Building my project studio, advice.

[zer0ne]

Thanks in advance for those that help or comment.

I am a very beginning stage composer/writer that is trying to build a nice project studio and upgrade from my PC/002r based learning station.

Here is my current plan for the home studio that is/will run Logic. I mostly write and record midi with analog guitar tracks. No recording drums, just some possible vocals other than guitar/bass tracks. Am I missing anything important I should integrate? I had a 16k budget and this close to maxes it but could stretch if I really should get another piece of gear to bring it together. I plan on this investment being what I continue to learn with for a few years. I am hoping that in 6 months after a few more recording/mixing courses I don't find that I am missing a major component.

Logic Host - New MacPro 8core, 4gig, 4 500g drives

AD/DA - Rosetta 800 192 Symphony with X card

Monitor/headphone Control / Sum Bus - Dangerous Music D-box

Muse Receptor Komplete to offload plugin load for NI apps

SSL Duende PCIe for cheap yet decent channel and bus comp plugin

Mic Pre - Great River mp-2nv

Cheap logic functional Mixer for real fader feel - Euphonix MC control + 1 MC mix

Monitors - Adam A7

Simple mixing desk from Style and Function design

Mic - SM57

[Ubu4him]

This is by no means a cheap venture... you have some really nice hi end stuff your buying here.... sounds like your on the right track... the only thing i would suggest is put a little more money in to some mics and a little less on the hard drives on your computer... you should have one to run your OS one to record to... then you can back the files up on DVD's or an external hard drive.... and then get some more mics... a 57 is a good start.... i am really low end so i would say go for the knock off 57, OSP Dl-330 ... basically the same thing.... sound excellent .. but i dont know if it is the 57 .... but it is a good mic.... they come in 4 packs for 119. the kel hm-1's are good and anything by AT is awesome in my opinion.... SM7 would be a really good by ....
so screw the hard drives
and get a SM7b
SM57(or osp.... what ever you decide)
kel Hm-1's
and you will be off to a good start....
I would just hate to see you get all this nice stuff...... and then have just a 57 to record with.....

[Ubu4him]

and maybe build your own desk.... make it to fit your needs.. you might save a few for MICs

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by Ubu4him

I would just hate to see you get all this nice stuff...... and then have just a 57 to record with.....

That worries me as well. I could find another $500 for mic/s.

The time to but it would be now as I am getting 18% the entire order for this buy ordering through the university --> proxy sweetater.

[climber]

I would forget the Euphonix MC control & MC mix and get an Alpha Track & put the $ into mics. maybe a ribbon & good condenser. the 57 alone is not good enough. a good Rode or AT 40 series would be a good bet.

[aussie_techie]

is there a reason you need the Receptor? a the mac pro is going to have more than enough power for your needs, there just isnt any need to off load processing to another device.

[popmann]

Just guita nad vocal to accompany MIDI? Holy crap you have too much money. You want me to spend $16k for you on that? Make check payable to Popmann the Wise. ;)

For voice and guitar....plus MIDI/synths?

What are you using for MIDI/sound sources NOW? I'd just stay with what you've got. I'm not buying what your bottleneck is. What's the issue you have with your system now?

[Ubu4him]

Originally Posted by climber

I would forget the Euphonix MC control & MC mix and get an Alpha Track & put the $ into mics. maybe a ribbon & good condenser. the 57 alone is not good enough. a good Rode or AT 40 series would be a good bet.

is the alpha track good? i have always wondered about those small transport/fader things..... any way here is my suggestion..... if you really want the mc mix.... i would put off buying that... you can mix with a mouse just as well..... and it will get you to know your software really really well... spend that money on mics... youll have close to 3000 to spend on a great mic locker ... thats if you cut come hard drives like i said ... but i agree the MC mix looks sick i want one.... but you can mix with the mouse for a while till you have the dough..... you might want to look into some more preamps.... you could look into the Universal Audio SOLO/610.... will work great as a bass DI... you have a lot of synth based gear... but a project studio needs more than synth.... Logic is a powerful synth engine and you will have alot of nice sounds... Look into AT 3035 ... wonderful microphone..... you should get 2(400).... a 57 (100)... the OSP dl-330(120).... SM7b for a go to vocal mic (350)..... and get a matched pair of the kel Hm-1's for (300)
if you could make room of $1270 for microphones .. you will be set =] that is a great mic locker and you wont be dissapointed... cut the harddrives... and you might be at that price point already.

[climber]

Originally Posted by Ubu4him

is the alpha track good? i have always wondered about those small transport/fader things.....

I really like mine...

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by popmann

What are you using for MIDI/sound sources NOW? I'd just stay with what you've got. I'm not buying what your bottleneck is. What's the issue you have with your system now?

I have a whole slew of plugins issues, its a PC, and running PT LE. First I run out of tracks.

Then resource wise......I normally create 9-15 Reaktor instantiations which completely freezes up my current computer. I can get about 6 on current system then have to do track bounces, yet I keep tweaking them so it is a constant freeze track, bounce, unfreeze tweak, freeze bounce workflow. Quite annoying. I then use a bunch of soundtoys stuff, reason, and Ableton for beats via rewire and then waves for mxing. That is the reason for getting the Receptor and a new MacPro. I run heavy plugin modules that I create/program myself.

I plan on getting the Rosetta because the 002r ad/da is less than optimal sounding when I compared it with a borrowed Rosetta. That was a night and day difference.

Gtr tracks are both mic'd mesa boogie, Marshal JMP-1 direct, or NI Reaktor/GTR Rig 3 instances.

Single channel would look something like, then times that by 9 for other midi or gtr instantiations:

Reaktor
Echoboy
Filterfreak
Trash
SSL Channel dynamics

Then finally throw in a BDF 2 instance for good measure and some real drum sounding fills to set into the programmed beats. The rest of the tracks are just simple audio samples, loops, etc, etc.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

Thanks in advance for those that help or comment.

I am a very beginning stage composer/writer that is trying to build a nice project studio and upgrade from my PC/002r based learning station.

Here is my current plan for the home studio that is/will run Logic. I mostly write and record midi with analog guitar tracks. No recording drums, just some possible vocals other than guitar/bass tracks. Am I missing anything important I should integrate? I had a 16k budget and this close to maxes it but could stretch if I really should get another piece of gear to bring it together. I plan on this investment being what I continue to learn with for a few years. I am hoping that in 6 months after a few more recording/mixing courses I don't find that I am missing a major component.

Logic Host - New MacPro 8core, 4gig, 4 500g drives

AD/DA - Rosetta 800 192 Symphony with X card

Monitor/headphone Control / Sum Bus - Dangerous Music D-box

Muse Receptor Komplete to offload plugin load for NI apps

SSL Duende PCIe for cheap yet decent channel and bus comp plugin

Mic Pre - Great River mp-2nv

Cheap logic functional Mixer for real fader feel - Euphonix MC control + 1 MC mix

Monitors - Adam A7

Simple mixing desk from Style and Function design

Mic - SM57

Hum sounds like you're going to have a nice setup. The Logic - Rosetta - ensemble is a great combo. I'd go with a Presonus Central station instead of the D-Box. Summing only 8 channels is only a gimmick imo, and the analoge path for the monitor controls are probably the same. Skip the Muse. The Mac has 5 X more power than you'll probably ever need. Get the Komplete 5 (they're currently having a sell!). The Great River Pre is a great choice. You'll want some nice (but not too expensive) vocal mics. I'd get a AT 4050 and a Rode K2. With those 2 you can cover a lot of ground and get great acoustic guitars also. If you're micing cabs an AT 4047 is the obvious choice and they're pretty cheap. I'd pass on the Duende. Start with a Waves Musicians II bundle (that'll take you a long way). Maybe also PSP Vintage Warmer and Mastercomp for the 2 buss. You might think about BFD or Superior for your Drums. If you use acoustic pianos a lot in your tunes you would enjoy Ivory. You won't need the mixer. Just get the Euphonix or Mackie control pro. Adams are great also.

Good luck

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

Hum sounds like you're going to have a nice setup. The Logic - Rosetta - ensemble is a great combo. I'd go with a Presonus Central station instead of the D-Box. Summing only 8 channels is only a gimmick imo, and the analoge path for the monitor controls are probably the same. Skip the Muse. The Mac has 5 X more power than you'll probably ever need. Get the Komplete 5 (they're currently having a sell!). The Great River Pre is a great choice. You'll want some nice (but not too expensive) vocal mics. I'd get a AT 4050 and a Rode K2. With those 2 you can cover a lot of ground and get great acoustic guitars also. If you're micing cabs an AT 4047 is the obvious choice and they're pretty cheap. I'd pass on the Duende. Start with a Waves Musicians II bundle (that'll take you a long way). Maybe also PSP Vintage Warmer and Mastercomp for the 2 buss. You might think about BFD or Superior for your Drums. If you use acoustic pianos a lot in your tunes you would enjoy Ivory. You won't need the mixer. Just get the Euphonix or Mackie control pro. Adams are great also.

Good luck

Good advice, thanks. Def looking at the AT and the K2.

Would love you to expand on your "8 chn summing is a gimmick" comment. They really sold me hard on what this device does and I def don't want to make a bad purchase.

[drBill]

First - resist the urge to spend your wad all at once, regardless of discounts, deals, etc. Only by doing and experience will you realize what you really need to buy. Buying a bunch of stuff all up front has only resulted in "shoulda, coulda, woulda" regrets for me - and many others.

Next - why a dual pre when you only have one mic?? I'd say a single channel of pre is probably OK for 98% of what you say you're going to do. Then put the rest into mics as many others have said.

Realistically, a stereo AD/DA is probably all you will ever need until you get to the drum or rhythm section tracking stage.

Personally, I'd blow off the summing box. Every clip I've heard and any experience and testing I've done with summing externally (shy of vintage Neve's and such with LOTS of transformers and IRON in he path) have resulted with me staying ITB instead of using the external summing. I'm sure many will argue otherwise though..... If you really want an external box for headphones, CRM etc., a cheap mackie 12 channel mixer will do the job for $100 or so.

Forget the Euphonix controllers. A mouse - or better yet - trackball will do the same thing. And it's a lot cheaper.

IMO there's a lot better and cheaper ways to go than Duende.

Now, take 50% of what you were going to spend and find a secure way to invest it. That is perhaps the best advice I can give you. You are going to need it for future gear that you will inevidably find you need, and more importantly, you will use it to buy gear when everyone else is selling because they overbought in an economy that is collapsing. Or maybe for a house downpayment. (Real estate is the ONLY thing that has saved MANY, MANY of us,,,,,)

Good luck.

bp

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by drBill

Now, take 50% of what you were going to spend and find a secure way to invest it. That is perhaps the best advice I can give you. You are going to need it for future gear that you will inevidably find you need, and more importantly, you will use it to buy gear when everyone else is selling because they overbought in an economy that is collapsing. Or maybe for a house downpayment. (Real estate is the ONLY thing that has saved MANY, MANY of us,,,,,)

Good luck.

bp

I appreciate that, however money is not the issue. I am an owner of a very successful marketing company. Own my house, cars, and have investments. I am looking to upgrade my hobby into something that will last me for a few years (3-4), not pinch pennies necessarily (also don't want to throw good money out the window).

I would have to argue the cheap mackie mixer. While in stores I have routed some audio out of them and IMO it degrades it when coming from a quality source. Why a 2 channel pre? I plan on being able to track more than one thing over the next year or so. Once again I want to buy into a setup I can continue to grow into, not out of.

I have come to a strong realization however that I do need to majorly increase the mic spend. So for now, I plan to drop the receptor and take that $1,500 back into mics. Duende is now on the verge of getting axed as well.

I went back today to a pro-audio store and re-visited the Euphonix, its staying. To me I really love the having what feels like a real mixing console for with 12 faders for under 2k. I like having my hands on faders and the HUI/MIDI controllers just have too much latency for me. The Euphonix controlles really do have a good feel and a lot of control.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

Good advice, thanks. Def looking at the AT and the K2.

Would love you to expand on your "8 chn summing is a gimmick" comment. They really sold me hard on what this device does and I def don't want to make a bad purchase.

Probably 50-80% of pros will say that digital (in the box) summing is just as good as analoge summing. It is a matter of opinion. Those who are sold on the analoge summing usually do it for the coloration of a particular device (the d box is reputated a very uncolored unit), the headroom, and liking a analoge stereo compressor on the stereo out 1-2.

I say the d box is a gimmick because summing less than 16 channels won't do that much for you. Most pros who go that route do 24, 32 or more on a big console. Then there's the DA conversion (the tracks are 0's and 1's - digital - in your computer. To sum in analoge you have to convert them back to analoge, then convert that back to digital. The Rosetta's very good but you will hear a slight degradation of the sound in doing so.

That's alright for a mixing engineer to go that route (and they usually spend at least 10K - in the summer, the better convertors and the compressor - to do it) but for a composer that's far from what you need and where your energy should be.

Don't buy into it. The Mackie big knob OTOH is too cheap and will degrade your sound. The Central Station is a good compromise.

As a writer, you should spend more on virtual instruments than on eq's, compressors, and other gimmicks. Majestic is great for Bass. You may also want the Sound Toys stuff if that does what you need. Get a nice verb also. Look at CSR from IK multimedia or better yet a Lexi outboard verb. You can get a Lexi pcm 91 for around $1200 and That will set your stuff apart. You'll also want Melodyne for sure and I'd suggest getting the symphony system for your Rosetta, its money well spent.

If you do acoutic guitars a pair of Peluso CM6's would be great for when you want to record in stereo. And the more you can spend on speakers the better.

I'd also suggest getting a large (32 inch) screen like a Samsung. Plus room treatment..... It's never ending but lots of fun.

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

Probably 50-80% of pros will say that digital (in the box) summing is just as good as analoge summing. It is a matter of opinion. Those who are sold on the analoge summing usually do it for the coloration of a particular device (the d box is reputated a very uncolored unit), the headroom, and liking a analoge stereo compressor on the stereo out 1-2.

I say the d box is a gimmick because summing less than 16 channels won't do that much for you. Most pros who go that route do 24, 32 or more on a big console. Then there's the DA conversion (the tracks are 0's and 1's - digital - in your computer. To sum in analoge you have to convert them back to analoge, then convert that back to digital. The Rosetta's very good but you will hear a slight degradation of the sound in doing so.

That's alright for a mixing engineer to go that route (and they usually spend at least 10K - in the summer, the better convertors and the compressor - to do it) but for a composer that's far from what you need and where your energy should be.

Don't buy into it. The Mackie big knob OTOH is too cheap and will degrade your sound. The Central Station is a good compromise.

As a writer, you should spend more on virtual instruments than on eq's, compressors, and other gimmicks. Majestic is great for Bass. You may also want the Sound Toys stuff if that does what you need. Get a nice verb also. Look at CSR from IK multimedia or better yet a Lexi outboard verb. You can get a Lexi pcm 91 for around $1200 and That will set your stuff apart. You'll also want Melodyne for sure and I'd suggest getting the symphony system for your Rosetta, its money well spent.

If you do acoutic guitars a pair of Peluso CM6's would be great for when you want to record in stereo. And the more you can spend on speakers the better.

I'd also suggest getting a large (32 inch) screen like a Samsung. Plus room treatment..... It's never ending but lots of fun.

Very much appreciated! That makes sense now. Its gone, the central station looks good to go and saves me close to a grand. Symphony was part of the original quote. Def getting that.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

I appreciate that, however money is not the issue. I am an owner of a very successful marketing company. Own my house, cars, and have investments.

Well why didn't' you say so?!?!?!? Let's take that $16k investment and quadruple it!!! Then we're talkin'! lol

(For some reason I thought you were a starving student......sorry. )

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by drBill

Well why didn't' you say so?!?!?!? Let's take that $16k investment and quadruple it!!! Then we're talkin'! lol

(For some reason I thought you were a starving student......sorry. )

Can you call the wife.......you get her to agree and you can pick a piece of gear. ha She calls the music room the "money pit". Does not have a musical bone in her body. (likes the Paris Hilton album)

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

better yet a Lexi outboard verb.

They would sell me a demo Lexi PCM96 for $1900. thoughts? Seems like a huge addition being able to run it in VST mode vs sitting in front of my rack tweaking knobs. Reviews seem quite good.

Then the AT and K2 mics.

[t_d]

looks like you're going to have a great, well-researched setup... great :)


in my opinion...i'd skip the Receptor, too... i think the Mac Pro will do you very well in that department... *OR*... get the mac first, work with it, run it thru the paces with your reaktor ensembles and SEE if you need the Receptor... if you do, grab it.. if not, you've got money to put elsewhere.

also, i don't think you need 4 hard drives on the mac... i'd definitely recommend one extra 500gb harddrive... other than the startup drive.. maybe one more.. but not 4 total... a bit overkill, i think.

if you were looking at the D-box because of its summing features (among other things).. because you're looking for some 'analog vibe'.... i agree with others... ditch it and get the central station.. and then, if it is the analog vibe you're going for.. put money you've shaved off elsewhere into maybe a 2-bus piece of outboard gear.. like an API-2500 compressor or pair of distressors, or something like that..

also.. i don't see any mention of room treatments...? bass traps? reflection control?

looks like you'll have a fun system, though!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

Can you call the wife.......you get her to agree and you can pick a piece of gear. ha She calls the music room the "money pit". Does not have a musical bone in her body. (likes the Paris Hilton album)

LOL Tell her it's what keeps you sane, and that she doesn't want to know what you're like without music in your life. If the music goes badly (cheap, non-existant, not enough or the wrong gear) and you can't get what you need......your only recourse is partying with your long lost high school dropout buddies or racing NASCAR - her choice. That out to take care of it!

Originally Posted by zer0ne

They would sell me a demo Lexi PCM96 for $1900. thoughts? Seems like a huge addition being able to run it in VST mode vs sitting in front of my rack tweaking knobs. Reviews seem quite good..

Just ordered one myself today.

[muziksculp]

The ADAM A-7's sound fantastic !

One more suggestion ... If you want a fuller low freq. spectrum sound, and I mean you really want to get a very rich, and full sound spectrum, with a great natural timbre, then I would highly recommend you add the ADAM Sub-10 subwoofer to the A-7's (not cheap), but, the Sub-10 made a huge impact on my studio's monitoring sound quality.

A pair of ADAM A-7's, and an ADAM Sub-10 subwoofer, has been the best money I spent on my project studio. You won't regret it !

Hope this helps.

[zer0ne]

Originally Posted by muziksculp

The ADAM A-7's sound fantastic !


A pair of ADAM A-7's, and an ADAM Sub-10 subwoofer, has been the best money I spent on my project studio. You won't regret it !

Hope this helps.

Thanks, current I have a Rokit 10 sub. Wonder if that would make due for the time being with the A7's.

[muziksculp]

I guess you can begin by testing the Rokit sub 10 along with the A-7's, see how that goes, but remember, you get what you pay for.

The Adam Sub-10 is listed for $1349. compared to the price of the Rokit sub 10, around $299. There must be a quality factor you're paying that additional $1000 for.

[zer0ne]

Thanks for everyones help, the order has been placed. Thanks for everyone help in trimming the fat.

MacPro 8core, 4gig, 3 500g drives with logic studio

AD/DA - Rosetta 800 192 with Symphony card

Monitor/headphone Control - Central Station

Mic Pre - Great River mp-2nv

Euphonix MC control + 1 MC mix

Monitors - Adam A7

Lexicon PCM96

Mics - SM57, SM7b , Rode K2, and AT 4050

$13,584

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

They would sell me a demo Lexi PCM96 for $1900. thoughts?

Jump on it !

[jeremynothman]

Originally Posted by zer0ne

Thanks for everyones help, the order has been placed.
MacPro 8core, 4gig, 3 500g drives with logic studio

Oh really?

Poor boy - if you are paying apple prices on RAM or HDDs you are getting your pockets emptied for you, free of charge.

RAM costs about $120/2GB stick, RETAIL - you can buy it from apple for the special price of $400/stick!

Same goes for HDDs - they put about 200% on the cost of HDDs