Is it worth it to buy a mid-level mic pre??

[I <3 The Beatle]

I am looking into getting a (or a few) channels of mic pres, but I don't know if I should spend $800 on 2 bricks when high-end land isn't too far away. For a few hundred more, for example, you could get a 2 channel Sebatron.

What do you guys think? Do the RNP and Brick really sit next to any high end pre? Is it "internet hype," or can these 2 units actually stand with the high end stuff? I love the idea of the transformer based Brick especially, but $400 is a lot of money to waste when I can put it towards a nicer unit...

Anyway, I just want to make an educated buy and not wind-up with something that's "good for the money," but not just effin "GOOD!" Thoughts??

[joelgtrnut]

It is better to save your money and get something that will last you for the next 10 to 30 years. Get a mic pre you won't need or ever want to replace. Eventually you would want to move up from the mid level stuff and get something high end. Why not just get it now and save the money. You will thank yourself in the long run. Quality is key. You can't replace a the value of a truely quality piece of gear.

I only use mid level stuff for triggering pres (on toms & kicks) when metal drummers bring in those massive sets that require like 13 mics.

[bradb]

I have no experience with the Brick. But I'd recommend the Hamptone stuff at your price level. The JFET kit is $600 and the tube kit is $700 (? I dont' remember?) I built the Hamptone tube and 4 (soon 6) channels of the Seventh Circle stuff, N72 and A12.

All of these things sound incredible. You could also go with the Sytek which is 4 channels of clean pres. Thats about $800.

[tINY]

The internet hype is that the "high-end" mic pre-amps sound so much better than the mid-priced stuff.

Largely, you are paying more for the build quality. This is important if you expect to use the gear several days every week for the next several years for different clients. The high-end stuff tends to be easier to perforrm maintenence on, too. Again, this is only important on a mic pre that gets it's knobs constantly tweeked or is exposed to a smoky control room.



-tINY

[I <3 The Beatle]

Thanks for the responses guys, and keep them coming .

I am still undecided honestly, it just seems that the mid-level $500esque price range is an akward price point. Most of the products I've used (Eureka, Focusrite stuff, etc. etc.) don't seem to be much of an improvement over the stock pres in nicely designed interfaces.

However, based on my readings in Gearslutz and several other forums it also seems that there are some gems in this range (The Brick, RNP, and Sytek come to mind), that are at least worth taking a look at. Sometimes it is hard to seperate bogus claims from fact on internet forums...

Anyone with these units that would care to share their experiences with them or maybe some sound clips would be great

[RoundBadge]

If you have the resources,spend some time borrowing,renting or buying/returning some good stuff[API,Neve,GR,Chandler,Daking,etc,etc] and compare.then you'll know for yourself..Me personally ,I'd really wait and get something good,but only after I'd listened to it and others as well.15 years ago there weren't a fraction of the choices avialable today,especially in the mid range.I bought a groove tubes tube pre back then,very average sounding[single channel for 1500 bucks]not having a clue that I couldve gotten a neve or some telefunkens for around the same $,my best friend went and got 2 neve 1073's for about a grand apiece[seemed like a lot back then,who woulda knew where that was going!] and he still uses them every day.

[I <3 The Beatle]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

If you have the resources,spend some time borrowing,renting or buying/returning some good stuff[API,Neve,GR,Chandler,Daking,etc,etc] and compare.then you'll know for yourself..Me personally ,I'd really wait and get something good,but only after I'd listened to it and others as well.15 years ago there weren't a fraction of the choices avialable today,especially in the mid range.I bought a groove tubes tube pre back then,very average sounding[single channel for 1500 bucks]not having a clue that I couldve gotten a neve or some telefunkens for around the same $,my best friend went and got 2 neve 1073's for about a grand apiece[seemed like a lot back then,who woulda knew where that was going!] and he still uses them every day.

The more I think about it, the more I think you are right. If I get a deal on "The Brick," I might pick one up and sell it after a few months for the same price I bought it for....we'll see. I kind of need something to at least hold me over..

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by tINY

The internet hype is that the "high-end" mic pre-amps sound so much better than the mid-priced stuff.

Largely, you are paying more for the build quality. This is important if you expect to use the gear several days every week for the next several years for different clients. The high-end stuff tends to be easier to perforrm maintenence on, too. Again, this is only important on a mic pre that gets it's knobs constantly tweeked or is exposed to a smoky control room.



-tINY

Ditto. An RNP is not going to make, nor break a recording. Either will a Pendulum, etc that is 6 times the cost.

Everyone seems to be looking for a scapegoat at one stage or another, usually Mic preamps but more commonly converters as to why there recordings sound bad... but usually its the material or the engineering skills.

[I <3 The Beatle]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

Ditto. An RNP is not going to make, nor break a recording. Either will a Pendulum, etc that is 6 times the cost.

Everyone seems to be looking for a scapegoat at one stage or another, usually Mic preamps but more commonly converters as to why there recordings sound bad... but usually its the material or the engineering skills.

I don't think this was directed at me, so I take no offense. However, let me just say I have NO outboard pres, and I certainly do not think buying a nice set of pres is going to help win me a grammy. But, I have used nicer pres and I know what they bring to the table. They obviously are not going to make or break any of my recordings.

BTW, I think it's so foolish when people brand new to recording buy expensive mic pres when they don't even have decent instruments to record.....or a decent room to record them in. It makes a whole lot of sense to own a 2 channel GR preamp when you're recording practice amps and squiers!

[I <3 The Beatle]

Originally Posted by pegleg

Since the Sytek pres were mentioned, I'd like the add that IMO they're as good as things twice their price (partially because you're buying direct from the manufacturer). I have 8 channels which go through an AD16x.

The only thing to consider is the lack of a pad - so buy a few Shure A15AS in-line pads.

Otherwise, they're a really solid pre - build quality and sonically.

Sounds cool, I'm definetly going to have to audition these!

[Dot]

Originally Posted by tINY

The internet hype is that the "high-end" mic pre-amps sound so much better than the mid-priced stuff.

Largely, you are paying more for the build quality. This is important if you expect to use the gear several days every week for the next several years for different clients. The high-end stuff tends to be easier to perforrm maintenence on, too. Again, this is only important on a mic pre that gets it's knobs constantly tweeked or is exposed to a smoky control room.

tINY, I don't know what mid-level and/or high-end pres you've used.... Largely, you are paying more for the sound. Yes, of course the build quality and product longevity is there as well – but it's about sonic performance. Mid-level pres in most cases offer little over good low-end pres – like the M-Audio DMP3 and Rane MS 1b. And mid-level pres can't touch the performance of the high-end stuff. Another big rip-off about mid-level pres around the $500-$600 range is that when you get into multi-channel high-end pres you'll see that many of them actually run right around $500 per channel!

For example –– API 512C, John Hardy M-1, Millennia HV-3 –– all those run around $500 per channel when purchased in module form for multi-channel frames. Any of those outperform the stand-alone mid-level pres and channel strips in every conceivable way.

I've been ranting some about this at...

Don't waste your $ on "mid-level" mic pres and channel strips
http://studioforums.com/eve/ubb.x/a/...1/m/9811058711

[sloanfiske]

Sytek do a great job, usually can get 4 pres for 800 or so, with a personal guarantee from the man who built it. I like them quite a bit. Clean, like a Neotek. Almost the same thing really, just no eq.

OSA are great pre's for the buck and fit in an API lunchbox...same goes for Purple.

and a big vote goes for finding an API lunchbox used for a couple hundred bucks then everytime you have a bit of cash, buy a new API/OSA/Purple pre.

You'll have a good spread in no time.

Also, you can find the Demeter VTMP-2 (2 channel Tube mic pre) at a good price used every once in a while. I think I paid 600 for mine and use it all the time.

Anthony

[simonv]

I second was Ziggy!! said. A preamp won't make or break a recording.

A month ago, I had some money to spend and after reading many Forums, I really started to believe that an RNP would be the solution to all my sound problems.

So I bought an RNP. I got home, plugged it in. And I swear, I played with it for about 15 hours, and never noticed a difference between the RNP and the preamp of my 90$ Behringer board. (I noticed a bit more highs while recording a direct acoustic guitar signal, but nothing an EQ can't do).

I mix on HR-824s, so I can rely on what I hear. And I had used many different mics to do my tests. The only step to check was my AD conversion. I was using an Audiophile USB card! (Which is a 175$ card).

I had to learn it the hard way, but I realised that the preamp really wasn't the weekest part of my chain right now. I returned the RNP, and bought an RME Fireface.

Now, with the fireface, I probably would see a difference between two preamps if I did tests, because it sounds GOOD.

From now on, I will never buy mid-range gear again. I will save my money and upgrade in 2000$ steps, instead of 500$.

Cheers

[Dot]

Originally Posted by simvez

I second was Ziggy!! said. A preamp won't make or break a recording.

A month ago, I had some money to spend and after reading many Forums, I really started to believe that an RNP would be the solution to all my sound problems.

So I bought an RNP. I got home, plugged it in. And I swear, I played with it for about 15 hours, and never noticed a difference between the RNP and the preamp of my 90$ Behringer board. (I noticed a bit more highs while recording a direct acoustic guitar signal, but nothing an EQ can't do).

I mix on HR-824s, so I can rely on what I hear. And I had used many different mics to do my tests. The only step to check was my AD conversion. I was using an Audiophile USB card! (Which is a 175$ card).

The AD card could go a long way in explaing why you really didn't hear a difference between an RNP and a Behringer mixer.

But again, I'm not sticking up for the mid-level pres. There are several very inexpensive mic preamps that are very good. So, I'm not telling people to run out and get high-end pres. Just either to use good inexpensive pres – which in many cases can more than do the job. Or look into some of the higher-end pres - provided you have the rest of your system in order – mics, room acoustics, monitors, AD converters. It's the $500ish mid-level pres and channel strips I think are a waste of money.

[tony666]

Originally Posted by Dot

The AD card could go a long way in explaing why you really didn't hear a difference between an RNP and a Behringer mixer.

Could you notice the difference between 2 very linear preamps without something like an audio precision analyser? I can hardly imagine one could so just by hearing those preamps?

[Dot]

Originally Posted by tony666

Could you notice the difference between 2 very linear preamps without something like an audio precision analyser? I can hardly imagine one could so just by hearing those preamps?

Sure you could - as long as the rest of the chain and monitoring system was up to snuff. You don't need any precision analyers to tell the difference between the sonics of two different mics pres. Healthy, educated ears and brain are more than enough. There is a distinct difference between the sound of Behringer console pres and an RNP.

[joelgtrnut]

Where you hear a huge difference between pres is in the way they stack up in a recording. That is where something high end really kicks the snot out of the mid range stuff imho.

For example:
I just got 2 channels of BAE 312s tuesday. As a test, I tracked a quick 30 seconds of music with several instruments on each of my triggering pres (M audio octane, Presonus m80). Then I did it on my BAE 312s.

On the individual sounds, I could hear a nice difference. The Averill 312 made me want to buy a whole rack of them, where as I just wanted to throw the octane and m80 up on ebay. The BAE really made things sound that much better.

When I put up a quick mix, the difference was really obvious. The quality pre's just brought everything to a whole new level of sonics that the cheaper stuff couldn't touch.

Again, my problem with the mid level stuff is that eventually you are going to replace it (Unless you are one of those true project studio people that have no intention of doing things professionally). So why not just do it right the first time.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by joelgtrnut

Again, my problem with the mid level stuff is that eventually you are going to replace it (Unless you are one of those true project studio people that have no intention of doing things professionally). So why not just do it right the first time.

It could be the 3x price difference between, say, a focusrite and a GML....

The difference you hear is the "quickness". The high-end units are going to tend to be more forgiving when you only take 10 seconds to set yourl levels. Again, if you are running a comercial studio, this is something to consider, but if you have a home studio, it's not as big a deal to take 5 minutes to make sure your gain is set optimally.....



-tINY

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by tINY

It could be the 3x price difference between, say, a focusrite and a GML....

The difference you hear is the "quickness". The high-end units are going to tend to be more forgiving when you only take 10 seconds to set yourl levels. Again, if you are running a comercial studio, this is something to consider, but if you have a home studio, it's not as big a deal to take 5 minutes to make sure your gain is set optimally.....



-tINY

What??!Quickness?No,I don't think so.. the hi end stuff actually sounds better

[pan60]

sounds better

[tINY]

"Quickness" in the "I tossed down a few quick tracks" sense... That doesn't sound like someone who is carefully setting gains.

But that's what you get for a lot more money - a more forgiving pre-amp. The noise floor may be a little lower and it degrades more gracefully when overdriven. If the gain is not set right, it can sound a lot better.

If you don't know what you are doing, or don't have time to double-check the levels, then get 2 or 3 channels of expensive eye candy for the price of 8 or more decent, workable pre-amps.

95% of people who listen to the recording won't be able to tell anyway and most of the other 5% won't care that much. Look at what people use for playback....



-tINY

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by tINY

"Quickness" in the "I tossed down a few quick tracks" sense... That doesn't sound like someone who is carefully setting gains.

But that's what you get for a lot more money - a more forgiving pre-amp. The noise floor may be a little lower and it degrades more gracefully when overdriven. If the gain is not set right, it can sound a lot better.

If you don't know what you are doing, or don't have time to double-check the levels, then get 2 or 3 channels of expensive eye candy for the price of 8 or more decent, workable pre-amps.

95% of people who listen to the recording won't be able to tell anyway and most of the other 5% won't care that much. Look at what people use for playback....



-tINY

95% of the people I record for actually do care and can tell the difference as well.
..my job is to care as well..and to have the right tools for the job.
Thats part of the reason I get hired agian.
I guess we just live in different worlds my friend..
If I shared your attitude I'd be out of a job..
I'm outta here
..have fun

[tINY]

Actually, I like doing the best I can. Even if only a few people apreciate it.

But, there is a dimminishing returns effect on most gear. The differences in mic pre-amps is very little from the $1k to the $3k, sonically (for heavy usage, it might be a different story). You are WAY better off to take the $2k and buy some other mics, which will make a bigger difference.

I'm happy for you that you do private recordings for individuals with high-end stereo systems, Badge. Must be nice not to have to record for comercial interests or worry about how something sounds on FM or IPOD...

But this is Low End theory. Take your elitist attitude back to your Hollywierd Utopia. Let us commoners get back to real issues.



-tINY

[cominginsecond]

The more I play with my mid-level pres (Summit 2BA-221, Groove Tubes Brick, RNP) the more I can tell a signficant difference between them and my low-level pres (Joe Meek ThreeQ, ART DPS II). It's more than worth it, if that's all you can afford, to get some mid-level pres.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by tINY

I'm happy for you that you do private recordings for individuals with high-end stereo systems, Badge. Must be nice not to have to record for comercial interests or worry about how something sounds on FM or IPOD...





-tINY

LOL... Love it!.We just got a great laugh outta that one ...Actually made my day!
Thanks tINY ... good luck

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by pegleg

Since the Sytek pres were mentioned, I'd like the add that IMO they're as good as things twice their price (partially because you're buying direct from the manufacturer). I have 8 channels which go through an AD16x.

The only thing to consider is the lack of a pad - so buy a few Shure A15AS in-line pads.

Otherwise, they're a really solid pre - build quality and sonically.

Yes, I used pads with the Sytek as well. But I have to disagree. I had the Sytek for a while and moved up to Hardy and Millennia. The Sytek is not as good. I think it is very good for the money and a step up from many mixer preamps, but there is a difference going to pre's that are twice as much. Or maybe I just picked the right pre's to move up to.

[cominginsecond]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Yes, I used pads with the Sytek as well. But I have to disagree. I had the Sytek for a while and moved up to Hardy and Millennia. The Sytek is not as good. I think it is very good for the money and a step up from many mixer preamps, but there is a difference going to pre's that are twice as much. Or maybe I just picked the right pre's to move up to.

Per channel the Hardy and Millenia are almost 4 times as much, though, right?

[Sounds Great]

I bought the 8 channel Millennia, used for about 3000.

8 channels of Sytek would be about 1700 so that is more than half. Even new the HV3D-8 is under 4 grand I think. The M1 is a bit more because you can't get 8 channels in one unit. Or I probably would have.

[I <3 The Beatle]

I'm very curious about these Syteks..unfortunately it would have to be a blind buy because I can't audition them and I don't believe there's a return policy to my knowledge.

Anyone care to comment on the Burr Brown op amp option?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by I <3 The Beatle

I'm very curious about these Syteks..unfortunately it would have to be a blind buy because I can't audition them and I don't believe there's a return policy to my knowledge.

Anyone care to comment on the Burr Brown op amp option?

I found a little more clarity on the standard channels. A little more "balls" on the Burr Brown channels. Both have their place.