Bad players, bad tones,...good mix?! No way!

[peeder]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

So has anyone had to deal with bad tones and players? examples are; not one song or even verse for that matter is played with out dozens of punch-in's, especially vocals, bad snare sound, horrible bas tones. Is it the enginneers fault? I have only experience with these kinds of musicians. Does it get better?

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

[James Meeker]

Only one experience?

You must have just started. Expect to do hundreds, maybe if you're lucky THOUSANDS of crap bands. That's okay, because crap bands weed out the weak and make the strong hungry. Honestly, if you're just beginning you don't deserve a good band. Not yet anyways.

Who's fault is it? It's not really about that. Just let it be known that most engineers regularly work with clients that are very near their own level. If every band that comes to you sucks beyond belief, that is a fair estimate of your abilities.... or at least your reputation.

[Newcleardaze]

Recorded a grindcore band awhile back. I don't think they even listened or knew what each other was doing, because every take was totally different. I just left thigns as they were and they were happy with it.

I've taken the time to really make some crappy bands shine, but I also do it by the hour. I show them what I can do to what they've already recorded and get their OK with an understanding of how long it might take... they've always been happy with the outcome, even when it costs them a left nut. They're generally thrilled that "they" sound so great and end up sending their friends to me.
In the end, the really good bands seem like such a breeze to record.

[Barnabas]

I've made some really crappy bands sound good.

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Only one experience?

You must have just started. Expect to do hundreds, maybe if you're lucky THOUSANDS of crap bands. That's okay, because crap bands weed out the weak and make the strong hungry. Honestly, if you're just beginning you don't deserve a good band. Not yet anyways.

Who's fault is it? It's not really about that. Just let it be known that most engineers regularly work with clients that are very near their own level. If every band that comes to you sucks beyond belief, that is a fair estimate of your abilities.... or at least your reputation.

Amen to that, eh? Guess its due-payin time! Woo-Hoo! It must take a few bad ones before the light shines, i know what i like... sort of, but trying to emulate or reproduce it is the hard part, but i bet you guys didn't sound like Bruce Swedien when you first started. The band and/or players must have something to do with the over-all sound of the record. Thanx all for the responses.

[NuClone]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

...especially vocals, bad snare sound, horrible bas tones. Is it the enginneers fault? ...

Persevere, it does get better. It's not the engineers fault if the band has tonal issues, but if the recording sounds bad you are going to get the blame. Consider this, a mentor once told me that part of the engineers job is to make clients sound better than what they are regardless of their skill level. In the same light, it also helps to accept people for who they are and what they are capable of doing - there are even those who appreciate raw organic sounding music. If you are producing in addition to engineering then you should have some say, if not more, about how things should sound. Otherwise, if a band is paying you to recording and mix them, then you may have to take it as it. Always emphasize to clients, to come to session WELL REHEARSED and prepared as this will cut down on overdubs.

Bad tones? Dealing with bad tones can be a dark art, but it can be done. Of course, scooped mid-range on a guitar may be the sound the client likes.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

It must take a few bad ones before the light shines,

It takes more than a few, unless you are talking about a few hundred. This isn't a good job field for people into instant gratification.

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

i know what i like... sort of, but trying to emulate or reproduce it is the hard part,

Well that would be the trick eh?

Sadly, the band can claim the same thing.

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

but i bet you guys didn't sound like Bruce Swedien when you first started.

Bruce Swedien didn't sound like Bruce Swedien when he started either. What's the point?

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

The band and/or players must have something to do with the over-all sound of the record.

Of course. That's why I said one's clients are a fair estimate of one's abilities and standing. If you don't like who you are recording, GET BETTER!

[donsolo]

I've been at this for a while (8 years). It's not my full-time living. I've gotten to work with some really tremendous musicians and some really aweful ones.

Even after you get better, the bad ones still come through. But that's good. If bands are coming to you rather than you going to them, you're already a step ahead of many producer/engineers. Your reputation and your abilities are rarely equal. Good news spreads like molases, bad news spreads like wildfire. Always make sure you give it 110% even if you don't enjoy the band. If you are good, good things will happen. If you aren't, work on getting good so good things can happen. Just because you're good doesn't mean good things are guaranteed to happen but if you're not good, good things won't happen.

To directly address your original question though, you need to find out if you're just the guy puting up the microphones, pressing record and mixing or if you're their producer. If you're their producer, you need to really put on that producer hat and really try to make the song sound good in the room before you put microphones up. Ask them to make some changes to see if they enjoy the song better with these new settings. Try to borrow/rent some different equipment. I lend my stuff to my buddy all the time when bands need different sounds.

If the band shows up with crate solid state amps and squier guitars, it's just indicative of the level they are at musically. Not EVERYONE who plays a squire sucks but most beginners play cheap instruments and cheap instruments sound...cheap(Silvertones and other cool vintage stuff can be had cheap but don't sound it). A good instrument can really inspire some players to kick it up a notch and really play. Amplifiers are easier to borrow though (I never lend out guitars).

So the equipment would be my first point of attack. Also, drop DI boxes on all of the amplified instruments and reamp later if needed. Don't be afraid to do this. Sometimes you get a guitar player who tells you their "sound" comes from this amp and that guitar and these pedals. I am going to tell you this (with 100% humility and honesty) that your sound comes from your hands, your note selection and the way you inflect while playing. Hendrix would still sound like hendrix on a Les Paul, a Strat, a Tele, an ES-335 run through a bass amp.

Maybe try software solutions. Guitar Rig is a great program for blending with a recorded sound. Guitar Rig 2 had some good bass options (though a bass through a sansamp kills it any day of the week in my opinion).

Drums are a different deal. If they sound like crap in the room, they'll sound like crap on the record. Look into renting a great kit for the recording day. Always use new heads (yes, it costs money). Have the drummer try different size sticks (Small sticks actually give more sustain I find) and don't be afraid to do drum replacement if needed. They pay you to sound good. There isn't an ethical dilemma if your goal is a good sound.

Keyboards are headaches, always. Just borrow other keyboards, take midi data and try other sounds. A cheap roland performance piano is not going to sound like a Phantom. And software really shines in this dept as hard drive space is so cheap these days you can have 500gb libraries of sounds without blinking an eye.

Performance issues (punch ins, quantizing, take after take, false starts) all need to be addressed before the band sets foot inside the studio. If you are their producer, show up to rehearsals. Tell them where things get sloppy. Rehearse the hell out of it before you put up a microphone. Bands these days expect you to "fix it in the mix" but you can't fix a sloppy performance 100% of the time. If it's really tight live and not happening in the studio, turn the lights down, record the band as a whole and stop trying to do everything in overdub (lay down additional overdubs later or even replace every single bit but get the vibe happening right away)

Vocals are just the bane of everyone's existence. They require many, many takes, usually an autotuner (or melodyne), lots of editing and a lot of automation with the volume fader. This is just a fact of life. The sooner you accept that, the happier you will be. Many people THINK they can sing and very few (including most on the radio) actually can. But they pay you to make it sound like the can.

I hope my advise while somewhat longwinded, was helpful. Understanding that these issues exist (with the band) is more than half the battle when it comes to improving them.

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I've been at this for a while (8 years). It's not my full-time living. I've gotten to work with some really tremendous musicians and some really aweful ones.

Even after you get better, the bad ones still come through. But that's good. If bands are coming to you rather than you going to them, you're already a step ahead of many producer/engineers. Your reputation and your abilities are rarely equal. Good news spreads like molases, bad news spreads like wildfire. Always make sure you give it 110% even if you don't enjoy the band. If you are good, good things will happen. If you aren't, work on getting good so good things can happen. Just because you're good doesn't mean good things are guaranteed to happen but if you're not good, good things won't happen.

To directly address your original question though, you need to find out if you're just the guy puting up the microphones, pressing record and mixing or if you're their producer. If you're their producer, you need to really put on that producer hat and really try to make the song sound good in the room before you put microphones up. Ask them to make some changes to see if they enjoy the song better with these new settings. Try to borrow/rent some different equipment. I lend my stuff to my buddy all the time when bands need different sounds.

If the band shows up with crate solid state amps and squier guitars, it's just indicative of the level they are at musically. Not EVERYONE who plays a squire sucks but most beginners play cheap instruments and cheap instruments sound...cheap(Silvertones and other cool vintage stuff can be had cheap but don't sound it). A good instrument can really inspire some players to kick it up a notch and really play. Amplifiers are easier to borrow though (I never lend out guitars).

So the equipment would be my first point of attack. Also, drop DI boxes on all of the amplified instruments and reamp later if needed. Don't be afraid to do this. Sometimes you get a guitar player who tells you their "sound" comes from this amp and that guitar and these pedals. I am going to tell you this (with 100% humility and honesty) that your sound comes from your hands, your note selection and the way you inflect while playing. Hendrix would still sound like hendrix on a Les Paul, a Strat, a Tele, an ES-335 run through a bass amp.

Maybe try software solutions. Guitar Rig is a great program for blending with a recorded sound. Guitar Rig 2 had some good bass options (though a bass through a sansamp kills it any day of the week in my opinion).

Drums are a different deal. If they sound like crap in the room, they'll sound like crap on the record. Look into renting a great kit for the recording day. Always use new heads (yes, it costs money). Have the drummer try different size sticks (Small sticks actually give more sustain I find) and don't be afraid to do drum replacement if needed. They pay you to sound good. There isn't an ethical dilemma if your goal is a good sound.

Keyboards are headaches, always. Just borrow other keyboards, take midi data and try other sounds. A cheap roland performance piano is not going to sound like a Phantom. And software really shines in this dept as hard drive space is so cheap these days you can have 500gb libraries of sounds without blinking an eye.

Performance issues (punch ins, quantizing, take after take, false starts) all need to be addressed before the band sets foot inside the studio. If you are their producer, show up to rehearsals. Tell them where things get sloppy. Rehearse the hell out of it before you put up a microphone. Bands these days expect you to "fix it in the mix" but you can't fix a sloppy performance 100% of the time. If it's really tight live and not happening in the studio, turn the lights down, record the band as a whole and stop trying to do everything in overdub (lay down additional overdubs later or even replace every single bit but get the vibe happening right away)

Vocals are just the bane of everyone's existence. They require many, many takes, usually an autotuner (or melodyne), lots of editing and a lot of automation with the volume fader. This is just a fact of life. The sooner you accept that, the happier you will be. Many people THINK they can sing and very few (including most on the radio) actually can. But they pay you to make it sound like the can.

I hope my advise while somewhat longwinded, was helpful. Understanding that these issues exist (with the band) is more than half the battle when it comes to improving them.

Finally...someone with some intellegent insight! Actual examples and great advice! Thanx so much. You are a true engineer, a real asset to those who will be taking your job when you can't hear anymore...LOL! It gets sickening when a noob like myself asks questions to those more established (or full of themselves...your choice), especially when a noob like myself can't got to the guy in the next room and ask any question he wants about anything to someone who shows them how to do everthing!! Bravo Donsolo, you truly rock. And, may the force be with you!

[ToneHack]

Right on the Money Donsolo! Being somewhat a noob myself (2 years) I've had the fortune--in my opinion-- of watching and assisting as many sessions have gone horribly wrong (fortunate because I wasn't getting any of the blame!) Sometimes the musicians refuse to change their music sonically, sometimes they don't know any better, sometimes they have absolutely no studio etiquette or know what it's really like to record in a studio other than what they think they know and see on television, sometimes they think it's a great time to invite all their homies and smoke blunts in the control room for 3 hours, lay down one vocal take and call it a day, and sometimes they just plain suck at what they do. Unless you are helping produce or are the producer, there's not much you can do. What you CAN do is polish that turd til it shines. Accept it. You're going to get those bands and artists that need some "help." And as Meeker said, if you're new, you don't deserve a good band yet. Until you REALLY know what absolute shit sounds like and then having to fix, polish, tweak, re-tweak, scrap, start over, recall, tweak more, fix again, recall again, tweak and tweak til your eyes can't open and your ears are bleeding from listening to what could have only come somewhere between the 5th and 6th circle of hell over and over and OVER, ALL while carrying the responsibility/accountability weight on YOUR shoulders...there's no way you can appreciate a great sounding, professional/musician/client. Going through all that BS also gives you the power to immediately know the professional musicians from the wannabes and knowing the right hoops to make them jump through to get a session moving. When you've been in the deepest valley, you'll know how great it is to be on the highest mountain. Don't worry, not every band sounds like shit. But if you don't improve your skills, you'll never get those calls that hook you up with the good bands. So in the meantime, polish those turds with every ounce of effort. Due-payin' time is right.

[basmartin]

Read this? The Daily Adventures of Mixerman | Welcome

[ToneHack]

Originally Posted by basmartin

Read this? The Daily Adventures of Mixerman | Welcome

Yes! I have this book! Definitely worth a read for anyone choosing this as a career path. Hilarious and insightful.

[Spotty]

[QUOTE

Who's fault is it? It's not really about that. Just let it be known that most engineers regularly work with clients that are very near their own level. If every band that comes to you sucks beyond belief, that is a fair estimate of your abilities.... or at least your reputation.[/QUOTE]


So....this would imply that the engineers working with million selling formulaic popacts either have very little abilities or that those acts are very talented and skilled, as they show when performing live...right?

[edwonbass]

Originally Posted by basmartin

Read this? The Daily Adventures of Mixerman | Welcome

I have only read day one so far but it is very entertaining! Thanks for the link!

[namsabnek]

It's way easier to work with good tones and good players. The only positive thing that can happen mixing bad sounding musicians is that you develop a large repertoire of tricks and techniques to at least make them sound passable and you get to learn how to use your tools in extreme situations. This will help turn you into a better engineer in the long run and the day a good player comes along you will be ready for them...

[Musiclab]

it's rare that bad players ever make good sounds, you could be Elliott Scheiner, Al Schmitt, Andy Wallace and the the Alge brothers combined and you will never get a great sound out of a lousy drummer. BUT recording bad musicians can be an opportunity to learn, so use it.

[lionaudio]

Recording terrible bands is part of the learning process. The better you get, the better your clients get. Struggling to make bad players sound better is what will make you push yourself and your gear to it's limits. Then by the time the good bands come around, you will know exactly which pieces of gear have certain strengths and weaknesses. That being said, it's important to clarify beforehand if you are producing, engineering, or both. If you're producing, then it's agreed that you have a vote on better tone, performance, etc.. If you're engineering, then it's up to the band/ producer to say that was the keeper take, or the right sound. Eventually you will get to a point where you may start turning down bands that you don't want your name on their album. That might be a long time from now, but stick with it and hopefully you will get to a point where you have so much interest that you can pick and choose. Until then, aspirin, and maybe a good hobby like target shooting will help you get through the bad stuff

[JeromyReno]

I find myself hammering them realy hard, and forcing them to take it serious. I also let them know in the beginning that there work will also represent me any my abilitys just as much as mine will reflect there's and where in it together so I'm pushing them for our greater good. In the end they will thank you for not letting them slack and everyone ends up happy. Not all genres are pretty, well structured, or even musical. That goes for all art forms, I personaly hate splatter paintings, it's not artistic to me at all but to others it's there expression and they live for it.

As long as they are happy I'm happy

but if god keeps giving you lemons, and you don't know how to make lemonade, find a new god.