in and the hum level will increase. The 12AX7 or 6072 draws 300ma of current at 6 volts and the regulator is capable of handling 1.5 amps. I do not think there is a design flaw just the odd defective regulator.

We tried a Jensen transformer in one 460 but could not hear enough of a difference to warrant the extra cost. I can supply Lundahl transformers for a bit less than Jensen the LL1576 will work at about $80 each. To get this price I would have to order 10 transformers. The LL1576 is 34mmx24mmx17mm and will fit in the bottom of the shell and the LL1576 it can handle a level of +10dbu.

Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio) DRTAUDIO

drthomas@telus.net

[dasbin]

Who said anything about 12AX7?
This mic comes stock with a 12AT7... at least in Canada!

[gatormusic]

Dave just finished with the mod for my Apex. After using in my own studio using Langevin, Focusrite and Neve, I had a chance to A/B in the studio with an unmoddified 460.
The modified has a much flatter response, far less grainy sounding on the highs, clearer and sweeter sounding. Fairly large improvement.
It's much cleaner, but still pretty hot. I was singing from 10inches to 5inches out and with acoustic guitar about 14inches out with lots of gain left on the Focusrite pre.
The differences are more apparent on acoustic guitar...very much improved guitar sound.
Gator

[popmann]

Why is a 460 being compared to a U87?

Should we have C12s and 251s (and clones) up there against it?

The 87 sounds light years better, IMO. But...I don't know if you stuck a 251 against it, if I wouldn't feel the same way. Very different sounding capsules.

[gus]

In another forum I have shared the schematic of the nady1050 that I drew. Some one I know has the nady1150s and apex 460 . The three china microphones use above use both parts of the triode. Look for the gefell schematics on the web and note they use 1/2 of a 12at7 and a lower than 11:1 output transformer. Try a NOS 12at7.

My two 1050s transformers measured 11:1 maybe there are different ratios being used. Go to the cinemag site and look at the PDFs of some transformers being driven with a low source Z vs a higher source Z

IMO There are two more important flaws with the microphone and power supply system.

The stock transformer is on the bigger side of the china stuff I have changed it to other output transformers and even relammed it, Yes there is a small improvement but there are other problems that would make this a waste of time and money IMO.

[orange]

IMO There are two more important flaws with the microphone and power supply system.

..... Yes there is a small improvement but there are other problems that would make this a waste of time and money IMO.

hiya gus,

what do you think are the two more important flaws ?



si

[dasbin]

I'm wondering the same thing Gus.

[drtaudio]

The NADY, APEX, CARVIN, TELE M-16 all come from the same Chinese factory. It is possible that NADY, CARVIN etc have 3 micron capsules but I don't hear a lot of difference between the APEX 6 micron and the 3 micron. NADY states that they have a 6072 tube but the NADY I have was supplied with a CHINESE generic 12AX7 tube exactly like the one in the 460... which can be noisy and have too much gain for close vocals. I upgrade APEX 460 microphones because they are a Canadian company and have been good to me regarding warantee issues.

I first started replacing them with 5751 tube but found the 6072 is the best fit. It is more expensive than a 12AX7 or 5751 but can usually be bought for around $17 U.S. and will increase the headroom by 8db. The cheap chinese output transformers response is improved with the reduction in output level that the 6072 provides. A selected 12AT7 will also produce the same results with about 2db less output and I use these when 6072 tubes are not available.

These microphones can be bought directly from CHINA for about $85 but have to be ordered in lots of 50 and delivery is probably 8-10 weeks. I just fitted a PELUSO capsule into a 460 and ...WHAT A DIFFERENCE A CAPSULE MAKES.!!!!

I like selected and upgraded 460 microphones with the original capsules on acoustic instruments as the 460 has about a 3db lift at 2.7khz but it also rises slightly at about 8khz while Neumanns and the PELUSO rise slightly at just above 12khz. The Chinese capsules also vary at least + and - 3db in their response and I usually have to go through 3-6 microphones to find a matched pair with Chinese capsules. However, the PELUSO capsules are within + and - 1db of each other. With a PELUSO CEK-12 the response is much smoother and with a CINEMAG transformer fitted you now have as close to a C12 as one can get without putting out $10K ot $15K. With a PELUSO CEK-89 the response is very similar to the Neumann U67 but with 9 different Polar patterns. I also upgrade the NADY TCM 1050 which is a bit easier to fit the CEK 267 PELUSO U47 capsule into and looks strikingly like the venerable U47 tube microphone.

Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio) drthomas@telus.net

Originally Posted by orange

I guessing that some of you, like me, are anxious to try out the Apex mic - These are hard to get hold of in the UK - so i did a bit of looking around. I figured that if the Chinese were supplying 2 western "badge manufacturers" with this mic they would also be supplying other companies with the same mic. The cheap ribbon mic doing the rounds as a T.bone/nady/adk/whatever is an example.

anyway i've ordered - http://www.nady.com/products/product...mmics_pg3.html
i'm guessing that it's the same mic - except this was $159. I'll open it up and take some photos when it arrives.
si

[drtaudio]

Try changing the tube to a 6072 and you will notice some difference. You also might have a 460 with an out of spec capsule. Also change the coupling capacitor that drives the output transformer with a 2.2ufd/400v.

I just fitted one with a PELUSO capsules and WHAT A DIFFERENCE A CAPSULE MAKES!!!! I have the proper Cinemag transformers arriving next week but I would bet the cost of the PELSUO that it makes a bigger difference in the sound than the output transformer but the Cinemag will just add a bit more dimension I am sure.

Cheers, Dave Thomas (drthomas@telus.net)

Originally Posted by dasbin

I replaced just the tube in mine with a really nice Mullard NOS one and noticed no difference in sound at all. I don't think that alone helps, despite what people want to believe.

If you're modding this beast I would recommend going all-out for a Gyraf G7 conversion. The PSU will work stock and the circuitry is very similar, you'd just have to make a few modifications. Swap the tranny for something decent and stick a Peluso CK12 capsule in there and you've got a mic that will REALLY compete with the big boys for a few hundred bucks. I'm planning on doing this in a month or so.