Apogee Rosetta 800 vs RME Fireface

[Braker]

Hi,

I hope I'm posting at the right section.

I would love to hear any advice regarding the difference in sound quality between the Apogee Rosetta 800 and the RME Fireface.

I'll explain my use of the convertor: I'm a DJ who is used to playing vinyl for the last 13 years. Recently I switched to the digital domain DJing with a laptop running Ableton Live, however I am greatly concerned about the sound issues since I love the warmth of my vinyl collection and hate to loose that.

At the moment I'm using my RME RPM (similar to the RME Multiface) to record my vinyl (not using the RPM phono preamps which I didn't like, but instead using the phono preamps on my old Numark DJ mixer which sound very warm IMO) onto my computer and than play it back using Ableton Live.

Although I retain some of the warmth and three dimentional sound of my vinyl that way, still some is obviously lost.

Even though I think I have a very sensitive pair of ears with regarding to sound quality and timbre, I have to admit that the difference between 44.1kHz to 96kHz recording of the vinyl (that's the maximum with my RME) is hardly noticable. And while the difference between 16bit and 24bit is more apparent (especially in the low end), it is still not as dramatic as I would have hoped.

Anyhow, I'm considering an upgrade. Also because of the quality of the convertor and the resolution and also because I realised I need at least 4 stereo outputs. That's because of the difference between digital summing and going into one or two analog channels on my DJ mixer (playing 4 layers from my software) and between sending 4 individual outputs into 4 different channels on the DJ mixer and doing analog summing. To my ears the difference is huge, not to mention the difference between EQing the different layers using my software EQ or EQing them using my analog mixer 4 different EQ strips - again a huge difference.

I am not an expert in convertors but from what I have checked so far it seems that two viable options for me are the RME Fireface and the Apogee Rosetta 800.

So - having in mind that I only need this for recording my vinyl collection and than playing back using Ableton Live on my laptop (which has Firewire), and that playback will be maximum 4 outputs at the same time: Do you think these are the units for me and which one sounds better (forget about the money issue for the moment, I want to know what will sound best)?

Also, do you think the higher resolution of 192kHz might help me retain more of what I like in my original vinyl?

Thanks alot and sorry for the long post, any opinions will be welcomed.

Braker

[Sanchez]

Before you get anywhere near even thinking about dropping that much money on either of those units or wondering about sampling rates you HAVE to look at the rest of your recording chain if FIDELITY is what you want. Namely your turntable, cartridge, preamp and cable combination. Been djing for a similar amount of time as you and also recording vinyl for use in Ableton/Traktor/Final Scratch for the past couple of years and getting pretty darn good results. If you want to do the job properly (and it looks like you do) then you're best off making a small dedicated vinyl recording setup. Cartridge/stylus:dj carts., Ortofon Concordes, whatever are not up to the job, they're built to track well, be loud and sound good in a club, hi-fi they are not. Drop $200 or so and get a dedicated hi-fi cart that weighs in around 1.5g in the tracking dept. Before you put the needle to the record, make sure you re-aligned and properly balanced counterwights etc...presuming you may be using a 1200 turntable, not ideal, but not as significant in the chain as it stands as other elements.
Pre-amp-wise, Numark? No offence and with all due respect, but the Numark has to go, it's super budget gear and will seriously not do Apogee/RME any justice whatsoever. Using a dj mixer to record is a bad idea full stop unless you're looking at higher end Allen and Heath gear, you've all that unnecessary eq stuff, crossfaders etc etc. Nearly doubtless you have a hi-fi amp at home, even the $200 one in your front room will have a phono input-go direct into this from your turntable and then right back out of the tape rec out or similar and into your audio interface.
Whatever you use to record, make sure you have a good healthy signal, do NOT clip it, avoid processing your original recording-if you must and think you can do better than the original, practice on a copy and be prepared for some surprises if you try playing your eq-d 'remasters' out.
What else....a decent record cleaner, a record weight/stabiliser, these things all help if you're serious about archiving your stuff. Never mind going Apogee/RME Fireface for this, buy a Motu 828 mk2 and use what you save on a decent cartridge and even a dedicated amp...you'll STILL be saving $$ and will be AMAZED at the quality compared with what you would have got going DJ cart./Numark into RME etc., remember your system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain and you're aiming for fidelity ie a faithful copy of the original record over 'warmth'.
Like I said, not being a smart-arse here, just passing on what I found/deduced after spending plenty time researching beforehand.
Hope it helps
S

[Braker]

Hi Sanchez,

Thanks for your detailed reply which was very helpfull,

First regarding the Numark: I am aware that Numark don't have much of a name, but still have to say that my specific unit (PPD DM1835X) has a really nice warm full sound - miles better than the Pioneer mixers for instanse, and miles better than many other Numark mixers I've heard. However I am also thinking of upgrading my DJ mixer to either Allen & Heath or Rane rotary or maybe even a Urie - I'm checking these options now. (Do you have a preference here?)

I have checked the phono preamps on my RME RPM convertor and they sounded bad compared to the Numark pres - this was surprising to me but the difference is really big IMO.

I was also thinking of buying a dedicated highest quality phono preamp to go straight to the convertor but eventually I'm thinking maybe it is the coloring of the Numark that I like? Maybe with a dedicated phono preamp the sound will sound duller? I just don't know..

Regarding the rest of the chain: Yes, I am using Technics 1210 turntable. And no, I am not using Concordes as cartridges I don't like their sound (I play soulful house music which has a lot of live instrumentation, vocals etc.). I have tried all the (DJ) cartridges I found and bought the Shure M44-7 which I felt did the best job for the music I play.

The cables I'm using were the most expensive I could find.

Regarding processing and equing the sound in the computer - I have already tried doing that and was horribly surprised in the club at how bad it sounded..

However I am also thinking of finding an analog unit (SPL Vitaliser tube, Empirical Labs Fatso, Culture Vulture, that's the names I came up with so far..) that would allow me to try and subtly correct some vinyls that were pressed bad (and you must know there are a lot of them), or to warm up MP3's which sound so different than my vinyl recordings at the moment. Would love to hear your opinion about this too.

The reason I was thking of upgrading the resolution I record or the make of the unit (from RME to Apogee) was that, even though the sound I get when I record my vinyl with my current RME card is pretty close to the sound I get when I just play the vinyl, it's not close enough to my ears. The highs are less transparent and sweet, lows are less deep and the whole thing sounds a bit less punchy, so what I was wondering was if 192kHz might bring me even closer to the original (not talking about the original vinyl cause I don't know exactly how it's supposed to sound, but the original sound I get in my setup before recording) and if the Apogee card might do an even closer replica compared to the RME.

[Sanchez]

Glad to help, I'd still say lose the Numark and get a DECENT/dedicated hi-fi cart. I know you like the 'sound' of the Numark but it's a form of distortion which may or may not translate well to club speakers. When you're playing out you want your recordings to be sonically as close as possible to the originals, that way you're least likely to get any nasty surprises and can tweak the club's mixer etc as if you were playing the original. I play out a lot and have noticed on a few occasions where my laptop/cd sets sound better than folk pplaying records in the same club. Why? Because I'm basically bypassing worn stylii/poorly balanced decks and dodgy mixers by going straight into the main house mixer with very clean, flat recordings made for hi-fi. See where this is going? Shit in, shit out. You sound like you're ready to drop some relatively serious ca$h, and while a Urei may give your recordings a pleasing 'sound', when you get to club with a Urei, what happens? Your tracks are esentially going through 2 Ureis, which as Urei don't put twice as much circuitry in as they do, you'd assume is not a good thing. Just an exampple, but you see what I'm getting at? For this stage of the process forget 'good' or 'pleasing sound', focus on faithful, uncoloured sound, I'd say the same for extra processing. You said yourself it wasn't much of a success before and unless you really know what you're doing you're probably wasting your time/money on Vitalisers etc.
If you have an option why not borrow and test a Motu/Fireface etc and try and track down the weak points in your system first, same witha half-decent cart if you can, after all, why drop all that $$ on one link in your chain if another link you scrooged $100 on is letting the whole thing down?

[max cooper]

If you're just playing back your vinyl collection to get it into the digital world, wouldn't it make sense to use a t.t. that's made to do straight playback? With the exception of a Garrard 301, no idler or direct drive t.t. comes close to even a Rega Planar 3. Also, when you make the move from moving magnet cartridges and phono pres to moving coil cartridges and preamps, the sound improves in EVERY WAY (yes, there are a couple of exceptions to that...like Grado's moving shunt cartridges...but they're a lot pricier.) Remember: just because a cartridge says "hifi" on it doesn't mean anything.

[Braker]

Sanchez and max cooper thanks so much for your help.

First Sanchez,


OK, I think I'm finally beginning to get your point. I was also wondering about the going through the mixer circuirty twice issue and your words have made this point clearer in my mind.

So what I need first a better cartridge to connect to my 1210 turntable, do you have any specific suggestion? The second thing that I need to think about is what phono preamp I use to get into my convertor. I just realized that when I checked the RME phono preamps was when I was still using the old driver which had some sound issues that were solved with the updated driver, so I probably need to recheck those phono pre's just in case the driver problem had any bad effect on the sound I was getting, I'll do that tomorrow and post my findings though another thing is that the RME phono pre's don't have a dedicated gain control - only 2 options I think, which seems problematic to me because each vinyl is pressed at different gain and I always use the gain in my Numark mixer to get exactly the right amount (the Numark manual says you need to get to a point when the second red light in the meter lights up occasionaly in order to get the most punchy sound).

If the RME pre's are not good enough, and if going twice through the circuitry of a mixer is not a good idea either, maybe that means that I have to get a dedicated phono preamp in the highest quality I can find?

Still, there is the issue of badly pressed vinyls and colder sounding MP3's - there must be a way to improve those, isn't there?

max cooper,

I apologise for my ignorense, but I don't know what t.t. means and I couldn't follow your suggestions because I also don't recognise the other equipment you mentioned..

[Braker]

Just rechecked those RME pres - still get the same sound - duller. And I was A/B/Cing with 2 files (one recorded via the Numark pres, another via the RME pres) and the orginal vinyl: The file recorded via the Numark pre's sounded closer to the original vinyl played via the Numark mixer. In both the vinyl itself and in teh file recorded via the mixer pre's there was more sweetness compared to the duller sound of the file recorded with the RME pres.

So I really don't know what to think. I just can't tell what recording using a really good dedicated phono preamp would sound like.

[Sanchez]

Really good preamp? Like I said, just try a half-decent cart and a standard home hi-fi amp, bypassing the Numark and the RME's phono pres (didn't know RME even made such a unit) altogether. Also try recording from the line out of a cd player into the RME (NOT via the phono pres ) to see how good the d/a conversion actually is.
You asked what cart I use..some $250 Audio Technica model I picked up here in Japan. That into my RME Fireface sounds NICE, very clean and very present without sounding overblown or tweaked at all....sounds...just like the records to my ears. Has to be said too that in this application ie digitizing vinyl there's VERY little between the 828mk2 and the RME. While we're at it too, don't forget most club systems won't really do your recordings full justice anyhow. Also, if you're so fussy about sound, why are you even thinking of using mp3s unless they're at a crazy high encoding rate and you did it yourself?
You're starting to get it tho, work your way through the chain and identify the weakest elements.


ps TT means turntable!

[Braker]

Re the MP3's - well, sometimes there are tracks I'm just not able to get on vinyl. Also nowadays there are sites who sell 320kbs MP3's that are extracted straight from the master. And finally - my care of sound quality hasn't neccesarily got anything to do with high resolution or with numbers in general - only with what my ears tell me. I was surprised a number of times when some MP3 files actually went through the system better than their vinyl aquivalent! I think this has to do with pressing problems with some of my vinyls.

Vinyl can sound so sweet and yet at times (and they are not that rare), bad pressing can ruin a track.

I think it was Richie Hawtin who said that some tracks would sound best at vinyl, some on cd, and there are no absolute rules.

From my experience I tend to agree.

There are so many parameters here, especially when you're playing a club big system.

T.T. means turntable, naturally

If I am forgetting about the Apogee and going for either the RME Multiface or the Fireface, that means I'm saving a lot of money which I can spend on the turntable and cartridge.

max cooper, I've been doing a little reading and your point about the moving coil cartridge seems interesting. I'll try and check that next week in the shops. I've been playing my Technics 1210 for 13 years now and I wasn't even aware of a possiblity to use a cartridge that doesn't need a phono preamp.

Do you think that using a moving coil cartridge will improve the sound of any vinyl - regardless of genre?

[Braker]

Hi again,

I've been to the local shop, looking for cartridges.

The man over there who has 30 years of experience (though I don't take anything someone tells me for granted) said I could do great with my Technics 1210. He suggested I should buy an Ortofon 540 MK II cartridge instead of my current Shure M44-7.

http://www.adelcom.net/ORTOFON-540-mk2-Page.htm

Does anyone know anything about this cartridge?

Problem with this is you just can't listen to the cartridge before you buy and when you buy you can't change your mind.

Regarding the phono stage: What I am just about to buy is possibly the best DJ mixer in the market: the Rane Rotary (MP 2016). It is supposed to have really high quality phono stage and is used (as a DJ mixer) by the best musicians in the genre I'm playing.

Soe anyone know anything about this unit? Do you think it might be good enough for this archiving project?

[Braker]

Hi again,

I've been to the local shop, looking for cartridges.

The man over there who has 30 years of experience (though I don't take anything someone tells me for granted) said I could do great with my Technics 1210. He suggested I should buy an Ortofon 540 MK II cartridge instead of my current Shure M44-7.

http://www.adelcom.net/ORTOFON-540-mk2-Page.htm

Does anyone know anything about this cartridge?

Problem with this is you just can't listen to the cartridge before you buy and when you buy you can't change your mind.

Regarding the phono stage: What I am just about to buy is possibly the best DJ mixer in the market: the Rane Rotary (MP 2016). It is supposed to have really high quality phono stage and is used (as a DJ mixer) by the best musicians in the genre I'm playing.

Soe anyone know anything about this unit? Do you think it might be good enough for this archiving project?

[sfere recording]

Hi braker

use shure white labels...best for the money otherwise be prepared to pay at least 5k for an "audiphile" quality set of needles. I totally understand the reasoning behind the numark decision. There were several records made by re-recording a master from dat through their line input channels...something about the warm "crushing" qualities of cheaper parts. I don't know but I for one have witnessed this and I couldn't believe it at first. Goes against everything I've heard...but hey if it works well then why not? I've had both the 828 mkII and the rosetta 800 w/big-ben...uh ..the rosetta stayed. 828 ebayed...difference is night and day. Not to bad mouth it.....just that for what I did, house, everything sounded better..to me. Still if you really want to capture the ideal way that the record's producer wanted you to hear it...your best bet is to go for an extremely high quality phono pre-amp without any bells and whistles.

peace
Dennis Ferrer

[Braker]

Thanks Dennis,

First of all respect to your music man! I play *alot* of your stuff when I DJ (I'm about the only working Soulful House DJ over here in Tel Aviv, Israel, I hope our Soul line will grow to a point when we can invite you over one day, we have a small but great crowd for your music over here). I actually know your stuff since the early 90's when you were still making Techno on that Sinewave label I think, I used to be also into Techno at the time.

Secondly, this is a really funny coincedence that you replied to my question, cause my partner (Elman) has just sent you one of the tracks we've been working on and been in e-mail communication with you. Funny how small the world has become..

I would love to ask you a couple of questions since you know exactly the type of music and sound I am after.

Finally someone understands my love for the Numark sound, cause usually I get laughed at when I say I like it.

But you make me recosider my choice - as I said I am just about to buy a Rane Rotary plus the EQ unit which I know Louie Vega uses, it fact I have a good deal on the actual unit he used when he was playing over here and he's going to use it again this Thursday when he will be here again in Tel Aviv.

Even though I haven't had a chance to compare the two I was pretty sure the Rane will sound even better than my old Numark warm sound and I thought it might be good enough as a phono stage for recording.

Now I'm not sure anymore. What do you think?

Also - you're talking about a dedicated phono pre-amp, do you think it will do a better job than the Rane or the Numark and do you have any specific recomandations?

You said: "shure white labels" - from a little search I found that this is a cartridge which is "tailored for the club environment". Remember I only need the cartridge in order to record my vinyl into my computer, not for playing outside. Am I wrong in assuming that club tailored cartridges will sound worse than cartridges that were designed just for listening like that Ortofon 540 MK II?

And finally - regarding the Rosetta: did you have a chance to compare it to something like the new RME Fireface? I know Apogee make better convertors than RME and I wonder if it will actually have an effect on how the house music recordings will sound.

Thanks alot,

B

[Ol' Betsey]

Well, I'm not a DJ but this is a pretty friggin' interesting thread...

Good luck with your choice/desicion.

R.

[sfere recording]

Hi braker
thank u soooo much 4 the support. Ok..a great dedicated phono pre-amp is made by Grado...You want to eliminate as much of a signal path as possible and getting a Rane will not achieve this. Your program material will have to bounce from channel to channel and then be summed. You definitely don't want that. I love them to death but they are a bit tempermental. Anythingclose 7-8 begins to get crunchy...they're notorious for this.......Amazing dj mixer for a club setting but I'm skeptical of it in a "recording from vinyl-mastering" type usage. Then again...this is after all House music. You know the saying....."the reason why we call it house music is cuz you can only afford to make it in your house!!!"



You are correct in saying that the white label's are more "club friendly". They kinda hype up the record a bit.....that's why they work so great with final scratch's/serato's time-code striped records. The hyped up highs bring in a clearer definition of time-code for their hardware based reader. So to that......

The those "in-the-know audiphile circuit" know about Grado cartridges.
For transparent cartridges you'll most be definitely pretty close with these.....
I heard them first when my my friend Kerri showed me them. I warn you...they don't lie! That's why you shouln't blow off your initial impression of them. Most cartridges are hyped in one or several frequencies to give off an impression of loudness and clarity. Those are usually the "club" versions and they help sell the cartridge for obvious reasons.


http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm

check them out.....

hope this helps

peace
Dennis

[sfere recording]

regarding the 800 vs. RME...there have been soooo many debates regarding ad/da converters on here that it's ridiculous!

I'll make it simple....it's better to get the best 24bit AD/DA 44.1/48khz converter that you can afford than a decent 96k or higher.....Dan Lavry wrote a paper on this and why it doesn't make sense to go above 60k and change. While not being the end-all be-all it does make sense to me and since I don't record classical music I can do without the higher sampling rates until someone shows me record where I can point out while listening and say"f*** yeah...that was done on 96k! I can tell!" A full set of 16AD and 16DA Lavry Blues were out of my reach so I settled on what "I"thought was the closest alternative. Again this was my view of things..In the end .....a good song is a good song...and to tell you the truth people go overboard with this. I've heard a record mastered from a cassette go on to be a huge record...and we all laughed our asses off! The certain somebody's dat was full of errors and he had no backup 'cept for a version he tried out on his cheap ass car stereo! Go figure?LOL Amazing mastering salvage job by Masterdisk btw...if I recall correctly.
Go with what your budget allows....cuz in 3-4 years you'll be dumping it anyway for the "New and Improved blah-blah-blah!"....cuz at the end of the day that's what a true Gearslut does!!LOL

peace
dennis

[Braker]

cuz at the end of the day that's what a true Gearslut does!!

So now I am not only a vinyl junkie but a greaslut too, ha? Things are really looking bad for me..

Thanks for all the great tips, I'll definitly look into all the stuff you've mentioned.

I know a good song is a good song, and as I mentioned before, I couldn't hear any difference between 44.1 and 96kHz on my vinyl recordings with the RME. Still, I heard so many good songs get destroyed by crappy sound systems, bad MP3s, bad vinyl pressing (one of the main mysteries for me after all these years of playing - how even the big names of the genre can sometimes produce such horribly sounding vinyl - wether it's the pressing or the mastering or both), bad cartridges etc. etc. And later people blame the DJ or the music, while at other times - when the music sits perfectly in the house and all the frequencies seem to be in the right place, the magic that is created is like a pool of sound surrounding the place. I'm not saying this is the only parameter for a good party but I would really love to have the best sound possible.


Anyhow, the quest goes on.. back to reading and to the drawing board. Stay tuned!

[Braker]

Good luck with your choice/desicion.

Oh, and thanks Ol' Betsey!

[Braker]

I'm waiting to get replies if some of the stuff that was mentioned above is available for sell over here at local dealers.

I'm starting to realise there's another point here which I haven't considered enough so far: it seems that I have two directions with the cratridge and phono stage -

1. Try to get the most transparent gear I can get to be able to hear exactly what the original vinyl really sounds like. It seems that more expansive usually means - less colouring.

2. Go for cheaper gear that colours and even enhance (or excite) the sound.

If I was recording classical music that was recorded in huge, expensive studios, I imagine the choice would have been obvious - 1.

But since I'm recording house music that - as Dennis said - is recorded in the house, and I know some of these tracks are actually not the most pristine audio quality, so I wonder - maybe getting the most transparent gear is not neccesarily a good idea here. Maybe I don't want to hear the music exactly as it really is?

Cause I am no purist. What I care is only that it will sound punchy, defined, sweet and warm. And I honestly couldn't care less how this sound is achieved - if it's the original or if it is an exciter or whatever.

And I need to make a decision and drop some cash without even being able to audition the gear first.

Plus over here where I live most people don't have a clue and anyhow they can't care less.

Any magic solutions that will solve all my problems in life and make me a happy (and rich) man??

[headz]

IMO best get a good stylus (white label or HQ hi-fi cartridge) another must have is to get an excellent phono pre (creek, NAD, etc.) and finally dont use Ableton LIVE in any other than 're-pitch' algorithm to play back the files - cause all the other timestretch algorithms in Live eat up all groove/feel/sound of a final record recording.
Traktor 2.6 or Finalscratch is much better/versatile in file playback quality here..even with timestrething/pitchshifting activated.

I agree with the others the apogee 800 is overshoot in therms of wave/MP3 playback for clubs - try to check out the new finalscratch 2 Amp it's quality is 1000times better than FS1 amp (which was total crap)..., this ones made for club purpose...

cheers,
headz

[max cooper]

t.t. = turntable

Headz mentions the Creek phono preamp, which is excellent for moving magnet type cartridges; they make an integrated amp/preamp model like a NAD (but a LOT better IMHO; NAD are what we refer to as 'soup cans' due to the construction + sound...kind of the low, low end of good hi-fi) but Creek also make a STAND-ALONE PHONO PREAMP, meaning that for about $350 US you can now send a super nice line level signal from your rekkids. As far as moving coil preamps, I have a LINN LINTO that I need to sell, since I have too much of that kind of stuff now. It'll probably go for around $1,200 US but you probably don't want to get that deep into LP Playback.

Anyhow, if you get a chance to hear the Creek, do. It's excellent, I think.

My G.F. says the foundation of our house is going to crack under the weight of all the vinyl.

[Sanchez]

Dang, how the baby has grown while I've been away!
Couple of things since you seem to be getting further along with this now:as someone mentioned and slipped my eye before...Ableton Live, love it to bits for production as I do, I stopped using it for djing because of the sound. Not on all tracks, in general it gave amazing, creative results, but on a few tracks, no matter which warp algorithm I tried it just sounded horrible, made me want to stop the track there and then. These days I use Traktor DJ with a Faderfox controller and find that MUCH better. It's also far more analogous to 'traditional' djing too as well as having a great pre-programmed and on-the-fly loop function. (Although track info such as loops etc will be lost if you're using wav/aiff) Also, are you planning on using whatever-new-interface for playback too? About the Rane, sweet as they are, I wouldn't go there just for recording, as someone else noted too, you just don't need all that circuitry cluttering your path, get a dedicated pre-amp and go direct into your card. If you do get the Rane (hey why not bite the bullet and get a Urei???) you'd be better dragging it to the party really. There are so many variables in play-you mentioned how some records sound great in the room and others don't. That's not simply down to bad pressing etc but also production values and very importantly how the room sounds. Acoustically a certain room might produce a sound more pleasing to you on certain records than others, that's as much fault the room as the record...never mind the sound system...let's not even go there.
I play all kinds of stuff, maybe have a few tracks to suit your ear, if you can message me maybe I can drop you a sample of some of the recordings I've made.

[Braker]

Hi again,

Thanks again everyone for all the tips.

I've been away for a few days researching some more in some other forums (mainly Wave music) and getting even deeper into all this.

Well, I've really learned a lot in the last couple of weeks. My thoughts at the moment are:

First of all forget about the Rane and get the new Urei LE unit. Seems that it sounds identical to the old one.

And from all I've read there's no comparison in sound between the Urei and the Rane.

Last Thursday I've actually heard exactly what Dennis wrote about - the problem with the Rane distorting at a certain level - this was at a party in one of the biggest clubs here in Tel Aviv, Louie Vega played so they brought the Rane (exactly the specific unit I was thinking of buying) for him to play on and the guy that played before him just didn't know the mixer and was pushing it so hard the whole place was distorting so bad you couldn't hear any harmonic content and everyone were walking with their hands covering their ears - it was painful! Of course when Louie started playing he turned the volume down and it stopped distorting, though the sound in that place is still crap.

Second, I decided to get a dedicated phono preamp for the recording, though not sure yet which one.

Heard great things about the Slee Gramamp 2 (reviews saying it sounds as good as the best 4 digits units out there. http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/ ).

Also, thinking about the Shure V15 for a high fi cartridge just for recording. (got really great recomandations on it from peopel who actually use it for recording the same type of music that I will)

Still not sure about the convertor yet. Probably RME Multiface or Fireface (last one is Firewire)

I will probably get some Isolator/s for the Urei.

Was pretty impressed by that guy Shorty in Wave music forum (the guy that did the sound for Stereo in Canada), and it seems his new isolators are great.

Any opinions?

[Sanchez]

Sounds like on you're on the right (signal) path, don't really know the any of the new units you mentioned but keep your two missions ie recording and playback separate and I think you'll be happy. By the way, interested to know what you think of the sound in Live on whole warped tracks. As I said I have some tracks that sound ROTTEN in it. DO you need to use Live for creative purposes in the mix or just because.....if you're not actually using it's Live-ness live, then you might be better with Traktor if you're basically looking to replace traditional dj styles plus a little extra. (As I said, the intelligent looping and filter are very useful)

[Braker]

Hey Sanchez,

BTW - check your PM box.

Regarding Live, I forgot to comment on that: Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Noticed the same thing. When changing the bpm of the track the only way I got it to sound good was using "Repitch", then it seemed completely ok to me. But if I want to change the bpm and retain the original pitch - it seemed that none of the other algorythms did a decent job. All of them sounded bad.

I still don't know what I'm going to do about this problem, because I do want to use the extra creative possibilities of Live and especially being able to play more than 2 layers at a time (I was thinking of 4), and the effects and plug ins. I mean - the main reason for doing this whole thing is opening up new creative possibilities.

So.. either I'll play with Live using only Repitch, which also compromise on some creative options of course, or maybe I'll do my re-edits in Live (did a few already and it's a joy and worked great in the club when I burned them and played them from CD) and play using one of the other software that doesn't have this problem, not sure yet.

I know Francois K is sometimes using Live and sometimes two computers running Tracktor (I think), so that he'll have 4 different layers to play with.

Why don't they get their time stretching algorythms together?

[love_tempo]

I think everyone here is right about upgrading your cartridge, turnatable, preamp etc...as a matter of priority.

For the turntable I would go for something like a Linn LP12 with an upgraded rega RB300 arm + a nice Audio Technica cart. You might be able to find an LP12 with a nice arm/cart/pre in a package deal for say, a $1200.

Getting your records professionally cleaned before recording them would also be worth it.

I also think that your ears aren't fooling you with the conversion. If you are hearing a loss then there is a loss. I'm not surprised, I also find digitized vinyl loses it's magic. If your ears don't like the RME then you need to step up to high end convertors.

And yes, I definitely think higher sampling rates could make a major improvement. My own experience and a few articles I have read recently by the likes of Rupert Neve have convinced me of this. But I think that it is more noticable with high end convertors. The better clocking and filtering in the likes of Apogee convertors makes a bigger difference.

[love_tempo]

Originally Posted by Braker

Hey Sanchez,

BTW - check your PM box.

Regarding Live, I forgot to comment on that: Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Noticed the same thing. When changing the bpm of the track the only way I got it to sound good was using "Repitch", then it seemed completely ok to me. But if I want to change the bpm and retain the original pitch - it seemed that none of the other algorythms did a decent job. All of them sounded bad.

Why don't they get their time stretching algorythms together?

That's a well known problem with Live. The other time stretching algorithms make the audio sound worse than low bit rate mp3!!! It's mad really because even someone with cloth ears can hear how bad the artefacts are. How did ableton ever release it sounding like that?

Although I hope they keep them as an option cos I got some great sounds / effects out of abusing them

I think they did a lot of work on this for Live 5 didn't they?