Gear Shopping... Opinions Sought

[Lunatic]

Howdy 'Slutz,

We're about to open our studio (http://www.evergroove.com) and are starting to look at gear acquisition. Our budget is $10k and I was hoping to get some recommendations from you guys. We already have some basic stuff which I'll now list:

Mixer:
* Soundcraft 6000 (30 input, 24 buss)

Mics:
* Josephson C42 (pair)
* Sennheiser MD421 (pair)
* Shure SM57 and SM58
* Groove Tubes AM31 (pair)
* Groove Tubes MD1 (original model... cool mic!)
* BLUE Baby Bottle
* MXL V69

Pres:
* Sytek MPX-4Aii
* Telefunken v672 and v676a (a pair of each. decidiing which to get racked! any opinions on these would be helpful)
* Digi 002r pres (not really worth using but mentioned anyway)

Recorder:
* ProTools LE 6.4 via Digi 002r
* Cubase SX 2

Monitors:
* Tannoy System 15DMT

At the moment, my though is to concentrate on the front end and get some more mics and some more pres (Neumanns, Soundelux? Focusrite ISA 428?). There is also outboard to consider as we plan on mixing outside the box. We also still need to decide if we'll use the 002r plus another 8 channels of AD or get something like a MOTU 24i/o or a pair of MOTU HD192's. We had thought to find a way to score a PtoTools HD rig but without a solid front end it seemed kind of pointless.

The room acoustics need not be included in this. That is taken care of. We hired a designer and that was a completely different budget all together. Let's just say that I have become very skilled in working with 2" ridged insulation

Cabling is also already purchased and not apart of this budget.

Most of the bands in the area are college jam bands, blugrass (good ones too!), punk, nu-metal, acoustic rock, and straight rock 'n' roll. We also get the occassional single vocalist or acoustic singer/songwriter.

Thoughts?

Anyways, sorry for the long post and thanks for your time!

Peace,
Brad

[I play in a ban]

Looks like for a "Low End" rig, you're doin pretty damn good!

Why not pick up a Rode NTK...good on lots of sources.. hand drums, percussion, acoustic guitar, male vocals. Oddly enough it can sometimes be too bright, but it sounds a lot more expensive than the $500 price tag IMHO.


And although this isn't a mic or preamp..why not a few Powercores and/or UAD-1's?

Also, I suggest you post this in high end as well to get some more ideas.

BTW..checked out construction pics, you must be really excited..fun stuff

--- Bill

[Lunatic]

Bill,

Well... I think we may be riding the line between high end and low end. Where's the mid-end forum ?! (kidding)

Anyways, more than one person has had good things to say about the NTK. I'll have to check it out! We do have a UAD-1 card. I forgot to mention it.

Thanks for your input and thanks for checking out our site. We are getting excited although the credit card is aching

If this post is in the wrong place I'd be happy to repost it in high end.

Thanks!
-Brad

[I play in a ban]

Originally Posted by Lunatic

Bill,

Well... I think we may be riding the line between high end and low end. Where's the mid-end forum ?! (kidding)

No, you're good here! Hopefully some people with more gear than I have will pop in and help out. These guys are really good at finding gear that will do good things for not a lot of cash..

If I were you I would also post in high end to get a wider variety of suggestions (Great River, API, Neumann, etc. etc.). Then get a few expensive units, and compliment those with some nicer inexpensive units and you're good to go. Your rig is already good enough to do great things, and this extra 10k should take you to the next level.

Good luck with the studio..keep us updated.

---Bill

[Lunatic]

Bill, thanks again for your input! I'll let the thread hang out here a bit longer before going to 'High End'.

Of course, just because we have a $10k budget doesn't mean we have to spend it. We could just add a nice mic and preamp and open the doors with what we got.

Any interface recommedations? Should we just run with the 002r and an additional 8 channel of AD/DA?

Thoughts?

Peace,
Brad

[nbutter]

here are a few ideas -

- more mics!! let's say you've got a drummer with a big kit, 2 guitarists (with 2 cabs each), a bass player, a singer, and keys -- the basic lineup -- do you have enough mics for all that?? doesn't look like it to me...maybe just barely. How bout when the fiddler, or the sax player, or the percussionist shows up? Others here will give you good specific suggestions, or just do some searching - the GS archives are amazing.

- headphone amp and plenty of headphones -- gotta make sure all the above folks can hear themselves and their brethren. It's nice if they can each have different levels.

- at least one cheep f/x unit so that you NEVER send a vocal to a singer without a little verb on it. Also - get Lots Of Candles, and always use them for vocal sessions.

- COMPRESSORS!!! if you're tracking everything from bluegrass to punk, you're gonna have a lot of level to manage. get, i dunno, at least 10 channels of compression?? Again, use the archives for help... but plan on at least getting a few RNCs...

Seems like these would be basics - maybe they're already covered or factored into your thinking - but I would want all of the above before even opening the doors.

Then I would think about the following:

- Motu 192 should be a lot better sounding than the 002 as far as A/D

- I don't see why the Motu wouldn't be fine for D/A as well... but you'll find Slutz who will swear by getting an even better unit (say, Benchmark DAC-1) so you can really hear what's happening inside the box. (I use a Metric Halo 2882 in both directions).

- If you've got a bunch of stuff going on digitally in different boxes made by different folks, it might be a good idea to get a master clock so they all stay in sync. Search for "Big Ben" to see what your options might be.

- Orban 622 stereo Eq so you can EQ on the way in from your outboard pres

- if you aren't monitoring through the board, get a control room box that will let you attenuate and mute your monitor levels. I like my SM Pro Audio Mpatch, and it's pretty cheep.

- make sure you have more little doohickeys than you think you need: passive DI's, active DI's, line splitters, phase flipping thingys (cables or boxes or plugs), ground lift thingys (ditto), etc. Be ready for RCA, TS, TRS, XLR, 1/8", mono, stereo, balanced, unbalanced, +4, -10, oh my! And a BIG GUITAR TUNER, too!

Now the disclaimer: I've never run a live studio... but i've spent a decent amount of time in 'em..(and have spent way more time than i should here on GS!)... so of course take everything with two grains of salt and YMMV!!!

Have a great time!!! Your project is very exciting and I wish you success!

[XHipHop]

i'm sorry if i'm stating the obvious, but the motu will NOT work with protools. it is a nice sounding box though. Check out some apogee action if you need more converters to chain off your 002.

[Lunatic]

Yep... we know that part about ProTools and MOTU hardware. We're just exploring all options. I've been using Cubase for a while now and am more comfortable with that. There was an idea to track into Cubase unless the client spcifically asks for ProTools. That's where the 002r would come again. Then again... we have it why not use it, eh?

Peace,
Brad

[Lunatic]

nbutter: Great ideas! I'm researching them now...

Thanks again,
Brad

[Will]

You would def need some compressors for tracking, the RNC seems to have alot of fans. I might be tempted to get something really nice like a distressor...

You will also need to sort out the foldback for the band, i'd probably get an old power amp and use this for either 2 mono sends or 1 stereo send, and then some cans (if your going for Beyer DT100's spend a little extra and get the DT150's because they are alot better).

Are you considering buying guitar amps/drums etc?? Alot of the smaller bands I work with either have cheap nasty gear or some members with no gear at all, and having a nice guitar/bass amp etc goes a long way to solving any problems. A guitar tuner as nbutter says is a bit of a must, as are DI's.

Will.

[nbutter]

there's a guy in the classifieds selling off a bunch of stuff b/c of a divorce (too bad!), including a bunch of RNC's for $135 each - get 'em! - and a furman headphone system -- you might want that, too.

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=31808

One thing I saw on re-reading your post was that you are planning to mix outside the box -- you will definitely need reverbs -- he's got a Kurzweil rumour for $450 and I would grab that as well.

[Lunatic]

I grabbed the Furman. Thanks for the tip!

Thanks everyone who has replied thus far.

-Brad

[warhead]

I would concentrate on mics mics mics. You seem set with a small variety of preamps which is great.

I don't see a killer LDC.

I don't see any omni mics.

I don't see enough mics to take care of a drum kit.

I don't see a ribbon.

I would maybe suggest looking at:

ADK TT: Killer LDC especially for less than $1k. Also consider the AT4060. Just about any singer could walk up to these mics and sound good with very little effort.

The Avenson STO-2's are awesome natural omnis. Great room mics, really great for anything you want to sound like it sounds right where you're standing.

The E/V ND468 are great tom mics, and double as great cab mics for extremely tight sounding tracks. They give you a pretty focused tight sound (hypercardioid) and have very little bleed. They excel on drums and guitar cabs and some vocals.

The AEA R92 is the latest offering from Wes Dooley...and they rock! You simply cannot beat a ribbon 95% of the time for guitar cab mic'ing and it's a great natural acoustic guitar sound etc. Makes a great vocal mic for different flavor there as well. Drums get a nice big old school sound as well. The figure 8 pattern is a nice addition to your collection as well. AEA ribbons take EQ exceptionally well also.

You may be surprised how much it costs you to cable up the room as well, or have you figured that in already to your $10k available? Also, room treatments etc can rack up quick.

Do you plan on mixing in the box? If not, you may want to explore some great stereo eq's and compressors that will offer you versatility at mixdown on the stereo buss.

[Lunatic]

All,

I should point out that it will be me and another guy pooling our resources. He has a handful of good mics; ribbons, a 421, a RE20, Earthworks, etc, as well as a pair of distressors, RNCs, and some DBX 163x'es. I should have originally included that information. My bad :-|

Warren, you are right though. He and I both agree that we need a couple more misc to round out the collection. The ADK sounds like a great option. We are also considering a Blueberry and a pair of 414s.

The cabling and rooms treatments are a completely different budget. Seriously. I have spent the past couple weekends and some weeknights installing all the ridgid insulation we bought. The cabling is already in the walls too thumbsup

I'll take a look at the mics you recommended!

Thanks again,
Brad

[Jules]

Especially with the updated gear list I think you have enough to get on with but have a serious lacking in the converter area... I feel this should be a priority..

How about this shopping list?

1 x Motu 2408 mk3
http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudi...8mk3rp1000.jpg

2 x Apogee Rosestta 800's
http://apogeedigital.com/products/rosetta800.php

1 x Laptop computer with wiereless internet base station.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That will give you 4 very usable DAW configurations

1) 24 i/o with Cubase / MOTU

2) 16 i/o with PT / 002

3) Do quality conversion overdubs (or 16 io backing tracks) with the MOTU / 1 x Rosetta 800 rig in the main studio....

4) AND (with the use of a laptop) you could be doing - quality conversion overdubs (or 16 io backing tracks) via 002 and 1 x Rosetta 800 in a 2nd location / live area / rec room / engineers appartment.../ band practice room / gig...

+ Use the laptop for client / studio internet connection / CD burning / Track compilation / lable printing / admin

This turns you one studio into two... A main A room rig + a B room / remote set up..

+ thats gets you 2 FREE stereo mic pre's in a special deal Apogee are doing!

http://apogeedigital.com/products/minimp_deal.php

[DrDeltaM]

Some cool advice there thumbsup

Maybe swap the Motu 2408mkIII for an RME Fireface. You'll loose one ADAT port (3 on Motu, 2 on Fireface), but the convertors in the Fireface are a step better. And since it's firewire, you could even decide to take this one on the go as well

[Henchman]

I would definitely get some UAD-1 Cards for mixing.

[Lunatic]

Woah... guys... awesome advice! Jules, a setup like that hadn't occurred to me and seems a great way to go. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be buying soon enough. It looks like the Apogee deal is only through May 1st. We'll see though!

As for the Fireface, it's a good idea but we are a little leary of firewire as a primary interface. During our last project we tried a firewire interface and hard drive. Once we had about 16 tracks playing back and trying to do overdubs at the same time and we were getting random clicks in the recorded audio. No amount of tweaking, etc, could help us. As soon as we moved the project to an internal IDE drive the problem was solved. So, the firewire worked for sending and reciving audio at that point and yeah... our limitation probably was the hard drive but it still scares us now. I really want this system to be stable. No glitches anywhere - if possible.

Anyone using the Fireface and pushing it hard?

Peace,
Brad

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Lunatic

Anyone using the Fireface and pushing it hard?

I'm using a Fireface (latency setting 128 samples) myself. I didn't have problems with it yet. Playing back like 30 audiotracks (all from LaCie firewire drive) while running a few I/O loops in realtime (similar to recording overdubs datawise) works great when combined with +60 plugins, a few chatrooms, a few Safari windows, Mail, iTunes, ... and constantly switching between between all those

[rbaker]

You asked about v672s...

I have some that I had racked by Oliver @ AMI-TAB. I have been loving them. I don't know much about the v676a other than what I just read about them on the marquette site.

As far as the v672's go, do you already have the modules? I got mine on ebay and lucked out that they were the all discrete version (many of the ones on ebay aren't, and you can't tell because the only picture shown is with the cover on it) If you're not sure, if you send me a picture I think I can tell you.

If you read what dave marquette says about the v672's I think he nailed it right on. The top end is very smooth and open (vocals sit very well) and the low frequencies are just great. I've never heard anyone say anything about using it on kick but if I used it for nothing but that, it would be worth it alone. (It is my main pre for vocals, bass, acoustic guitar as well) Also it seems to work really well with the folcrom for the same reasons. (nice highs and phat lows)

[HighKing]

I am going to spat and kicked on for this, but I'll be the one dissenting voice and say: with $10,000 --- another option may be: don't bother opening up a studio.

Honestly, I don't mean to stifle your ambitions or be a diehard pessimist, but in the realm of recording---10K is nothing.

If you're dead-set on doing this: the most important thing is the room. I know you said you have this taken care of---but make sure you *really* do.

Then, looking at your list, you're very weak on: mics, pres, and monitoring.

I would get something like a Soundelux U195 (sort of a 57 for the LDC world), I'd get some of lunchbox kit from API or OSA and fill it w/ Neve and API clones (get as many channels as you can afford). Then, I'd get more monitors (you should have one really solid pair, and 2-3 other pairs). After that, you need even more mics.

Good luck whatever you decide to do!

[Will]

I have heard a similar story about pop's and clicks when using firewire devices, but i have been told that it is down to the buffer size you are using (on low buffer settings you get the clicks but on higher settings you don't).

I personally use a 002 on a G4 with lacie firewire drives and find that it isn't happy unless the buffer is right up... but i have been told that it is rock solid at low buffer speeds on a G5...

Will.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by HighKing

I am going to spat and kicked on for this, but I'll be the one dissenting voice and say: with $10,000 --- another option may be: don't bother opening up a studio.

Honestly, I don't mean to stifle your ambitions or be a diehard pessimist, but in the realm of recording---10K is nothing.

That's the beautiful thing about todays situation. You can do almost anything a much more expensive studio can on a much smaller budget. People are going to listen to it on FM or IPOD anyway, so 95% of the sound quaility comming out of the latest high-budget studios is more than adequate (with most of todays styles, 60% would do it...).

Audio equipment is like arms: When the dominant technology is cheap and easy to use, the common people have a chance, when it's expensive or hard to use, tyranny (or explotation) runs rampant. - thank you Mr Orwell



-tINY

[rbaker]

Originally Posted by Will

I have heard a similar story about pop's and clicks when using firewire devices, but i have been told that it is down to the buffer size you are using (on low buffer settings you get the clicks but on higher settings you don't).

I personally use a 002 on a G4 with lacie firewire drives and find that it isn't happy unless the buffer is right up... but i have been told that it is rock solid at low buffer speeds on a G5...

Will.

With a digi002/r you shouldn't have clicks and pops on a low buffer, and you definitely don't need a g5 to record at 128. (You'll get clicks and pops in protools if you're using a digital in without the clock sync set correctly)

I'm a pc guy but I had a powerbook (g4) for a little and it could run all 32 tracks on 128 buffer without any problems and easily record 16 tracks at 128. Totally rock solid. Also keep in mind this was a 12" powerbook with no cardbus slot---so there was one onboard firewire port, daisy chaining from the laptop to the hard drive to the digi002r.

In non-protools apps, maybe when it can't keep up you'll hear clicks and pops. (I think nuendo does that) Protools will stop and tell you whats going on.

[HighKing]

Originally Posted by tINY

That's the beautiful thing about todays situation. You can do almost anything a much more expensive studio can on a much smaller budget. People are going to listen to it on FM or IPOD anyway, so 95% of the sound quaility comming out of the latest high-budget studios is more than adequate (with most of todays styles, 60% would do it...).

Audio equipment is like arms: When the dominant technology is cheap and easy to use, the common people have a chance, when it's expensive or hard to use, tyranny (or explotation) runs rampant. - thank you Mr Orwell



-tINY

Eh. I can't say I share your optimism.

You're right: one can make quality, even professional recordings on a small budget...especially if one has the skill and the ears for it.

Given that, though, there is a *reason* that certain things are well, expensive. And it's because they sound better.

[Lunatic]

DrDeltam... sounds great! We'll put the Fireface on the list and check it out thumbsup

RBaker... funny, I just got in contact with Oliver about getting 'em racked. The price seems reasonable and I have yet to hear anything bad about his work.

Thanks everyone! The responses are fantastic. This is the very reason I love this board. There are so many people willing to help and lend an idea or opinion.

Peace,
Brad