Is it worth upgrading my mic pre?

[tINY]

Looking at your list, I'd suggest getting some other mics before getting trendy pre-amps. A multi-channel Macke Onyx will get you by just fine.




-tINY

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by tINY

Looking at your list, I'd suggest getting some other mics before getting trendy pre-amps. A multi-channel Macke Onyx will get you by just fine.




-tINY

Trendy? Wow...
That's why TOP engineers buy "Trendy" pres because they are so blind...

[kludge]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Trendy? Wow...
That's why TOP engineers buy "Trendy" pres because they are so blind...

That's a little reactionary, imho. I think tINY makes a good point that his sig lists some basically entry-level mics, and a better mic with the Tampa/DMP3 may be a better investment than a better preamp with the entry-level mics.

[dickiefunk]

Originally Posted by tINY

Looking at your list, I'd suggest getting some other mics before getting trendy pre-amps.




-tINY

Originally Posted by kludge

That's a little reactionary, imho. I think tINY makes a good point that his sig lists some basically entry-level mics, and a better mic with the Tampa/DMP3 may be a better investment than a better preamp with the entry-level mics.

Thanks for the replies guys. This is pretty much my feelings on this. I think I'll keep hold of these and depending on how much I make selling my stuff I might get either a mic or a mic + the Electro Harmonix 12-AY7 Mic Pre to compliment my Tampa and DMP3?

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by kludge

That's a little reactionary, imho. I think tINY makes a good point that his sig lists some basically entry-level mics, and a better mic with the Tampa/DMP3 may be a better investment than a better preamp with the entry-level mics.

A while back I was doing a demo at a studio, 3 good engineers were there and to make a long story short all 3 picked a certain mic pre over several others, all other pres were well known pres, the MIC that was used on vocals was a SM58...

So my point is even with a low priced mic the "pre" was still the most important part...

[kozsak]

"So my point is even with a low priced mic the "pre" was still the most important part..."

+1

[tINY]

I guess a pre can go a long way towards making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's better to get the silk purse to start with...

...I'm gonna guess that the magical pre-amp probably costs as much as 3-4 good mics.




-tINY

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by tINY

I guess a pre can go a long way towards making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's better to get the silk purse to start with...

...I'm gonna guess that the magical pre-amp probably costs as much as 3-4 good mics.




-tINY

Then Tiny, going by that statement I would conclude you have done little to none of real recording in a real studio...
Sorry but that is VERY obvious...

[toxostoma rufum]

My MXL v67g into my Speck sounds excellent and significantly better than through an okay pre, so a pre upgrade might be worth it.

But I'd go with a mic upgrade for sure...but don't sell the v67g!!!

[tINY]

Actually, I find that the mic and the room make a much bigger difference than the mic pre-amp (not to mention placement).

In the Low End Theory forum, I'm gonna side with the biggest change in sound for the least cash. So, a $1000+ pre amp is off the menu unless it has 8 channels.... There is no reason to have a dozen $100 mics and 6 high dollar pre-amps.

If, by "real studio" you mean one that hires out to the public and has over $1m invested in the facility, then, no. The only things they have that would make a significant difference is a good room, probably a good, varied colletcion of mics, and sometimes a good staff. Any more, the bling of big boards, mechanical rooms with Pro-Tools computers, and a bunch of trendy outboard gear doesn't make much of a difference. ,,,Unless you are selling it to a rap "artist" or are trying to get a trendy pop single out.

Well, that and they usually can hook you up with the local vice supply.





-tINY

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Then Tiny, going by that statement I would conclude you have done little to none of real recording in a real studio...
Sorry but that is VERY obvious...

About as obvious as it is that you sell gear?

[NorseHorse]

"Real studio"? If I were going to write a paper on that comment, I'd have to invent some new words like studiocentric or studioegoisms. You know, just something to describe how oppressive that push of what consitutes "real" was.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by moon_unit

About as obvious as it is that you sell gear?

YES I do...

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by tINY

Actually, I find that the mic and the room make a much bigger difference than the mic pre-amp (not to mention placement).

In the Low End Theory forum, I'm gonna side with the biggest change in sound for the least cash. So, a $1000+ pre amp is off the menu unless it has 8 channels.... There is no reason to have a dozen $100 mics and 6 high dollar pre-amps.

If, by "real studio" you mean one that hires out to the public and has over $1m invested in the facility, then, no. The only things they have that would make a significant difference is a good room, probably a good, varied colletcion of mics, and sometimes a good staff. Any more, the bling of big boards, mechanical rooms with Pro-Tools computers, and a bunch of trendy outboard gear doesn't make much of a difference. ,,,Unless you are selling it to a rap "artist" or are trying to get a trendy pop single out.

Well, that and they usually can hook you up with the local vice supply.





-tINY

Tiny you missed my point...
If you can not hear the difference, then end of story.
If you can not justify the price of a high end pre, then end of story.
I know several engineers that can not hear these differences and have been around for decade's this DOES NOT change the fact that many others can and choose a certain pre for a certain reason.
I have stated MANY times and recently that the mic and mic PLACEMENT is at the top of the list...recording wise, and this is why I designed and built a remote controlled mic positioner...
But comments like it's all about "Marketing" shows your limited exposure.
I sell Mics, speakers, cables, compressors ect ect... show me where I said you HAVE to have THIS MIC or its a waste of time.
Some mics are VERY expensive in my book, but to say they are NOT worth it or anyone who buys one is an idiot is another story...

And by the way; with out people that SELL gear what would you be recording with.
And I guess people that SELL guitars, amps, speakers ect would HAVE to be included...

[tINY]

Posted on low end forum, I still say that under $1000 is best spent on a variety mics if you record a lot of vocals. Especially if you have decent pre-amps and not a large collection of different mics.

Yes, I can hear a difference in pre-amps - most of the trendy ones I don't like, especially when the track gets compressed to hell. The "depth" or "sparkle" starts getting really wooly or scratchy. But there's no acounting for taste and you can get a lot of that type of sound out of transformer coupled LDCs (using a decent, clean preamp).





-tINY

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies and info.

I've been looking around and the only pres that fall into within my budget are :-

ART MPA Gold
Symetrix 528 and
FMR RNP and Summit Audio 2BA-221 at a real push!

I'm guessing that these are not really going to be a step up; rather more of a different tone?

[GordZilla]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

Thanks for the replies and info.

I've been looking around and the only pres that fall into within my budget are :-

ART MPA Gold
Symetrix 528 and
FMR RNP and Summit Audio 2BA-221 at a real push!

I'm guessing that these are not really going to be a step up; rather more of a different tone?

RNP is a VERY good value... two pretty dang good holes (with inserts) for under $500

[John Suitcase]

You might look into the new Daking single channel preamp. I haven't heard it, but I've heard Daking pre's and they are verry nice. It's selling for around $700. It would be a big step up from the Tampa or DMP. Another option would be a 1073 clone. Those are very common for recording vocals, they have a nice sort of flavor that works well with vocals, guitars, snare drum, etc.

I agree that mics make a bigger difference than preamps. The sound difference between a 414 and a Shure Green Bullet is pretty undeniable. BUT, if you're preamp isn't getting it done, then no matter what mic you use, it won't sound right. I find that many modern 'affordable' preamps do some weird things to transients (the signal seems uneven to me, like they're overly sensitive to input level variations) and they can add some unflattering distortions that make the signal sound kind of thin and (I hate trying to describe sound!) 'plastic-ey.'

Try one good solid state preamp, something with quality input and possibly output transformers. I think you'll be shocked to find that even your cheap mics sound a lot better.

[Stitch333]

+1 for mic and room treatment #1

Its all about laws of (sonic) diminishing returns.
IME the price point at which a preamp will noticeably improve the performance of a cheap mic, lets say the 58 already mentioned, is well above the price-point suggestions in this thread.

Like when people mention that VH '1984' was recorded entirely with SM58's, they fail to mention the API desk the mics were plugged into.
Same can be said for the 'Well, Bono and John Mayer use a SM7'...

9 times out of 10 I prefer a condenser to a dynamic for vocals.
Check out the Studio Projects mics: def bang for the buck.

You can always build a nice preamp or mod that MXL mic for pennies on the dollar, but that undermines the interest of people who make their living off of selling 'brand name' gear...

[dickiefunk]

The RNP and Daking would cost around £400+ each! I've seen the MPA Gold for £140!

At the moment the only way I can buy a new preamp is to sell the ones I have and use that money. I also have 3 Yamaha MLA-7's for sale but there is little interest in these in the UK.

I would be able to afford the MPA Gold if I sold my Tampa but that is it.

If I could sell my MLA-7's aswell then I could possibly stretch to a RNP, Blue Robbie or Audient Mico.

[A LaMere]

I'm gonna say "No, it isn't worth upgrading"

I read through all of the answers and I think a lot of people who've posted have some decent points. I'd think it was pointless replacing the DMP with something like the RNP... I'm not sure there's much of a difference there to be honest.

If you're going to sell all of your pre's and buy just one quality pre... I'd say get something that is really high quality... None of the pre's on your list would classify as dessert island pre's for most of us if we're honest.

Although, I've used and like a couple of them...
So I'd say, look to improve your chain at some other point. Especially if you aren't tracking much or stacking many tracks...

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies again. I've decided against getting a more expensive pre but (as on another thread) am more in need of a pre to compliment the sound of the DMP3.
I find the DMP3 to be a very impressive little preamp for the money and I like for stereo recording acoustic guitar and various other acoustic instruments.
The Tampa sounds very similar to the DMP3 to my ears but with a nice compressor. I don't need or use the compressor so am unsure if the Tampa is what I want.

I would like a smoother, warmer sounding preamp to compliment my DMP3 to record vocals.
I've seen the ART MPA Gold for an excellent price and am basically considering swapping my Tampa for the MPA Gold? I would then upgrade the tubes in it.

Would this be a good option? Are there any other better options in this price bracket? $500 max

[A LaMere]

Yep, that's a decent option... so that you can have two different sounding pres.

Another really good option on the cheap (and one that I might like better) is the Groove Tubes Brick. It's got a much softer, slower sound to it than the DMP.

Not sure how much the brick goes for exactly...

[changeng]

FWIW, i just bought a Summit 2ba-221 after working with a Rane MS1-b and a DMP3 - the Summit is WAAAYYYHAAY better - the Rane (which is ever-so-slightly cleaner than the DMP3) sounds distant somehow - the Summit puts the sound of a vocal up in your face - very clear, great definition and then when you dial in the tube, you get some neato grain - it can get a little spitty if you're not careful, but still it's lightyears in front of the Rane. i'm probably gonna put a vintage tube in it to see what that does.

Plus, the variable impedence allows you to dial in different tones in some mics - i also have a V67 and it does make a difference - I also have a Fathead ribbon and it makes a HUUUUGE difference - making the mic a keeper when i was just about to sell it. And it's pretty sweet on my oktavamod 219 as well - things are clearer and more exciting - dial in the tube and dare I say it, things get sparkly.

it also has a -20 pad and a variable high pass filter. it's built like a weapon and it's a great purchase at $450 with shipping used on Ebay.

The idea of different mics is a good one, however I haveta tell you, this preamp is making my current mics sound better.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by changeng

FWIW, i just bought a Summit 2ba-221 after working with a Rane MS1-b and a DMP3 - the Summit is WAAAYYYHAAY better - the Rane (which is ever-so-slightly cleaner than the DMP3) sounds distant somehow - the Summit puts the sound of a vocal up in your face - very clear, great definition and then when you dial in the tube, you get some neato grain - it can get a little spitty if you're not careful, but still it's lightyears in front of the Rane. i'm probably gonna put a vintage tube in it to see what that does.

Plus, the variable impedence allows you to dial in different tones in some mics - i also have a V67 and it does make a difference - I also have a Fathead ribbon and it makes a HUUUUGE difference - making the mic a keeper when i was just about to sell it. And it's pretty sweet on my oktavamod 219 as well - things are clearer and more exciting - dial in the tube and dare I say it, things get sparkly.

it also has a -20 pad and a variable high pass filter. it's built like a weapon and it's a great purchase at $450 with shipping used on Ebay.

The idea of different mics is a good one, however I haveta tell you, this preamp is making my current mics sound better.

I agree that a great preamp makes all of your mics sound better. I would invest in a pre and make all my mics sound better, and then buy some more mics next. That single channel Daking is a desert island pre, it is just so darn versatile and up front sounding(and a little aggresive in a good way). The difference between things sounding one dimensional and just OK together, and things stacking really nicely and sounding 3D is the mic pre!!!!!!