Recording drums "straight" HELP

[Shadowdog]

Ok, I am getting ready to record my band. Had them over tonight to look at my equipment and assess the situation and conivince them I can do it. I am using Cubase 4 with a Presonus Digimax and a RME Multiface. I currently am connecting my Presonus through lightpipe into the RME.

SO, my singer is saying we don't need to use the mic pre to record drum tracks and can plug mics directly into the RME's 1/4 inputs. We where counting what we want to mic and have 13-14 peices/overheads we want to mic. I only have 8 mic pres on the RME. We also want to mix in 2-3 triggers for snare/bass etc. Anyway, I am wonder, is he correct that for drum mics, we don't need to use a mic pre. I guess it doesn't seem right to me, but I am a rookie. Anyway, if someone could clarify this logic and how ideally, with what I have, it should be done. I told him I was planning on picking up another mic pre to add to the system to get another 8 inputs for the drums and he said we can plug right in through the RME.

[rossi]

Shadowdog

I dont mean to be rude but if I understood right you want record 13-14 tracks of drums ? thats a very big job for someone with limited expirience ,why not start with just 2overheads .snare and kick phase problems will easier to deal with and you will be suprised how good the kit can sound with just 4 mics

Regards

Ross

[yesac81]

ahhh singers...

you need a mic-pre for mics. end of story.

think of it like this: broadly speaking there are three main voltage ranges in audio (in order of low to high): mic, line, and speaker.

mic's put out a REALLY small signal compared to what a line input would be expecting so if you plug a mic straight into a line input it will hardly register. the other thing is that line inputs don't have the ability to provide phantom power, if you are using condenser mics (that require phantom power).

don't worry about being a rookie, you've gotta jump in somewhere and recording your own band is often the best and least pressured way to learn.

if you need extra pre's there are a few options...
1. beg/borrow/steal/buy an 8 channel pre like a sytek
2. beg/borrow/steal/buy a little mixing desk (think mackie or behringer) and use the preamps on that. a little trick with using the pre's on mixing boards that don't have line outs for each channel... plug a cable into the insert point for the channel, but only put it in to the first click (it will look like it's half hanging out, this is what you want). instant line out.

go well! remember to have fun and don't let them give you any grief if things go a little wonky at certain points (which they probably will, it's all part of the learning process)

ps... if you are tracking trigger's as well and have a drum brain or something similar, run the trigger's into the drum brain, connect the midi of the drum brain to your interface, and record the midi instead... it'll save you some tracks.

[Shadowdog]

Thanks yesac81, you confirmed my thoughts (that I had without the technical background.) The other guitarist in our band has a portable recording and I will check what it has for mic pres/outs on that. I have been shopping ofr another 8 mic pre for recording to go right into my RME's analog inputs since my Digimax is going into the lightpipe. Then I will have 16 and should be good for now.

[StaticStudios]

I second that small mic set up. Do like the "recorder man" set up with a Kick and snare mic added. Or just the kick mic added.. so 3 mics on the kit.. Have your drummer actually make a real serious effort at making his kit sound good and you will be surprised at how good the kit can record.

I would do that for everything... simple setups.

Borrowing or buy a good mic pre is a good idea too... just 4 ch of something good will go a long way.

[Shadowdog]

This is the recording that my current drummer and singer did in their previous band. I beleive they said the did a mix of the acoustic drum sound recordings and triggers.

MySpace.com - Back To Ruin - BILLINGS, Montana - Metal / Rock / Black Metal - www.myspace.com/backtoruin

[rackdude]

Originally Posted by yesac81

1. beg/borrow/steal/buy an 8 channel pre like a sytek

The sytek is a 4 channel. For the same price you can get the sp 828 though which is 8 channels.

[Shadowdog]

So was looking at the SP828. In the features section it says that up to 4 of these units can be hooked together for 32 total inputs. I am not understanding what the benefit is of hooking these units together. What is the difference if I use my Presonus for 8 mic inputs, connect to my RME though light pipe AND use this for 8 mic inputs connected to the 8 analog inputs on the RME.

Doesn't each input on the mic pre have to go out "it's own" output to the interface?? So I am not understanding what connecting similar units together accomplishes.

[Enzo Polotso]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

So was looking at the SP828. In the features section it says that up to 4 of these units can be hooked together for 32 total inputs. I am not understanding what the benefit is of hooking these units together. What is the difference if I use my Presonus for 8 mic inputs, connect to my RME though light pipe AND use this for 8 mic inputs connected to the 8 analog inputs on the RME.

Doesn't each input on the mic pre have to go out "it's own" output to the interface?? So I am not understanding what connecting similar units together accomplishes.

I believe the 828 can also do summing into 2 outputs, so if you want more inputs for that, you'd hook them together.

[Shadowdog]

ahh, that makes more sense, combine more of these to mix before the system.

[bgrotto]

I don't wanna be the stick-in-the-mud, but it sounds like your best bet would be to spend some dough on a day at a real studio, and cut all your drum tracks (all 13-14 of em, if that's how you want it done). Then try to do the rest at home.

With all due respect (I REALLY don't wanna come off as a dick, seriously), it's clear neither you nor anyone in your band have any practical recording knowledge; you're pretty much doomed to make a bad recording.

From what I gather (I could be wrong), you play in a metal band. Metal is really, REALLY hard to record, especially the drums. Getting into a studio will save you a brutal headache. And it'll end up costing you guys like $100 a person. I do a LOT of metal recording, and this is advice I give people regularly. I've yet to hear an amateur home recording of a metal band that didn't completely and utterly suck.

Maybe even consider hiring an engineer to help you record tracks at home. Let him worry about whether mics needs pre amps; you guys should be concerning yourselves with MUSIC, not technology.

Either way, good luck!

[Shadowdog]

bgrotto, you are not coming off bad to me I understand your points. But, at the expense of my band, I am willing to take the risk of ending up with a shatty recording to get the experience. I agree with you on the time consuming process of learning all this stuff and not spending the bulk of my time on worrying gear and how to use half this stuff, rather than actually playing my guitar. This is something I really want to get into, and baby stepping though the process is fine with me. I think the band is pateint enough too and realize this, so hopefully it will go good.

Plus our drummer has actually had a few albums recorded while in a band called Onward that were semi-big deals (for us anyway.) So as far as direction on drum recording techniques, i hope he can give some guidance on what they did for those project (even though he was on the palying end.)

So either way I appreciate your advice and honesty. We may end up spending a bunch of time on a turd, but I (and hoepfully the others) are willing to take that chance for me.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

bgrotto, you are not coming off bad to me I understand your points. But, at the expense of my band, I am willing to take the risk of ending up with a shatty recording to get the experience. I agree with you on the time consuming process of learning all this stuff and not spending the bulk of my time on worrying gear and how to use half this stuff, rather than actually playing my guitar. This is something I really want to get into, and baby stepping though the process is fine with me. I think the band is pateint enough too and realize this, so hopefully it will go good.

Plus our drummer has actually had a few albums recorded while in a band called Onward that were semi-big deals (for us anyway.) So as far as direction on drum recording techniques, i hope he can give some guidance on what they did for those project (even though he was on the palying end.)

So either way I appreciate your advice and honesty. We may end up spending a bunch of time on a turd, but I (and hoepfully the others) are willing to take that chance for me.

Gotchya. I didn't realize you were looking to learn the process.

Now, just to play devil's advocate (and maintain my professional credibility as such), consider this:

Book the studio. Record the drums. Pay REALLY close attention to what the engineer did, and then try recording the drums at home. Watching a professional do it can be a lot more rewarding and informative than try it yourself for the first time in a vacuum. Plus, you'll be left with two kick-ass scenarios:
1. Your tracks suck compared to the pro's, and so you continue using the pro drum tracks. You get the very cool opportunity to overdub on and (more fun stil) to mix a good recording. Your name appears on said recording as producer, mixer, and engineer. You look good. People hire you, and you can repeat the formula of tracking drums in a studio with a pro and doing overdubs at home until you're confident you can get good drum sounds on your own. Many women beg you to make love to them.
2. Your tracks kick ass all over "Joe Pro" and you now have bragging rights, plus the start of a formula to craft a kick ass, brutal metal record. Your name appears as producer, mixer, and engineer, and people hire you to work your increasingly more-expensive home-studio magic. Many women beg you to make love to them.

OK. I may have exaggerated a couple points, but you catch my drift, no?

Again, either way, good luck. Don't forget to post something here on GS! For example...my personal favorite thread:

Audio Clips of Rough Mixes from Basics Sessions!!!

Sweet!

[bgrotto]

Oops, I forgot to ask:

What are your mixing plans?

(hee hee...on second though, you don't even wanna get me started...)

[Blue Bear Sound]

This article detailing a remote drum session I did years ago may also give you some tips --> 9 Tracks In 2 Days

[Shadowdog]

One thing I forgot to mention too. I am located in Billings, MT and "pros" are scarce. Most studios are jokers like me, but maybe with a few more garage and worship bands under their belt. Actually some of the stuff i did on my 4 track from 15 years ago, sound better than what I have heard here. I may be able to look around a bit and find something else in the state, maybe Bozeman or Missoula. I like the idea of stealing knowledge, hell i learned how to play guitar by watching my idols and trying to do it like they did, why not for recording too. It would be great if I could find an experience person to work on my system (or something similar) to see how they would do it vs watching someone use gear/interface etc i would never have.

Thanks for the help and there will definately be something out here for your to hear.

[Shadowdog]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Oops, I forgot to ask:

What are your mixing plans?

(hee hee...on second though, you don't even wanna get me started...)

What do you mean by mixing plans? Actually...what do you mean "plans." :)

No actually what do you mean/

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

What do you mean by mixing plans? Actually...what do you mean "plans." :)

No actually what do you mean/

I mean, you'll be mixing it yourself?

[Shadowdog]

Oh, yes I do plan on that as well. I would like to touch all parts of the process I can. If I feel we have got something worth a darn, maybe look into someone else doing the mastering, but for demos to sell a shows, might not need to go that route.

[yesac81]

Originally Posted by rackdude

The sytek is a 4 channel. For the same price you can get the sp 828 though which is 8 channels.

oops... i originally wrote "4 channel" but changed it to 8 channel when i re-read the original post

[Shadowdog]

Blue Bear,

In your journal you say;
The channel breakdown was -
- Channel 1 - kick (direct out to tape)
- Channel 2 - snare (direct out to tape)
- Channel 3 - hi-hat (direct out to tape)
- Channel 4 - hi-tom (submixed to stereo pair)
- Channel 5 - mid-tom (submixed to stereo pair)
- Channel 6 - flr tom (submixed to stereo pair)
- Channel 7 - overhead (left) (direct out to tape)
- Channel 8 - overhead (right) (direct out to tape)


This is probably the same set up I will have channel wise. But what do you mean by submixed to stereo pair? How is that different than panning the tracks to create the stereo affect for the toms?

Also, for the over heads, do you full pan them left/right in the mix after they are recorded?

[orbit]

im fairly green as well

however i think what he meant by submixed to stereo pair is that hes talkin 3 toms with only 2 outs...alot of boards have like 4 submix channels, or 2 stereo pairs of submix chans...so i think hes talking about sending the 3 toms to the submix and yes you'll do all the panning there and stuff too but instead of 3 line outs you're only using 2...

i could very well be wrong e

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

...Also, for the over heads, do you full pan them left/right in the mix after they are recorded?

Some people pan them more like 3 o'clock-9 o'clock. If you pan them all the way out, you're putting the whole band inside the drum kit. However, this is fairly common. If you have guitars panned wide, panning the drums not quite so wide leaves more room for the guitars.

[Tomer1]

Thats alot of mics,
More is not always better.

[Shadowdog]

What would be a smaller mic set up? I would be curious to record one song with a simple set up and compare the quality/ease of working with a small vs larger setup. On my four track, I once recorded with the bass miced, a mic "shooting though" past the hi-hat to the snare and 2 over heads and it sounded alright. I guess I would assume having each miced would allow more control in mixing.

[soundsundergroun]

Originally Posted by yesac81

ahhh singers...

you need a mic-pre for mics. end of story.

think of it like this: broadly speaking there are three main voltage ranges in audio (in order of low to high): mic, line, and speaker.

mic's put out a REALLY small signal compared to what a line input would be expecting so if you plug a mic straight into a line input it will hardly register. the other thing is that line inputs don't have the ability to provide phantom power, if you are using condenser mics (that require phantom power).

don't worry about being a rookie, you've gotta jump in somewhere and recording your own band is often the best and least pressured way to learn.

if you need extra pre's there are a few options...
1. beg/borrow/steal/buy an 8 channel pre like a sytek
2. beg/borrow/steal/buy a little mixing desk (think mackie or behringer) and use the preamps on that. a little trick with using the pre's on mixing boards that don't have line outs for each channel... plug a cable into the insert point for the channel, but only put it in to the first click (it will look like it's half hanging out, this is what you want). instant line out.

go well! remember to have fun and don't let them give you any grief if things go a little wonky at certain points (which they probably will, it's all part of the learning process)

ps... if you are tracking trigger's as well and have a drum brain or something similar, run the trigger's into the drum brain, connect the midi of the drum brain to your interface, and record the midi instead... it'll save you some tracks.

where can you get an 8 channel sytek?

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by rossi

Shadowdog

I dont mean to be rude but if I understood right you want record 13-14 tracks of drums ? thats a very big job for someone with limited expirience ,why not start with just 2overheads .snare and kick phase problems will easier to deal with and you will be suprised how good the kit can sound with just 4 mics

Regards

Ross

I respectfully disagree. I think more the better when starting out. It's near impossible to get a great or even good drum sound with just 4 mics
without having a serious kicka$$ room and great mics/pres. Atleast if you mic everything you can have more control. You can gate/comp the shit out of everything add some limiting and verb or even sample if you have to. I assume you have just a makeshift drumroom? If so, unless you want cardboard/trash can drums I would go for the gusto with 8+mics. 4 mics will only yield cardboard without a pro drum room.