My new project is lackong new sounds cause i know nothin...

luddite · 16th July 2008, 02:00 PM

Hey,

Generallly i record/write rock/pop/acoustic stuff and do most of it live.

Even though i record digitally everything is done without clicktracks and overdubs are done without cut'n'paste and all the normal digital shortcut ways.

So i am recording a new solo project and started playing with nuendo a little more than usual and came up with a contemporary kinda sounding track.

But still it sounds a little boring. I plan to do 11 more tracks in the same vein.

I basically placed every kick manually and played the piano and guitars and cut and paste a little.

There is effects on the piano but generally everything is hand done.

The entire track took me forever (about 6 hours) and it quickly became apparent that there must be easier ways to do this stuff.

I am thinking different synths/ VSTi's etc.

My set up is nuendo3, hypersonic 2, BFD 1.5 and thats it really.

In this recording i didnt even use BFD.

So here is the track - any help at making it more interesting with VSTi's/ effects/etc would be much welcomed.

Note: I dont really have much cash though all my hardware is pretty mint. And i am more looking for interesting and free/creative ways to go about this.

Guitar: Cole Clark AC3, Recording Hardware C-Port 2000, Vox Rode NT1 and SM57's, Piano Edirol Midi. Bass Epiphone Squire, Guitars - Maton FyrBird 63'. Pedals - many vintage and new.

Tell Me When

ovdojoey · 16th July 2008, 02:06 PM

I don't know if this is the right place for this type of thread... But I can say the vocals need some work... maybe running an autotuner because they sound very out of pitch - but also it lacks a good tone - it sounds like the person is putting a weird emotion into it - I suggest a new singer actually...

You have already put in a lot of different effects but this kick sounds way to electronic.... it needs realistic feel it sounds like its punching through the mix to much.

As for interesting... it's interesting enough - reduce that kick drum its WAY to loud and annoying its like a click track...

I wouldn't add many more vsts/synths to it... I don't know where they would fit....

Sorry to point out only negatives but I do like the chorus somewhat... it just needs a bit of touch up....

luddite · 16th July 2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

I don't know if this is the right place for this type of thread... But I can say the vocals need some work... maybe running an autotuner because they sound very out of pitch - but also it lacks a good tone - it sounds like the person is putting a weird emotion into it - I suggest a new singer actually...

Mmm -good points. I am the singer :-) but I know that i am not the best(or even close). That out-of-pitch is on purpose(well at least the up down high low 'tell me when part) although I may have missed the boat on getting the right sound .

What is possible with the tone? Any tips/threads?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

You have already put in a lot of different effects but this kick sounds way to electronic.... it needs realistic feel it sounds like its punching through the mix to much.

Yeah i hate that kick too. It sounds pathetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

As for interesting... it's interesting enough - reduce that kick drum its WAY to loud and annoying its like a click track...

Good point. I might just replace it while im at it. Any suggestion as to which kind of kick?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

I wouldn't add many more vsts/synths to it... I don't know where they would fit....

Same...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

Sorry to point out only negatives but I do like the chorus somewhat... it just needs a bit of touch up....

They are not negatives and I wouldnt take offense if they were nor would i post if i was precious of opinion.

Thanks so far.

luddite · 16th July 2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovdojoey

I don't know if this is the right place for this type of thread.

where should it go? Can it be moved?

Blast9 · 16th July 2008, 07:15 PM

Don't change the kick!

Just filter it a bit, and reduce the vol.

Try some soft filtered triplet delay on the kick, say 1/2 way through the song to give the rhythm some movement.

Reason is cool for this sort of stuff.

Try some compression and tape delay on the lead vox when it comes in loud and dry

Try some shakers or other perc

Try filtering the keys on some bits of the song to add tension

Flying_Dutchman · 16th July 2008, 08:40 PM

drop that kick by 6-10 db
redo the vocals in tune, the voice has character, but its out of tune.
eq the guitar!!! and synth different, it fights with itself and the vocals
put some shakkers or percussion, you need the swing, theres no shaka that moves the song
modulate the keys, they need to be more exercising
put a buss-compressor to bring it better together,
medium attak, ratio 1-2, fast realse as possible, sidechain filter 100 Hz, 60%soft knee or sth.
put more passion to the vocals, unleash the beast, you have it, let it go...
take another vocal verb, sounds like on toilet, use a plate
watch out for vocal dynamics, check this with your sequencer pencil
i hope you dont hate me, but thats my opinion

Blast9 · 16th July 2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

take another vocal verb, sounds like on toilet, use a plate
watch out for vocal dynamics, check this with your sequencer pencil
i hope you dont hate me, but thats my opinion

donsolo · 17th July 2008, 08:49 PM

Without listening,
It sounds like you're frustrated with the amount of time it takes to make these tracks and you're looking for some way to make it better, faster.

There's really only one solution for that, practice!

It's amazing but as you practice, your tone will improve, your intonation will improve and your timing will improve.

This leads to fewer edits, less guessing, more production.

There's no software solution to make the music for you. You just need to dig in, know it doesn't happen over night and hit the woodshed.

I know it seems kinda dickish to say but it's literally the only way to get good.

luddite · 18th July 2008, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blast9

Don't change the kick!

Just filter it a bit, and reduce the vol.

Try some soft filtered triplet delay on the kick, say 1/2 way through the song to give the rhythm some movement.

Reason is cool for this sort of stuff.

Try some compression and tape delay on the lead vox when it comes in loud and dry

Try some shakers or other perc

Try filtering the keys on some bits of the song to add tension

Great - i will try this filter technique and post tommorrow the outcome.

Also - i might put a really really low shaker in. i just learnt how to with BFD though it a little difficult getting it sounding right.

luddite · 18th July 2008, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

drop that kick by 6-10 db

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

redo the vocals in tune, the voice has character, but its out of tune.

Is the vocal really out of tune? The phrase 'tell me when' definately goes in and out on purposes but the rest - maybe im crazy but it seems in key to me. I must be... what can i do? maybe my ear is fooked :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

eq the guitar!!! and synth different, it fights with itself and the vocals

I see that now. Ok thats easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

put some shakkers or percussion, you

:-) ok- the second to say this also- Consider it done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

need the swing, theres no shaka that moves the song

haha - ok i said already. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

modulate the keys, they need to be more exercising

I will find how to do this and make it so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

put a buss-compressor to bring it better together,

I will find how to do this and make it so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

medium attak, ratio 1-2, fast realse as possible, sidechain filter 100 Hz, 60%soft knee or sth.

I dont know what sidechaining is but will find out. Sounds kinky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

put more passion to the vocals, unleash the beast, you have it, let it go...

Ok- redoing the entire vocals in the morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

take another vocal verb, sounds like on toilet, use a plate

I used the default verb in nuendo. I will change it to a plate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

watch out for vocal dynamics, check this with your sequencer pencil

Ok - this i know how to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

i hope you dont hate me, but thats my opinion

I cant hate you when you offer so many new things for me to learn and better myself with. Infact I thankyou for your honesty.

So...Thanks :-)

luddite · 18th July 2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donsolo

Without listening,
It sounds like you're frustrated with the amount of time it takes to make these tracks and you're looking for some way to make it better, faster.

There's really only one solution for that, practice!

It's amazing but as you practice, your tone will improve, your intonation will improve and your timing will improve.

This leads to fewer edits, less guessing, more production.

There's no software solution to make the music for you. You just need to dig in, know it doesn't happen over night and hit the woodshed.

I know it seems kinda dickish to say but it's literally the only way to get good.

Hey - it may come across that way but its not. I can play so the construction of the song was easy as was the writting.

My main problem is not to get automated instuments as you have to play the midi on a midi keyboard anyway but to learn more with sounds and getting them into songs and sounding right once in.

The above posts really gavce me some great tips and more than enough to get me to improve until i understand what I am doing there.

I have way too many songs as it is, usually about 300 a year with about 30 being good in others eyes(i think they are all ok usually as i write them but can tell the differenece between what others will ike usually)

Thanks.

Blast9 · 18th July 2008, 10:06 AM

Just in case you missed my suggestion, you should give Reason a try for this kinda stuff... Abelton Live might or Fruity Loops could be cool too!

luddite · 18th July 2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blast9

Just in case you missed my suggestion, you should give Reason a try for this kinda stuff... Abelton Live might or Fruity Loops could be cool too!

Nope - i got it, thanks again.

i will look into reason tommorrow.

putney41 · 19th July 2008, 08:30 AM

I think your voice sounds great. The people on this post who are saying to sing in tune don't get the artistic nature of your style or your music. Couldn't you just hear these people telling Bob Dillan, Tom Waits, or Steve Malkmus to sing in tune? Hilarious. Anyway, I do agree with the bass drum. Have you ever thought of using a concert bass drum for a bigger/fuller sound? Might sound cool. Anyway, I've listened to this song about 8 times and love it. It reminds me of modest mouse, halo benders, pixies. It's great and do not redo the vocal! It makes the song!

theblue1 · 19th July 2008, 04:01 PM

I listened to this the other day but didn't comment then. Some of the subsequent comments have got me going.

First, I'm a fan of outsider music. I like the way David Thomas from Pere Ubu sings. Big fan of Captain Beefheart, etc.*

Anyhow, I can tell when a vocal is pretty far out of tune and, in places, this track's main vocal certainly is. If that's what you as the artist wants, fine. It presumably conveys lack of artifice. But it's also somewhat awkward and more than a little uncomfortable in places.

As noble as the attempt to avoid the grid is -- and it is -- it's problematic here. This is a fairly muddy rhythmic sea. The arpeggiation of the keys and drum fight it out uncomfortably.

Much attention has been paid to the kick. I'm very much with the camp that wants it buried. More like a foot stomp.I can't help but think the song would be well served by a more conventional drum part, but if one is going to go with primarily just the kick, I think it's crying to sink into the background quite a bit and, also, to share in some of that reverb that drenches much of the track. As it is, it sounds completely divorced from the song, like it's glued on out in front.

Speaking of reverb, I would definitely be inclined to rethink it entirely. As cool as the b/u vox sound back there, when you apply it to the main vocal after the first bit, it pushes that vocal back and then the other instruments all but bury it.

Anyhow, there's a lot of charm to this song, but I can't help but feel like you haven't quite found its optimal representation.

I think it's well worth working just a bit more on.

___________

* That said, their vocals work because they're outsiders and because they're not trying to sing straight.

Since Tom Waits was mentioned, and I just listened to his first album, "Closing Time," yesterday, I'll just say that someone should have told him to work on the pitch problems that pop up in places on that album. There are some real clinkers in there. His pitch control, happily, improved, even as he harshed up his voice as the 70s went on.

With regard to Dylan and later Waits, it's not so much that they sing out of tune -- it's that they do not work their vocalizing in such a way to follow the melody with changes in the resonance of their vocal apparatus, as "straight" singers do -- so what comes out sounds somewhat monochromatic -- even though it actually does contain fundamental pitch information.

Before I played music and long before I got involved in commercial recording, I wondered why Dylan sounded like what seemed to me a monotone -- yet if you listened to him, you could extract and sing the melody. Now I realize it's all about how 'good' singers change the resonance of their vocal apparatus as the melody changes in order to reinforce the fundamental. It was actually working with synths and complex time-based filters that finally put me on the answer to that. (As well as listening to those with formal vocal training talk about technique and tone.)

Chrisc_o · 19th July 2008, 06:16 PM

^ agreed about the more conventional drum part. A sparse modern RnB groove would help a lot.

Also, the comments about the vox being out of tune are correct, and this is taking into account the sliding up and down in the "tell me when" parts.

Comment re: grid : many people feel as you do about the whole click track/quantize issue. I think that a well performed and arranged track will breathe in a natural way regardless of the level of precision. You can make a grid swing and bounce if you know how to do it.

You seem to have a great atitude regarding the comments here, which is a good sign. My main suggestion is to practice, maybe enven work on two or three different versions (start from scratch each time, finish one completely before starting another one) of the same song.

Never forget: it is all about the music. If the song is good and the molody is good, make sure that arrangement is complimentary to both of these things and that the recording doesn't detract for the song. Most of the time if it is just not happening it is probably due to a problem with the arrangement, not the gear (or virtual gear). Your gear is good enough so work on making the most of the tools you have and combining them in different ways.

uncle duncan · 19th July 2008, 06:53 PM

Nice tune. It has a certain unsettling, creepy quality that I really like. I could imagine it in a David Lynch movie.

Have you considered working on your vocals? As in doing scales every day? Just like any instrument, if you don't practice, you'll never get better. I say this from personal experience. If I sing scales along with the piano every morning for a week, suddenly, I can sing in tune. If I don't, my pitch control goes away and when I record my singing I have to fix everything with pitch correction later. It's great to be a character-singer, scooping up or down to notes, but at some point you need to nail the pitch. Especially in the group vocal that finishes the song.

Since this piece is a relatively steady tempo, it's a perfect candidate for a grid and a loop. Many loops are actually played by real drummers. To assume you can come up with something better than a real drummer is not realistic. In today's music market, rhythm is king. Your home made rhythm, at least on this track, won't cut it. In fact, it will telegraph 'amateur' to anyone who listens to it.

I really like your instrumentation. Perhaps during the repetitive group vocal section at the end, you could come up with a counter-melody to play in the background, like a far away clarinet or something. Listen to some of the Beatles stuff for ideas. The great thing about their music is the simplicity of it, even though it can sound quite complicated. If you actually break it down, you'll find defined parts, counter-melodies, that combine to create a huge sound.

With this in mind, I think you could do more with the stereo field.

Your song has the potential to be a really great track. Nice work!

Unclenny · 19th July 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Your song has the potential to be a really great track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

I think it's well worth working just a bit more on.

I love a tune like this! It's kind of off the map...........

Good to hear somebody singing something just because it feels that way.

As mentioned above, consider recording this song a number of times....change it up depending on how you're feeling and then start all over again. You just might end up with something that really gets you.

Shared Soul

putney41 · 20th July 2008, 06:19 AM

dude. i can't get over how great the melody at end of this song is. this is as good as early modest mouse. i've listened to a lot of songs on these forums and this is easily one of the best (songwriting) i've come across. many people can record and engineer. very few can come up with something artistic, melodic, and catchy. good luck with it.

luddite · 20th July 2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by putney41

I think your voice sounds great. The people on this post who are saying to sing in tune don't get the artistic nature of your style or your music. Couldn't you just hear these people telling Bob Dillan, Tom Waits, or Steve Malkmus to sing in tune? Hilarious. Anyway, I do agree with the bass drum. Have you ever thought of using a concert bass drum for a bigger/fuller sound? Might sound cool. Anyway, I've listened to this song about 8 times and love it. It reminds me of modest mouse, halo benders, pixies. It's great and do not redo the vocal! It makes the song!

Thanks putney41.

Quote:

Originally Posted by putney41

dude. i can't get over how great the melody at end of this song is. this is as good as early modest mouse. i've listened to a lot of songs on these forums and this is easily one of the best (songwriting) i've come across. many people can record and engineer. very few can come up with something artistic, melodic, and catchy. good luck with it.

Well cheers, - songwriting is the only thing im good at, usually im too lazy to finish them. The last 4 years ive written about 300 songs a year which sucks because i cant remember them - so i record them rough everyday.

This song is about the average for my last fifty or so this year. Some better some worse but it is in the same vein as this new album Im doing.

I loke those bands (modest mouse and pixies inparticular) and want to keep the vocal also.

I played the song today as I was doing sidechaining and eq'ing from the suggestions here and i dont really want to change it. I will re-record it but i doubt that it will sound better once the pitch is in.

Will see though.

:-)

luddite · 20th July 2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Nice tune. It has a certain unsettling, creepy quality that I really like. I could imagine it in a David Lynch movie.

Have you considered working on your vocals? As in doing scales every day? Just like any instrument, if you don't practice, you'll never get better. I say this from personal experience. If I sing scales along with the piano every morning for a week, suddenly, I can sing in tune. If I don't, my pitch control goes away and when I record my singing I have to fix everything with pitch correction later. It's great to be a character-singer, scooping up or down to notes, but at some point you need to nail the pitch. Especially in the group vocal that finishes the song.

Since this piece is a relatively steady tempo, it's a perfect candidate for a grid and a loop. Many loops are actually played by real drummers. To assume you can come up with something better than a real drummer is not realistic. In today's music market, rhythm is king. Your home made rhythm, at least on this track, won't cut it. In fact, it will telegraph 'amateur' to anyone who listens to it.

I really like your instrumentation. Perhaps during the repetitive group vocal section at the end, you could come up with a counter-melody to play in the background, like a far away clarinet or something. Listen to some of the Beatles stuff for ideas. The great thing about their music is the simplicity of it, even though it can sound quite complicated. If you actually break it down, you'll find defined parts, counter-melodies, that combine to create a huge sound.

With this in mind, I think you could do more with the stereo field.

Your song has the potential to be a really great track. Nice work!

So much to take from that post.

First- thanks muchly.

Second - i have that problem sometimes and will look into scales as a excercise thing. I may download a free instructioanl vid if i can find one.

I have my mate who plays drums coming over to record acoustic versions with me of this song and 11 others. I will see what that does to it ...

I really like your counter-melody suggestion and think i know how /what to do there. Basically i will copy the intro vox melody and do it at the end.

luddite · 20th July 2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

I listened to this the other day but didn't comment then. Some of the subsequent comments have got me going.

Same here :-)

First, I'm a fan of outsider music. I like the way David Thomas from Pere Ubu sings. Big fan of Captain Beefheart, etc.* [/quote]

Beefheart rules in so many ways. Doc at the radar station is great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

Anyhow, I can tell when a vocal is pretty far out of tune and, in places, this track's main vocal certainly is. If that's what you as the artist wants, fine. It presumably conveys lack of artifice. But it's also somewhat awkward and more than a little uncomfortable in places.

I wasnt trying for out of tune. I didnt even notice until it was pointed out. I still cant see it really. I will do a new version but i think the original mistakes are usually keepers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

As noble as the attempt to avoid the grid is -- and it is -- it's problematic here. This is a fairly muddy rhythmic sea. The arpeggiation of the keys and drum fight it out uncomfortably.

I dont know what this grid is, but i think its the midi one. The song is cut and pastable as its perfectly recorded into a click track. the drums were hand placed though and i dont quantize them ever really because i think its barely noticable and takes too long for a result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

Much attention has been paid to the kick. I'm very much with the camp that wants it buried. More like a foot stomp.I can't help but think the song would be well served by a more conventional drum part, but if one is going to go with primarily just the kick, I think it's crying to sink into the background quite a bit and, also, to share in some of that reverb that drenches much of the track. As it is, it sounds completely divorced from the song, like it's glued on out in front.

Its buried now. Also Im playing with filters on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

Speaking of reverb, I would definitely be inclined to rethink it entirely. As cool as the b/u vox sound back there, when you apply it to the main vocal after the first bit, it pushes that vocal back and then the other instruments all but bury it.

Thinking now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

Anyhow, there's a lot of charm to this song, but I can't help but feel like you haven't quite found its optimal representation.

I think it's well worth working just a bit more on.

___________

Definately. thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

* That said, their vocals work because they're outsiders and because they're not trying to sing straight.

:-)

luddite · 20th July 2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

^ agreed about the more conventional drum part. A sparse modern RnB groove would help a lot.

Thats a odd suggestion. Odd enough to work. I will go through my midi loops and see what i have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Also, the comments about the vox being out of tune are correct, and this is taking into account the sliding up and down in the "tell me when" parts.

ok already. hahah. I sat down and played the song on acoustic a few mins ago - and i am in key singing to the guitar, pitch is fine too.. i am now confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Comment re: grid : many people feel as you do about the whole click track/quantize issue. I think that a well performed and arranged track will breathe in a natural way regardless of the level of precision. You can make a grid swing and bounce if you know how to do it.

I agree. Thats easy i think :-) (easy to say, hard to do)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

You seem to have a great atitude regarding the comments here, which is a good sign. My main suggestion is to practice, maybe enven work on two or three different versions (start from scratch each time, finish one completely before starting another one) of the same song.

Thanks,

Opinion is something i entertain but wont kill myself over as there are so many opinions.

I have taken so many positives from the responses and when the song gets them added in as appropriate i think you will all be pleasantly suprised. Its going to a different but not your 3 versions different. I honestly dont have the time to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Never forget: it is all about the music. If the song is good and the molody is good, make sure that arrangement is complimentary to both of these things and that the recording doesn't detract for the song. Most of the time if it is just not happening it is probably due to a problem with the arrangement, not the gear (or virtual gear). Your gear is good enough so work on making the most of the tools you have and combining them in different ways.

I aggree and thanks.

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16th July 2008, 02:00 PM	#1
luddite Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 27	My new project is lackong new sounds cause i know nothin... Hey, Generallly i record/write rock/pop/acoustic stuff and do most of it live. Even though i record digitally everything is done without clicktracks and overdubs are done without cut'n'paste and all the normal digital shortcut ways. So i am recording a new solo project and started playing with nuendo a little more than usual and came up with a contemporary kinda sounding track. But still it sounds a little boring. I plan to do 11 more tracks in the same vein. I basically placed every kick manually and played the piano and guitars and cut and paste a little. There is effects on the piano but generally everything is hand done. The entire track took me forever (about 6 hours) and it quickly became apparent that there must be easier ways to do this stuff. I am thinking different synths/ VSTi's etc. My set up is nuendo3, hypersonic 2, BFD 1.5 and thats it really. In this recording i didnt even use BFD. So here is the track - any help at making it more interesting with VSTi's/ effects/etc would be much welcomed. Note: I dont really have much cash though all my hardware is pretty mint. And i am more looking for interesting and free/creative ways to go about this. Guitar: Cole Clark AC3, Recording Hardware C-Port 2000, Vox Rode NT1 and SM57's, Piano Edirol Midi. Bass Epiphone Squire, Guitars - Maton FyrBird 63'. Pedals - many vintage and new. Tell Me When

16th July 2008, 07:15 PM	#5
Blast9 Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 2,744	Don't change the kick! Just filter it a bit, and reduce the vol. Try some soft filtered triplet delay on the kick, say 1/2 way through the song to give the rhythm some movement. Reason is cool for this sort of stuff. Try some compression and tape delay on the lead vox when it comes in loud and dry Try some shakers or other perc Try filtering the keys on some bits of the song to add tension __________________ :: my band is called protoangel My guitars: Atkin OM (sitka spruce top walnut back: sweet mids):: Atkin Small Jumbo (cedar top, rosewood back: big bottom, sparkly top):: Jap Tele with fat frets (rude and fat):: . My amps: 1973 Hiwatt DR504::Framus Dragon ... Latest purchases Kel Audio HM-2d TC Electronic Nova System, Chameleon Labs 7602 Digi 002 + PTLE, Addictive Drums

18th July 2008, 10:06 AM	#12
Blast9 Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 2,744	Just in case you missed my suggestion, you should give Reason a try for this kinda stuff... Abelton Live might or Fruity Loops could be cool too! __________________ :: my band is called protoangel My guitars: Atkin OM (sitka spruce top walnut back: sweet mids):: Atkin Small Jumbo (cedar top, rosewood back: big bottom, sparkly top):: Jap Tele with fat frets (rude and fat):: . My amps: 1973 Hiwatt DR504::Framus Dragon ... Latest purchases Kel Audio HM-2d TC Electronic Nova System, Chameleon Labs 7602 Digi 002 + PTLE, Addictive Drums

19th July 2008, 04:01 PM	#15
theblue1 Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 5,450	Warning: tough love headed your way I listened to this the other day but didn't comment then. Some of the subsequent comments have got me going. First, I'm a fan of outsider music. I like the way David Thomas from Pere Ubu sings. Big fan of Captain Beefheart, etc.* Anyhow, I can tell when a vocal is pretty far out of tune and, in places, this track's main vocal certainly is. If that's what you as the artist wants, fine. It presumably conveys lack of artifice. But it's also somewhat awkward and more than a little uncomfortable in places. As noble as the attempt to avoid the grid is -- and it is -- it's problematic here. This is a fairly muddy rhythmic sea. The arpeggiation of the keys and drum fight it out uncomfortably. Much attention has been paid to the kick. I'm very much with the camp that wants it buried. More like a foot stomp.I can't help but think the song would be well served by a more conventional drum part, but if one is going to go with primarily just the kick, I think it's crying to sink into the background quite a bit and, also, to share in some of that reverb that drenches much of the track. As it is, it sounds completely divorced from the song, like it's glued on out in front. Speaking of reverb, I would definitely be inclined to rethink it entirely. As cool as the b/u vox sound back there, when you apply it to the main vocal after the first bit, it pushes that vocal back and then the other instruments all but bury it. Anyhow, there's a lot of charm to this song, but I can't help but feel like you haven't quite found its optimal representation. I think it's well worth working just a bit more on. ___________ * That said, their vocals work because they're outsiders and because they're not trying to sing straight. Since Tom Waits was mentioned, and I just listened to his first album, "Closing Time," yesterday, I'll just say that someone should have told him to work on the pitch problems that pop up in places on that album. There are some real clinkers in there. His pitch control, happily, improved, even as he harshed up his voice as the 70s went on. With regard to Dylan and later Waits, it's not so much that they sing out of tune -- it's that they do not work their vocalizing in such a way to follow the melody with changes in the resonance of their vocal apparatus, as "straight" singers do -- so what comes out sounds somewhat monochromatic -- even though it actually does contain fundamental pitch information. Before I played music and long before I got involved in commercial recording, I wondered why Dylan sounded like what seemed to me a monotone -- yet if you listened to him, you could extract and sing the melody. Now I realize it's all about how 'good' singers change the resonance of their vocal apparatus as the melody changes in order to reinforce the fundamental. It was actually working with synths and complex time-based filters that finally put me on the answer to that. (As well as listening to those with formal vocal training talk about technique and tone.) __________________ TKMajor.com \| profile \| songwriter blog \| folk/acoustic \| mutant roots pop: one blue nine \| politics

16th July 2008, 02:06 PM	#2
ovdojoey Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oviedo, FL Posts: 15	I don't know if this is the right place for this type of thread... But I can say the vocals need some work... maybe running an autotuner because they sound very out of pitch - but also it lacks a good tone - it sounds like the person is putting a weird emotion into it - I suggest a new singer actually... You have already put in a lot of different effects but this kick sounds way to electronic.... it needs realistic feel it sounds like its punching through the mix to much. As for interesting... it's interesting enough - reduce that kick drum its WAY to loud and annoying its like a click track... I wouldn't add many more vsts/synths to it... I don't know where they would fit.... Sorry to point out only negatives but I do like the chorus somewhat... it just needs a bit of touch up....

16th July 2008, 08:40 PM	#6
Flying_Dutchman Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 920	drop that kick by 6-10 db redo the vocals in tune, the voice has character, but its out of tune. eq the guitar!!! and synth different, it fights with itself and the vocals put some shakkers or percussion, you need the swing, theres no shaka that moves the song modulate the keys, they need to be more exercising put a buss-compressor to bring it better together, medium attak, ratio 1-2, fast realse as possible, sidechain filter 100 Hz, 60%soft knee or sth. put more passion to the vocals, unleash the beast, you have it, let it go... take another vocal verb, sounds like on toilet, use a plate watch out for vocal dynamics, check this with your sequencer pencil i hope you dont hate me, but thats my opinion

19th July 2008, 08:30 AM	#14
putney41 Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Spokane Posts: 69	I think your voice sounds great. The people on this post who are saying to sing in tune don't get the artistic nature of your style or your music. Couldn't you just hear these people telling Bob Dillan, Tom Waits, or Steve Malkmus to sing in tune? Hilarious. Anyway, I do agree with the bass drum. Have you ever thought of using a concert bass drum for a bigger/fuller sound? Might sound cool. Anyway, I've listened to this song about 8 times and love it. It reminds me of modest mouse, halo benders, pixies. It's great and do not redo the vocal! It makes the song!

19th July 2008, 06:16 PM	#16
Chrisc_o Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	^ agreed about the more conventional drum part. A sparse modern RnB groove would help a lot. Also, the comments about the vox being out of tune are correct, and this is taking into account the sliding up and down in the "tell me when" parts. Comment re: grid : many people feel as you do about the whole click track/quantize issue. I think that a well performed and arranged track will breathe in a natural way regardless of the level of precision. You can make a grid swing and bounce if you know how to do it. You seem to have a great atitude regarding the comments here, which is a good sign. My main suggestion is to practice, maybe enven work on two or three different versions (start from scratch each time, finish one completely before starting another one) of the same song. Never forget: it is all about the music. If the song is good and the molody is good, make sure that arrangement is complimentary to both of these things and that the recording doesn't detract for the song. Most of the time if it is just not happening it is probably due to a problem with the arrangement, not the gear (or virtual gear). Your gear is good enough so work on making the most of the tools you have and combining them in different ways.

19th July 2008, 06:53 PM	#17
uncle duncan Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,932	Nice tune. It has a certain unsettling, creepy quality that I really like. I could imagine it in a David Lynch movie. Have you considered working on your vocals? As in doing scales every day? Just like any instrument, if you don't practice, you'll never get better. I say this from personal experience. If I sing scales along with the piano every morning for a week, suddenly, I can sing in tune. If I don't, my pitch control goes away and when I record my singing I have to fix everything with pitch correction later. It's great to be a character-singer, scooping up or down to notes, but at some point you need to nail the pitch. Especially in the group vocal that finishes the song. Since this piece is a relatively steady tempo, it's a perfect candidate for a grid and a loop. Many loops are actually played by real drummers. To assume you can come up with something better than a real drummer is not realistic. In today's music market, rhythm is king. Your home made rhythm, at least on this track, won't cut it. In fact, it will telegraph 'amateur' to anyone who listens to it. I really like your instrumentation. Perhaps during the repetitive group vocal section at the end, you could come up with a counter-melody to play in the background, like a far away clarinet or something. Listen to some of the Beatles stuff for ideas. The great thing about their music is the simplicity of it, even though it can sound quite complicated. If you actually break it down, you'll find defined parts, counter-melodies, that combine to create a huge sound. With this in mind, I think you could do more with the stereo field. Your song has the potential to be a really great track. Nice work! __________________ "You're either with a native DAW, or you're with the terrorists." G.W. Busch Lite

20th July 2008, 06:19 AM	#19
putney41 Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Spokane Posts: 69	dude. i can't get over how great the melody at end of this song is. this is as good as early modest mouse. i've listened to a lot of songs on these forums and this is easily one of the best (songwriting) i've come across. many people can record and engineer. very few can come up with something artistic, melodic, and catchy. good luck with it.