Heil PR30/35 vs. SM-7b

[jaz49]

Just wondering how they compare (on vocals only). Anyone use/used them both? The only reason I ask is that the PR30 is about $100 cheaper, and my budget is a little stretched at the moment. Thanks

[shortyprs]

A PR35 is due in tomorrow. I've already pulled out my trusted sm7b and an m88gt for comparison. I'll gladly post opinions once I actually know something.

[uncle duncan]

Have you checked out the frequency response graphs on the manufacturer's websites? The SM7 has significant peaks at 5k and 6k, and a significant dip at 7 - 8k; then it comes back to zero at 10k. The Heil is virtually flat, with a little bump at around 4k. Although these graphs don't tell you exactly how a mic is going to sound, they do indicate that the SM7 would have more character, in that there's a bigger bump at 5k; and it shows the the SM7 might have less sibilance, because of the big dip at 7 - 8k. The Heil looks like it would sound a little more natural, perhaps flattering a female vocal more than the SM7 would. Or perhaps you'd want the Heil for one singer and the SM7 for another - or use the SM7 for lead vocal and the Heil for BG's.

What does it all mean? You need both!

[jaz49]

shortyprs - I'll definitely be looking forward to hearing your take on all three mics tomorrow.


Uncle duncan - thanks for the frequency response numbers. Less sibilance is definitely good. But subjectively, how do they compare? What do your ears tell you when you hear a side by side comparison... warm, harsh, smooth, brittle, crisp, detailed, natural, that kind of thing.

http://www.myspace.com/lejaz

[uncle duncan]

I put the SM7b up next to a Heil Pr20, which appears to have virtually the same response curve as the PR35, although I think the PR35 reduces the proximity affect. The proximity affect on the PR20 is major. In spite of that, to compare the sound - the SM7b does have more character, more of a sculpted sound, the PR20 is more natural sounding. I would say the PR20 or 35 would be more appropriate for vocals in acoustic music or chick singers who are a little in-your-face, the SM7 would be more of a rock & roll mic. Sibilance was not an issue with either.

I tried the SM7b on my baritone vocal through five different preamps. My choice, with the vocal in a mix, was:

Phoenix Audio DRS-1. This preamp totally nails the sound - beefy lows, sizzly highs. It sounds like a record. I was trying to sell this baby a while back, but no more.

AEA TRP - a little more precise and detailed than the DRS-1. This was my choice, until I fired up the DRS.

DAV - nice, smooth, probably more appropriate for an acoustic track

EM Blue - this is a character preamp with transformers, but it didn't really light the SM7b on fire. It does light some condenser mics on fire though.

Sytek clean channel - inspite of the clean thing, this was the least defined of the bunch, with a sort of messy top end. That's surprising, since it sounds nice with condenser mics on acoustic guitars and such. (Could be the messy high end was the result of more highs above 10k, something old guys like me have trouble with.)

Out of all these preamps, there was no problem whatsoever with gain. This was with me right up on the mic, singing quite softly. Okay, no problem means there was at least one click to spare, or in the case of the AEA TRP, three clicks to spare.

I also put up my Heil PR40, and it sounded more scooped/hyped than the other two mics. I would probably choose the PR40 for a more mellow-voiced singer, or use it on instruments, which I do quite regularly. The PR40 seems to work well on nylon string guitars, which is a tough instrument to get to cut through a mix without sounding all scratchy. In fact, I generally use a modded oktava 319 on the neck, and the PR40 on the bridge, getting tone without harshness out of the 319, and presence and attack out of the PR40.

As I said in my earlier post, the only solution is to get both the SM7b and the PR35, since they compliment each other in different ways. And then get a Phoenix Audio DRS-1, or an AEA TRP, but you ain't gettin' mine.

[shortyprs]

Pr35 came in yesterday afternoon. It was too late for a serious test, but I did a quick comparison and then took it to band practice.

In the quick test I threw up the PR35 against an sm7b and an m88. I used each mic into a Pacifica with the same cable, same position, to keep these pretty equal. Impressions so far:

1. All three mics are in the same ballpark of quality, just with different voicings.
2. My voice prefers the m88, but that can be just what my ears are used to. I've used one live for years.
3. The m88 and PR35 are more similar than either with the sm7b.
4. I kinda get the "condenser-like" description of the PR35, but the first impression was that it has a hype to it or some kinda scoop up between 800-1,000hz.
5. With each listen, I change my mind and think the PR35 is pretty flat but a slight hair more detailed and the upper end rise into the Pacifica doesn't like my voice.

I've got to do what Uncle Duncan did and run it through my other pres.

Results of taking it to band practice:

1. No one noticed that I had a new mic.
2. I noticed that I could hear myself better in the mix. My buddy's sound system is usually a wall of mud covered in reverb. I usually can't hear my voice well at all. This time, I could hear myself better across the spectrum, but I wasn't turned up in the mix.
3. This thing has great rear and side rejection.

I can see why folks love this mic for live work.


I've got a new tracking session and a gig scheduled this weekend. After that, I should have something more useful to say.

[jaz49]

shortyprs and uncle duncan thanks...very helpful! Really glad to hear there's no sibilance issues...usually a big problem for me. Sounds like I might even consider the PR40 since I'm a pretty quiet singer. I heard some audio clips of the PR20 but didn't care much for it...not at all condenser-like to my ears...sounded more like a typical dynamic. I think the PR30 or 40 are supposed to be better...i.e., more condenser like. Supposedly Joan Baez and Joe Walsh are using the PR35 live, for what that's worth. I'm leaning towards that one at the moment. And I'm waiting on a possible mod of my mk219. It's definitely got issues as it is, but a friend who used to do TV repairs may try to mod it for me. So, until I find something better I'm stuck with my AT3035 for now.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I put the SM7b up next to a Heil Pr20, which appears to have virtually the same response curve as the PR35, although I think the PR35 reduces the proximity affect. The proximity affect on the PR20 is major. In spite of that, to compare the sound - the SM7b does have more character, more of a sculpted sound, the PR20 is more natural sounding. I would say the PR20 or 35 would be more appropriate for vocals in acoustic music or chick singers who are a little in-your-face, the SM7 would be more of a rock & roll mic. Sibilance was not an issue with either.

I tried the SM7b on my baritone vocal through five different preamps. My choice, with the vocal in a mix, was:

Phoenix Audio DRS-1. This preamp totally nails the sound - beefy lows, sizzly highs. It sounds like a record. I was trying to sell this baby a while back, but no more.

AEA TRP - a little more precise and detailed than the DRS-1. This was my choice, until I fired up the DRS.

DAV - nice, smooth, probably more appropriate for an acoustic track

EM Blue - this is a character preamp with transformers, but it didn't really light the SM7b on fire. It does light some condenser mics on fire though.

Sytek clean channel - inspite of the clean thing, this was the least defined of the bunch, with a sort of messy top end. That's surprising, since it sounds nice with condenser mics on acoustic guitars and such. (Could be the messy high end was the result of more highs above 10k, something old guys like me have trouble with.)

Out of all these preamps, there was no problem whatsoever with gain. This was with me right up on the mic, singing quite softly. Okay, no problem means there was at least one click to spare, or in the case of the AEA TRP, three clicks to spare.

I also put up my Heil PR40, and it sounded more scooped/hyped than the other two mics. I would probably choose the PR40 for a more mellow-voiced singer, or use it on instruments, which I do quite regularly. The PR40 seems to work well on nylon string guitars, which is a tough instrument to get to cut through a mix without sounding all scratchy. In fact, I generally use a modded oktava 319 on the neck, and the PR40 on the bridge, getting tone without harshness out of the 319, and presence and attack out of the PR40.

As I said in my earlier post, the only solution is to get both the SM7b and the PR35, since they compliment each other in different ways. And then get a Phoenix Audio DRS-1, or an AEA TRP, but you ain't gettin' mine.

These are really accurate descriptions... well-said.

The PR40 is definitely the more balanced of the 3 models (20, 30, and 40) and it can definitely be a task to record nylon strings without it being a little scratchy in the mids and grainy in the high's and that just complicates matters when you try to add a little ambient reverb later in the mix. The quality of Heil mics lessens some of the problems you get from nylon strings with [some] other mics in that $$ range. I like the 30 alot because the mids are aggressive, bottom end is open and ballsy, upper mids are bright and the high's are really crisp without being brittle. The 40 is a balance between the 30 and the 20 IMO, making it more of a "swiss army knife" kinda mic; meaning it can do a variety of things really well.

[shortyprs]

I played around with the PR35 through an A-Designs MP-2. I can now say, unequivocally, that the PR35 and the MP2 are in love. They asked for a room together. The MP2 did its tube magic of warming and rounding the high end crispy on my voice. Tube pre lovers, this might be a nice alternative to the sm7b.

[jaz49]

Originally Posted by shortyprs

I played around with the PR35 through an A-Designs MP-2. I can now say, unequivocally, that the PR35 and the MP2 are in love. They asked for a room together. The MP2 did its tube magic of warming and rounding the high end crispy on my voice. Tube pre lovers, this might be a nice alternative to the sm7b.

Any more opinions on these two highly praised mics? I don't have a great pre...just the vtb-1. Someone recently posted the comment that the PR-30 is a bright mic. The spoken word clip I heard on the podsquad seemed to be a little on the bright side...certainly brighter than the kel hm-1 which was also featured. Not sure that bright is what I'm looking for in a vocal mic. Maybe I'll just get the CAD m179 which is supposed to be very neutral and is pretty highly regarded too.

http://www.myspace.com/lejaz

[shortyprs]

This weekend I had a chance to use the PR35 live and in the studio. For my voice, the low cut was helpful and I could hear myself a little better in the mix. No one else in the band noticed anything different enough to comment. Still, between the low cut and the slight added cut in the mix, this will be my new gigging mic. (My old favorite was an m88)

In the studio, I tried the PR35 on a distorted amp and it was just the ticket. The low end has some balls while the top cuts nicely. It worked real well with a BAE312 pre.

So far, I haven't experienced any issues with sibilance, other then that it didn't play well with the top on the Pacifica. Surprisingly, it worked well with the more forward presence of the BAE with a bright, distorted amp.

Last thing, the PR35 is supposed to be less prone to feedback. In our sound check, it didn't show any less tendency to feed back. Then again, it was an outdoor gig. I was driving the monitors really damned hot just to make something feed back. Not a fair test.

[bilco]

Originally Posted by shortyprs

Results of taking it to band practice:

1. No one noticed that I had a new mic.
2. I noticed that I could hear myself better in the mix. My buddy's sound system is usually a wall of mud covered in reverb. I usually can't hear my voice well at all. This time, I could hear myself better across the spectrum, but I wasn't turned up in the mix.
3. This thing has great rear and side rejection.

I can see why folks love this mic for live work.

I got the PR35/PR22 package on a 30 day trial basis directly from Heil. I have had them about 2 weeks now. Here is what I have found so far.


First of all, for all applications, the mic works better for me using the middle bass rolloff position. It takes care of the plosives and still leaves plenty of bottom end detail for my voice.



Using as a live vocal mic at gigs:

I have used an SM58 for about 15 years.



1. Unlike shortyprs, EVERYONE noticed I had a new mic. I usually just sing harmony, but after singing the lead on one of the few songs I sing, the drummer turned to me and said, “Don’t even think about buying another mic. That is your mic forever!”
2. Like shortyprs, I can hear everything I sing much better in the mix, even if the volume is lower than it used to be set on my SM58. I can hear my falsetto harmonies and I can hear myself so well in the low range I am going for harmonies beneath the melody, something I am usually tentative about trying out at a gig.
3. Excellent off axis rejection, no feedback at all at my regular Friday night gig where the speakers are shooting over our heads at a 90 degree angle to the band.
4. Smoooooothhh!

I loved that tired old SM58. It has rolled off of bass cabinets more times than I can count and still works great. I have learned to use its proximity effect to the advantage of my voice by singing point blank into it. It is warm and a good match for my voice in a wooly, low fi kind of way. But there have always been certain frequencies that just haven’t cut through and I found myself kind of guessing whether my pitch was correct. I don’t have to do that at all with the PR35. It cuts through in a dense mix of keyboard and 3 part harmonies in a way that I can hear every night I sing in detail. It is also very flattering to my voice.

The only negative experience I had with it so far was a solo acoustic singer/songwriter set I did this week. In that context it seemed a little bright and it was constantly on the verge of feedback, but I had no control over the PA from where I was and for some reason the club had the cabinet with a 15” and a horn behind the stage and overhead, pointed down directly at the back of my head and at the mic, so it the feedback issue was really not the fault of the mic. I have 3 other gigs under my belt with the mic, one of them in a duo acoustic guitar and bass/ 2 singer setting and it worked great on those gigs.

The PR35 is definitely my live vocal mic from now on. It is well worth the money. The SM58 will stay in my gig bag as a spare tire in case I am at a gig where we are a mic short, but I doubt I will ever use it again.

The PR22 was not flattering to my voice. I plugged it in for about 15 seconds and it went right back in the case. To my ear it sounds overly bright, not good on a nasal voice. Not so sure I am keeping that one……..

Using as a vocal mic for recording:

I am downsizing my studio to just an Mbox and a couple of good mics. I am a songwriter/bass player, not an audio engineer. I am too old and tired to really apply myself to learning the finer points of engineering and it just is not my passion anyway. If I want to record a CD, I'll tranfer my PT LE tracks to a real studio to use as guide tracks if they are not good enough to keep. So, I sold my RNP and I am looking for a couple of mics that play well with the Mbox.

The SM7b is a smooth, but kind of dull sounding mic on my voice. It sounds pretty good through the Mbox 1 preamp, but the gain has to be opened really wide and it doesn’t have the clarity that it did through the RNP or through a Portico that I rented for a weekend.

The PR 35 is smoother, not at all dull, definitely brighter, definitely more detail on the low end too. It takes less gain to get a healthy signal and it is much more detailed in general than the SM7b. It has the detail of many LDCs I have rented without picking up the sound of the AC, dogs barking, trucks going by. I need to do a shootout on acoustic guitar with the PR35 against my SM81. If the PR35 holds up in that shootout, I may become the proud of owner of just one mic.

The PR22 did not make the cut here either. Too bright and thin for my voice. I am going to have to try it on snare, acoustic guitar and guitar cab. If I can’t find something that it is outstanding on, I am not keeping it.

bilco

[lancebug]

Had a chance to shoot out the PR-20, PR-30 Beyer M99 and RE-20 on vocals recently. I thought the 20 wasn't really in the same class as the others, more of an sm57/audix I5 sort of tool. More room noise and less full overall. Between the remaining three, the 30 won the challenge, being a bit more detailed in the high end and well balanced across the rest of the spectrum (which is what was wanted for the application they were being auditioned for, which was female vox). I thought the M99 and RE-20 sounded closest to each other of the group. They were all good choices though, with the possible exception of the PR-20, which seems like more of a live/instrument mic than a studio vocal mic.

[Wayne]

Thread resurrection alert...
I have the PR35, and was wondering how close they are to the 30'. Their graphs would suggest maybe quite different..?
The 30 gets lots of thumbs up but the few times I tried the 35 on guitar cab I didn't care for it.

[tINY]

They definately sound different. The PR30 seems to work better at a distance for vocals, where the PR35 id definately at home almost touching the lips. (I'm gonna guess there is some extra screening or something in the PR35).

I've never tried a PR35 on anything but live voice, so I can't really make an evaluation of it on a guitar cabinet. The PR30, however, is my favorite on most guitar cabinets.



-tINY

[cdog]

Definitely both awesome mics, buy both, ldo.

[bogeyeater]

i have PR40 -> joemeek vc1 (old one) -> metric halo uln2 (w/softsat and haloverb)

very lovely rich master Q sound - need all the help i can get lol ;o)

[Caramel]

bought a PR35 a while ago used cause it was really cheap. Didn`t really think i was gonna use it much. Did a few tests on female singer ,male rapper and my internet radio show. It always just works.

So now, I actually grab it first for many things because I have less ambient noise and the usual condenser considerations to deal with etc. It has made me rethink future mic purchases. Not sure if expensive condensers would give me what I need. The PR35 thru the Great River MP2-NV is quite exceptional. I find myself having to carve out the sound of large condensers to get to the ballpark of the PR35 anyway.

Also, the impedance settings on the Great River and ISA preamps gives the PR35 quite a variable sonic palette.