sub-woofer question

[hollywood_steve]

The need for more and more gear just never seems to end......
I'm in the middle of my first mix that includes amplified bass since moving into my current space. In my last studio, which had a very large, acoustically balanced control room, my little Tannoy Reveals gave a good indication of the low end. Even sounds that were below the range of the Reveals were "hinted at" and I was never surprised when I took my mix to a system with big bottom.

But while I have done my best to treat my current room, the fact is that its a tiny little room and the low end response is not as clear as in the old room. I just listened to one of my current mixes in another room and heard several bass notes that just were not apparent on my system.

The only solution that I can think of is a sub-woofer. But I'm curious is even a sub is of much value in a very small room? Is there anyway to select a sub for a small room other than bringing it into the room and trying it out? Finally, has anyone tried the Tannoy 8" or 10" subs intended for use with Reveals?

[Ethan Winer]

Steve,

> The only solution that I can think of is a sub-woofer <

The only solution I can think of is bass traps.

--Ethan

[hollywood_steve]

> The only solution that I can think of is a sub-woofer <

The only solution I can think of is bass traps.


ya think??????

Of course, I have stuffed as much bass trapping (is that a word) as will fit in my tiny room. 4ea. 4ft x 2ft x 4" panels of 6pcf rigid fiberglass. One panel across each corner. Given the size of the room 14x8x8, and the gear that has to reside there, that's all the bass treatment that will fit. (I also have 4ea 4ft x 2ft x1.5" panels fighting the flutter echo between two parallel walls only 8ft apart.) Oh yeah, the room was built as part of a pro film sound complex, so the acoustical ceiling is insulated and the raised/ isolated floor was well constructed also. So, short of tearing down the 3rd floor of this building and starting over, the room has been treated as far as its gonna get)

So I've got as much fiberglass in that room as is gonna fit. The Reveals pretty much don't "reveal" anything below 80hz in this room, but a sub might. Comments?

[tINY]

Have you considered panel traps? Or, at least, doing a couple of measurements so you can get an idea where your problems are?



-tINY

[hollywood_steve]

Have you considered panel traps? Or, at least, doing a couple of measurements so you can get an idea where your problems are?

OK, we'll try this one more time. Yes, I have spent at least a solid week measuring the response of the room and all of the existing treatment was installed to effectively fight those issues as best possible. I used an oscillator, at least three different Test CDs, an SPL meter and several software packages. Then I got busy with the mathematics to determine the problem frequencies, plot the specific problem areas and design/fab/install suitable treatment. Treatment discussion over, please.

Now, lets talk about subs, OK? The Reveals don't have much to offer in that lowest musical octave (40hz to 80hz, or so). DOes anyone have any experience pairing them with a small (repeat: small!) subwoofer?

Thanks.

[Berolzheimer]

Hi Steve,
Call Ken Goerres. He's a acoustician and speaker designer, great at "tuning " rooms with whatever combination of acoustic treatment or speakering is appropriate. Tell him I sent ya. His # is (310) 406-6016, email :

exakte@yahoo.com

-Paul B.

[tINY]

I have not paired anything with the Reveals (I don't even think I have ever heard them). But, I have set-up subwoofers quite a bit.

There are two important things to think about: The HPF feeding the mains and the phase of the sub. If you get a sub that isn't designed to work with the Reveals, you should get something with a High Pass output and adjustable phase for the sub.

So you need to either buy an active crossover and an active sub, or get one with a HPF built in an a 90deg increment phase adjustment.

The NHT B-20 (2 14x14x16 cabinets) should work well.



-tINY

[Ethan Winer]

Steve,

> 4ea. 4ft x 2ft x 4" panels of 6pcf rigid fiberglass ... size of the room 14x8x8 <

Okay, that's a good start. But I'd add at least four more 2x4 foot panels in the ceiling corners, plus 4 more 2x2 foot panels in the ceiling tri-corners. I can't emphasise enough the importance of having as much bass trapping as possible in a small room like that.

> The Reveals pretty much don't "reveal" anything below 80hz <

I just looked up the specs at Tannoy's site, and it claims the Reveals get down to 65 Hz. But they don't say how many dB down they are there! So that spec is useless...

Assuming you're correct about 80 Hz being the practical cut-off, I agree that adding a subwoofer could help. But if replacing your Reveals with speakers that can honestly get down to at least 40 Hz is an option, that's an even better choice. And less of a band-aid.

--Ethan

[Brad Blackwood]

Ime, it's very difficult to add a sub with a crossover point that high and have it remain seamless. What you're really asking the thing to do is act as a woofer and a subwoofer, which is fine, but understand you are unlikely to get both smooth frequency response and an invisible crossover point...

All that being said, I highly recommend the Velodyne DD series subs. Active boxes with tremendous power capability, ultra low distortion, and all crossover/phase/etc adjustments are handled via DSP (and can be set to astonishing detail). I'm buying a second DD12 for my room as a Christmas present for myself!

[alphajerk]

id say your biggest problem is your speakers. i own a pair. i dont trust them AT ALL for low end. i was about to add a sub [and might still get one and two more reveals and their center channel for a cheap 5.1 system since i have some already... but thats for 5.1 film work, not music, and dont think i would trust that setup for music]

anyway. look at the tannoy sub, it might be matched with the reveals to work enough to get by... i dont know if it will do much past that. thats a pretty small room, mine is 11x13x8 right now and i cant imagine a smaller room, its especially that 8x8 dimension that makes me worry most with yours.

the velodyne sub brad mentioned is probably the nicest sub i have heard from any company but its like putting racing tires on a honda.... kinda pointless.

[hollywood_steve]

the velodyne sub brad mentioned is probably the nicest sub i have heard from any company but its like putting racing tires on a honda.... kinda pointless.

That's my thought as well. I also have been thinking about the Reveals as barely adequate, but seemingly appropriate for my situation. (1. tiny room; 2. small and portable for my location work; 3. the basis of a cheap 5.1 system some day; 4. better than anything I have ever heard anywhere near their price range - I paid $200 for the PAIR.)

As a location-only guy, I don't spend too much time in my room, AND I have access to several other control rooms when I need to do critical listening. My room is as much a staging area for my location gear as it is a control room. I just need to know that when I edit something together in that room that I have not completely missed some booming bass note that will show up on other systems, but not on the Reveals. Its not about achieving major improvements towards a great listening environment, I just don't want to miss a major low frequency rumble.

Sometimes it really is better to just fix one specific problem and not try to address the overall big picture.

[Berolzheimer]

Steve, with the small size of your room (I know, I've seen it) you might also consider a headphone solution. I use the Beyer DT-770's as my low-end early warning system, they are slightly exagerrated from around 40 to 80, just enough that if something is mixed well I can enjoy the xtra low end but if it's a little heavy it becomes overbearing.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
I just need to know that when I edit something together in that room that I have not completely missed some booming bass note that will show up on other systems, but not on the Reveals. Its not about achieving major improvements towards a great listening environment, I just don't want to miss a major low frequency rumble.

then by all means, get a SUB man... and turn it up depending on what you are doing [like checking the bottom, sometimes i like to turn off the sats and listen to just LF info... not for any adjusting or anything beyond just hearing it]

[De chromium cob]

In my experience the Tannoy subs suck pretty bad- Had one for a while and sold it when I upgraded to a Velodyne HGS-18II which is complete overkill but sounds just amazing....
Cheap subs can sometimes do more to hurt then help but a very good sub can help alot IMO...

[tINY]

A good set of headphones might be your best solution...



-tINY

[hollywood_steve]

I use the Beyer DT-770's as my low-end early warning system

A good set of headphones might be your best solution...


D'oh! I have my location/studio operations so completely divided that I almost never touch my Beyer headphones when I'm in the studio. On location I use the Beyers, at the studio I listen on speakers.

But as a *low-end early warning system*, my 770s should work, and there is zero cost or labor involved.