Digital / analog front-end for recording

[dizziness]

My recording rig has been hodge podged together over many years. I'm looking to patch together a better and more convenient system. Priorities are:
-Simpler and quicker to setup
-Smaller and lightweight
-More mic channels and A/D
-Better sounding
-Automation

Currently I am running:
-Soundcraft analog console (for mic pre's and PA when required. Useful also for cue mixes on multitrack projects.)
-Echo Layla24 24/96 (really? ha!) 8 in/8 out interface
-Behringer ADA8000 for 8 additional channels of A/D via lightpipe. Also used for mic pre's on smaller projects when console not needed. I don't particualry care for them though.
-Mackie HUI for automation
-Dell mini-ATX case that I rackmounted and 15 LCD I throw in padded duffel bag

Best I have figured I should look at the Yamaha 02r, O1V, DM1000 or a Tascam DM24. I am partial to anything but Yamaha which has always sounded a bit sterile to my ears. The Tascam is getting long in the tooth though. The newer Yamaha rigs will interface well with Nuendo using HUI emulation. The Tascam is bit a pain and doesn't give all the editing controls I am used to.

Apart from this, I thought of purchasing a couple 4 or 8 ch mic pres, some good converters, and buying a cheap mixer for cue and PA gigs. In any case I'll probably ditch the ATX case for a laptop and transition to Emagic Logic 7.

Are there other digital consoles or multi component rigs around $2000 I should be considering? Used is fine (I've been perusing eBay to further confuse myself.)

New products since AES that have me curious are the RME Fireface, Tascam 1804, Presonus Firepod, MOTU 896HD. Do any of these have mic preamps good enough for classical 2-4 ch recording?

Another idea was a Tascam FW-1884 but I'm sick of not having scribble scrips. Hence my looking at the Yamaha digital mixers. With the tascam's, they ahve the software strip down which is helpful, I suppose.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[manning1]

this is the low cost native pc solution i'm going towards over the next year. i'm already an amd user.
a bunch of standalone mic pre's (of my own diy design) going into an rme sound solution interfacing with a amd 64 pc .
running powertracks 48 track multitrack digital recording software.
but this might not suit your way of working. the max i will record at once is 6 tracks. i dont use a control surface etc.

[Albert]

"Better" is I suppose a relative term, depending on your needs. However, when you say "convenient" and "simpler" I don't think digital mixers. If anything, they are more complicated and less convenient.

I went to an all digital mixing setup a couple years ago and am now migrating back to analog. Actually, a combination of analog and digital mixing. The only thing I miss with analog is automation, but most of that can be handled in the DAW anyway.

Another presumption I will debate is whether digital sounds better. While my digital mixers are so clean it's wonderful, I can't say that the mixes done on them are "better" than when I was using Mackie analog mixers. In fact, when I listen back to older projects, they sound subjectively more alive and in fact better with the analog mixer.

Yes, it's nice to have all those extra AD/DA converters, but in reality in any budget digital mixer you are going to find for around $2,000 those converters aren't really going to be the greatest.

If you are recording classical you might want to give further consideration to going high end with the preamps and converters, and then mix in the box. Or mix to an analog summing mixer using some nice DA converters. With classical, I think the front end is absolutely crucial.

[dizziness]

Originally posted by Albert
"Better" is I suppose a relative term, depending on your needs. However, when you say "convenient" and "simpler" I don't think digital mixers. If anything, they are more complicated and less convenient.
Yes, it's nice to have all those extra AD/DA converters, but in reality in any budget digital mixer you are going to find for around $2,000 those converters aren't really going to be the greatest.
If you are recording classical you might want to give further consideration to going high end with the preamps and converters, and then mix in the box. Or mix to an analog summing mixer using some nice DA converters. With classical, I think the front end is absolutely crucial.

I had a feeling this would be said. I have considered waiting for the Onyx 800R but have a bad taste in my mouth from the sound of the older consoles. I also have considered picking up some FMR RNP or Broadhurst gardens #1 preamps. This I could locate close to the mics as well for lower noise. Both have stepped controls, making this pretty easy.

Of course, then I would be using the A/D of the Layla (or the Behringer) which proabbly aren't up to the task. Hence just scrapping everything and starting over.

I'm sick of hauling the console around. Maybe move it out of the SKB Mini Gig Rig and get a simple anvil-style case for it?

Chris

[DrDeltaM]

What about a Powerbook with a Metric Halo 2882+DSP? http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/products/mio/2882/

The 2882+DSP has good convertors and 8 usable mic pre-amps build in. You can add 2 'money'-channels later.
It has an onboard zero latency mixer with plugins (the non DSP version has the mixer as well, but without the option of running plugins).

Oh, and it's smaller then a full 19" rack (tho can be racked with rackears): it's the format of a 15" Powerbook.

[dizziness]

Only problem being the MH 2882 doesn't have PC support so I'd have to spring for the Powerbook a year earlier than planned.

It's beginning to look like just buying some easier to manage cases.

Chris

[Jeroleen]

I've been curious about this item for some time. It seems to offer much of what you might want and, your could rack this up and it would be like having eight nice preamps plus other functions etc. Anyway, I am sure you will get the point. Whether it fits the bill or has the qualifications you are looking for, well, that is always the questions, isn't it?

Tl Audio T3 Tracker

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaudio/docs/products/m3.shtml

[Jeroleen]

Oops! Thats the M-3 Tracker. My bad

[dizziness]

Originally posted by Jeroleen
I've been curious about this item for some time. It seems to offer much of what you might want and, your could rack this up and it would be like having eight nice preamps plus other functions etc. Anyway, I am sure you will get the point. Whether it fits the bill or has the qualifications you are looking for, well, that is always the questions, isn't it?

Tl Audio T3 Tracker

Not quite what I'm looking for but still an interesting product.

Chris

[Albert]

Since you already have the Dell to record to, you could do something which would be a pretty quick and easy upgrade. Maybe think about something along these lines:

-Keep the Soundcraft for your PA gigs, but don't necessarily use it for the more demanding classical recording projects.

-Buy a small mixer for monitoring/cue mix purposes. Since you wouldn't be running signal through it other than for monitoring, this could be a real cheapy as long as it had the right features. I'm talking a Mackie 1202, Yamaha MG, maybe even one of the smaller Behringers. Like a $100-200 monitor mixer.

-Divide the rest of your budget between 4-8 channels of the best preamps you can afford and upgrading your converters. Or perhaps divide it between the preamps and an Apogee Big Ben, which would almost certainly improve the sound of the converters you currently use.

You don't mention what mics you use, but that's obviously important in your choice of preamps.

Basically, you'd go to your recording gigs with your Dell, mics, compact monitor mixer, and a small rack with the preamps and possibly master clock and/or better converters.

Part of your plan should be to buy gear that you won't have to upgrade or grow out of a year from now. You'll also probably have more cash to spend at various times in the future as well. So do the upgrade component by component, one area at a time. In a year or two you'll have a killer setup as opposed to more half-baked preamps and semi-good converters that need replacing *again*.

$2,000 is awfully tight for upgrading 4-8 preamps *and* converters for them. Maybe think about one or the other now and one or the other later.

Just some thoughts.

[dizziness]

Originally posted by Albert
Since you already have the Dell to record to, you could do something which would be a pretty quick and easy upgrade. Maybe think about something along these lines:

-Keep the Soundcraft for your PA gigs, but don't necessarily use it for the more demanding classical recording projects.

-Buy a small mixer for monitoring/cue mix purposes. Since you wouldn't be running signal through it other than for monitoring, this could be a real cheapy as long as it had the right features. I'm talking a Mackie 1202, Yamaha MG, maybe even one of the smaller Behringers. Like a $100-200 monitor mixer.

Done! I was one step ahead. I picked up a Behringer 12 channel thingy for $80. Works like a charm.

-Divide the rest of your budget between 4-8 channels of the best preamps you can afford and upgrading your converters. Or perhaps divide it between the preamps and an Apogee Big Ben, which would almost certainly improve the sound of the converters you currently use.

You don't mention what mics you use, but that's obviously important in your choice of preamps.

Yes, this was my thought as well. I have changed philosophies a bit. Last evening I tried putting the mic preamp by the mics (Shure KSM44) and then drove the output down the snake. This made a huge difference. I've seen the classical and scoring guys putting their pre's by the stands. So a few two channels pre's or a remote controlled 8-channel seems to be the ticket.

Other mics are DPA 4011, Shure KSM27, 57's, 58's, Studio projects B-1.

Basically, you'd go to your recording gigs with your Dell, mics, compact monitor mixer, and a small rack with the preamps and possibly master clock and/or better converters.

Part of your plan should be to buy gear that you won't have to upgrade or grow out of a year from now. You'll also probably have more cash to spend at various times in the future as well. So do the upgrade component by component, one area at a time. In a year or two you'll have a killer setup as opposed to more half-baked preamps and semi-good converters that need replacing *again*.

Tell me about it. I've been down that road many times and was looking for an end all without spending the cash. In the end I've realized that I should just piece meal the system together, getting the good stuff from the beginning.

$2,000 is awfully tight for upgrading 4-8 preamps *and* converters for them. Maybe think about one or the other now and one or the other later.

Yeah, this budget is completely unrealistic. I recognize this now and will just start picking up some pre-amps, followed by better converters.

Thanks!

Chris

[Albert]

Sounds like you are on the right path. The trick is not to think of it as piecemeal though, but as one unified system. When putting together a system out of disparate elements, and over a period of time, it is easy to get side-tracked.

What I do is have a master plan written down on paper. The idea being to keep the big picture in mind, and to have a fully designed setup as the final well-thought-out goal. While I certainly feel free to change the plan whenever I wish, it's mere existence is a huge help, and forces me to formulate my design plans more clearly.

I also then make the purchasing order part of the plan. For me, seeing it on paper really helps me sort out all the issues and prioritize better.