Recording drums "straight" HELP

[Shadowdog]

If ya need, got a few shots of the kit we will be miking on my myspace (will need to scroll down a bit on page.)

MySpace.com - Kenn - 33 - Male - BILLINGS, MONTANA - www.myspace.com/kennep

[jeremynothman]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

OK, maybe this will help some suggestions. I pooled all of the mics our band has:

Equation Alpha (Alpha Series MicTools For Drummers EQUATION AUDIO :: Beyond Equal)
2 - DMI 104 SLF (Super Cardiod Kick mic)
4 - DMI 101 (Toms/Snare Cardiod Mic)
3 - DMI 102S (Toms/Snare Cardiod Mic)
2 - CMI 103 (Condenser cymbal/overhead)

10 - SM57
7 - SM58
2 - SM86
1 - EV PL5
1 - Peavy PVM22
1 - BeyerDynamic m422
1 - BeyerDynamic TGX50
1 - Sennheiser E906
1 - Sennheiser E609
1 - MXL V63M
1 - MXL 990
2 - Realistic Back Electret Cardiod Condenser (33-1080)

We are miking a Gretsch kit, Snare, Kick, 4 toms (2 floor) and 12 different cymbals and 2 hi-hats. I would be interested in hearing your suggestions for mic set up with this kit. Which mic for which drums?? I will try to upload a picture of the kit tomorrow, having trouble with my phone connectin right now.

I just have to say that i think you're nuts :D
First couple of drum recordings i did were recorderman style (Kick and two side of kit mics), then i tried a multi mic thing (kick, snare, toms, OHs), and forgot some of the basics that paid alot of attention to when doing it with a smaller setup (ie. phase - it will make or break your drum recording, before you even get to what mics are suitable for the job.

I don't know those Equation mics, but most of the rest are reasonably familiar.

You have a bunch of pretty good mics there (partiuclarly those beyers!), but selection of a mic is reliant on the source. If the source sounds 'dark' you want to match it with a 'bright' mic. If you know the character of the mics, you can match them to the source well.

I'd say try different stuff, but a guide would be either the DMI 104 or TGX50 on kick, beyer m422 on snare top, ev pl5 (great for this one!) or sm57 on snare bottom, hats are tricky with this mic selection... i'm usually an SDC kinda guy, which you don't have enough of to spare - so try a dynamic, or the beyer 422 should work (or maybe the mxl990?).
OHs would probably be the CMI 103s in AB configuration, maybe with the MXL990 in the center, as i imagine this kit is pretty wide.
57s on rack toms, or maybe the 101 or 102s. floor toms would be DMI 104 SLF, or the TGX-50, or 57s will suffice again.
I'd say probably the Realistics as room mics, or maybe the V63M for mono room.
If you want some extra colour, a mic pointing at the drummer's crotch, between the snare and kick is pretty good - i've mostly used an MD441, but maybe try one of the senns or something? - preferably something with an extended top end. also a second kick mic could be an option.

All in all, i wouldn't really do this for my first drum recording though - i wouldn't have had a clue of what to do with all these mics, or what i'd want to hear from each one, to know if it was set up correctly

Good luck!

PS. Dumb question... why do you have so much gear already if you haven't really done any recording?

[James Meeker]

Just to be the voice of reason here:

Don't expect very good results. This is your first time and you are obviously very inexperienced. Just keep at it--you may have to record things a few times, improving a little bit each time, until you get something right.

Don't get discouraged if it is terrible. ALL of us started there. The only difference is that was 20 years ago and we learned a thing or two along the way.

Good luck though, hang in there. Trying to get a good drum sound has been known to induce panic attacks in young engineers.

[Shadowdog]

Originally Posted by jeremynothman

PS. Dumb question... why do you have so much gear already if you haven't really done any recording?

These are not all my mics, it is combo from all of us in the band. Mostly the drummer's and singer's that they have gathered over the years for live performance with PA system/etc.

[yesac81]

Originally Posted by soundsundergroun

where can you get an 8 channel sytek?

you can't... i clarified in an above post.

well... you could get two...

[jeremynothman]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Don't get discouraged if it is terrible. ALL of us started there. The only difference is that was 20 years ago and we learned a thing or two along the way

Yep - while i wouldn't start this big (because it's more likely to sound bad with more mics on the kit), you've gotta jump in some time.

I've only been learning for about 5 years, but still... same shit

If i didn't say before, people refer to the TGX-50 as 'the poor man's MD421'.. i wish i knew when i let one go on ebay for $30

[Shadowdog]

OK, back to my singer and his info...he has ddrum triggers and 2 drum brains; Alesis DM5 and D4 (each with sounds we may possibly use to mix with miked drums sound.)

Anyway, he is making it sound as though we have to go from the trigger, to the brain, get the sound and record and audio track. I am a midi virgin, along with the rest of the stuff I haven't done, so may not know what I am talking about, but...if I understand how MIDI can work I should be able to go from the trigger, to the brain and record an actual MIDI track of just the information and then back to the brain to get the sample?? Then if later in the mix I do not like the sampled kick sound I can change or modify it. It wouldn't be until actual mix down that the sampled drum sound is "committed" to tape. Is this right??

Part 2: IF I am right, can someone give me a quickie connection explaination to connect the triggers to these 2 devices, and to get the info to the PC and allow me to then get the sound from the brain.

I am assuming that each trigger can be plugged into one device and I use one of the MIDI connections on the device to go to my MIDI interface (which I have to buy real quick) into my system MIDI back out of system and back into one of the brains and they are somehow bridged together. I just don't get when to use thru vs in/out.

whoever helps me the most I will send a gift card ;)

[Shadowdog]

Oh yeah and I know I am nuts for going so big on this, but...I like to be overwhelmed and exposed to a lot at one, makes everything easier later when doing something smaller.

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

With all due respect (I REALLY don't wanna come off as a dick, seriously), it's clear neither you nor anyone in your band have any practical recording knowledge; you're pretty much doomed to make a bad recording. ... I've yet to hear an amateur home recording of a metal band that didn't completely and utterly suck.

I don't mind coming accross as a dick. I tell people the flat-honest truth, whether or not it's going to bring joy and/or sunshine to their day.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly. And my resoning is pretty simple. Most peple that I know who play metal, and who have been playing out on a consistant basis ... just no longer have the hearing necessary to make any sort of critical tracking or mixing decisions.

If you were to test the hearing of all of the metal drummers I know, I would be shocked if less than 100% weren't suffering from at least some form of hearing loss. And I would be equally shocked if at least 75% of the rest of the guys weren't as well -- at least in varying degrees. That's not to say that they don't have perfectly functional hearing for every day stuff like communicating with others and appreciating music or everyday dialog.

But to be blunt, most of them are just freakin' treble deaf, and I wouldn't trust a single one of them anywhere near a microphone, and aural exciters are completely off-limits. I would feel very nervous about the prospect of allowing them to mix an actual record that they were thinking of charging actual money for, because I believe that mixing is something that is best left for those who have close to their full spectrum of hearing intact, or at least in reasonable balance.

But that's just me.

[DontLetMeDrown]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

OK, back to my singer and his info...he has ddrum triggers and 2 drum brains; Alesis DM5 and D4 (each with sounds we may possibly use to mix with miked drums sound.)

Anyway, he is making it sound as though we have to go from the trigger, to the brain, get the sound and record and audio track. I am a midi virgin, along with the rest of the stuff I haven't done, so may not know what I am talking about, but...if I understand how MIDI can work I should be able to go from the trigger, to the brain and record an actual MIDI track of just the information and then back to the brain to get the sample?? Then if later in the mix I do not like the sampled kick sound I can change or modify it. It wouldn't be until actual mix down that the sampled drum sound is "committed" to tape. Is this right??

Part 2: IF I am right, can someone give me a quickie connection explaination to connect the triggers to these 2 devices, and to get the info to the PC and allow me to then get the sound from the brain.

I am assuming that each trigger can be plugged into one device and I use one of the MIDI connections on the device to go to my MIDI interface (which I have to buy real quick) into my system MIDI back out of system and back into one of the brains and they are somehow bridged together. I just don't get when to use thru vs in/out.

whoever helps me the most I will send a gift card ;)

The triggers will connect to the DM5. From there you can record the midi output and the audio output into your interface/DAW. Personally, if you are doing metal, I'd end up manually replacing the recorded audio sample instead of using the trigger info. It always sounds the best to me that way. Even with the best triggers you will occasionally get mis-triggers and flams-- especially on ghost notes.

[jeremynothman]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog

OK, back to my singer and his info...he has ddrum triggers and 2 drum brains; Alesis DM5 and D4 (each with sounds we may possibly use to mix with miked drums sound.)

What about just micing it properly in the first place.
If you're doing the recording yourself, in your own space you have no excuses (time is money etc) to not mic up the kit properly the first time.

If you need different tones (a different snare on a track etc) - rent/borrow that drum. A sample-replaced piece of kit always sounds fake.
I had the misfortune of hearing some slipknot last week.
Wow! Their 'kick drum' (sounded like someone flicking some cling wrap) sounded unnatural, boring and dynamicless.

The DM5 should have a MIDI out - allowing you to record it's data simultaneously with the other drum tracks - this would give you the option of using different samples to those in the DM5 as well, such as BFD, or other samplers (gigastudio, exs24 etc)

Originally Posted by moonunit

I would be shocked if less than 100% weren't suffering from at least some form of hearing loss

I'd be surprised if most AEs weren't suffering some sort of hearing loss. Not to say at all that it is a good thing, but i'm quite sure that i have some hearing loss and for the most part i think that your brain retrains itself (if worked well) to compensate a little for those losses. The hearing won't ever come back, but it shouldn't be a barrier between making a good mix or not.

Letting most people get behind an Aural Exciter is a bad idea

[Shadowdog]

The reason we were going to use the trigger was just to help fill in and get a more consistent kick sound, incase of a lighter attack etc.

But say for example I triggered the kick and the snare. The triggers go into the DM5, then I use the MIDI out to go to my interface. It records the MIDI info. Do I then go back to the DM5 with the interface's out OR the DM4? Just in/out in/out and create a loop? When do you use the thru. This is the connection info I need, I have never done MIDI, so it is foreign to me.

Then say the kick sound is on the DM5 and the D4 has the snare sound. Are both of these trigger's info contained in the one MIDI track in Cubase. I can then just "remap" the sound later to use a different snare, etc?