considering some HS50M - conscerned about bass response

[RobML]

hey guys

i am considering purchasing some HS50M monitors.

they are my first pair of monitors. i have been using a consumer sony system (CMT-RB5) for too long - they sound like crap and require to many trips to the car and other hi-fi units to check my mixes.

for the last 6 months i have also been using a pair of HD 25-1 II's to mix. while i am very happy with them, they are not ideal for mixing becasue they sound great and the mixes dont transfer to anything else very well.

my main goal here is to create mixes that travel well.

my conscern with the HS50M's is the cut off at 55hz. the sony speakers i have have a 40hz cut off and the HD 25-1 II's have a cut off of 16hz. i do love the exaggerated low end on the HD25-1 II's.

i am your average consumer slut that likes to dabble in music gear, not your typical conscerning studio engineer slut ;) but i do like my bottom end. i have read many reviews that say "dont buy them without the sub" where other reviews say "the bass response is great".

in reality is the cutoff at 55hz a real problem or are the people writing the professional reviews being a bit picky?

im mainly buying the new monitors to mix a rock album but going forward i would like to mix bass heavy hip hop also.

there are many reasons i am looking at the HS50M's, but mainly becasue i can get a really good price on them, and becasue people say they are really good for creating mixes that travel well.

thanks for any advice.

cheers
rob

[matucha]

I didn't find the bass to be much of a problem with HS50M. If you place them close to wall and carefully find a place where they sound the most consistent in bass area, you're going to be ok.

As I pointed out many times here on GS. HS50M have strange highs, grainy and with tendency to sound like sand. Not a great thing to perfect your HF textures (ie. mixing snares, hats, shakers, tamburines...).

They have almost exagerated midrange, that's quite unique for a cheap monitors. I quite liked that.

The bottom is strange, it made almost any beat to sound beefy even when it wasn't. That was big .


Dunno, I can't recommend them. Not if they're going to be the only monitors you'll have for a long time. If you want to go cheap, try old red Tannoy Reveals, with a good amp, they were the cheapest system that actually sounded ok to my ears (though with bad amp they can sound like shit too). Then maybe adam A7, but the lowest adams that I've heard were P11A which I liked.

[RobML]

thanks for that reply

according to the following site the bx5a's have a freq response of 56hz-22khz yet everyone says they have really good bass.. im a little confused
M-Audio - Studiophile BX5a - 9900-40785-00 at Prime Directive Music, LLC

i had a look at the freq graph in the yamaha manual and the sharp bass drop off looks like it is going to be a problem for me.. maybe if it was more similar to the hs80m's drop off it would be ok but i dont want speakers that big, yet alone afford..

i just cant seem to find anything in my price range that i like.. and there is no way a can afford those adams you suggested ;)

cheers
rob

[Renegade Prod]

i love my hs50m's

Mainly the mids, makes me work harder in the studio ... pretty wide, i wouldnt consider them as your only monitors though, i reference them with RP8's so i have a much more accurate bottom end.

Once im happy with the mix, i take a track from the hs50's them play it through coloured speakers (car/home system etc) or even through another studios monitors, the mix sounds amazing ... personally love em, but yeah bass can be a problem, especially if you're after accuracy

[SoniA]

I have buy the MSP7 and theay are fantastics: balanced, detailed, accurate and yes, also pleasant.


Sonia

[beingmf]

Indeed, the top end is a little strange - but wasn't it on the NS10, too? To speak from my experience with them (I bought them when they were brand new out): you get used to it relly quick, and the mixes translate extreeeeeemly well. You could consider checking the sub-55-frequencies with the cans, no?
Stay away from the M-Audio's, I've had them for exactly 2 weeks and sold them - muddy an sheer unusable IMHO...

[Terminus Est]

I love my HS-50's but I literally learned to mix on a true pair of NS-10's . . . so all the weird things about the 50's don't bother me one bit (in fact, I'm more comfortable with them than with anything else).

The fact of the matter is this -

No matter what you use eventually you should get used to how it handles frequencies and you should be able to account for the quirks, short-comings and the exaggerations. In my opinion the worst sort of speakers are speakers that exaggerate low-end and high-end, because that's what's going to be the most noticable and extreme with consumers.

What I LOVE about my 50's is that they have a boost in the mid areas and specifically they have a boost in the low-mids and true-mids that causes them to peek out a bit more than usual. For me, those are the hardest frequencies to hear quality separation in when mixing so the boost helps me space things out and pick out the different instruments (which is a huge portion of all recorded music) more accurately.

That said, if you want a real clean "high end" sounding monitor, they are not the monitor for you. . . and there's no reason to NOT get high-end monitors if that's what you'll feel comfortable mixing on. . . Me? I know exactly what my mixes are going to sound like on my 50's except the occasional sub-woofer lows that sneak up on me. . . and those are the easiest freqs for me to deal with.

I do use some (in my opinion) really nice headphones to reference all my mixes, just to make sure (and to check the stereo spread) that I'm not totally F-ing up and, of course, I always drag my mixes around to every stereo in the house and every car I can get in . . . but with my 50's I would feel comfortable if I couldn't do that. With the KRK's I used it was a literal crap-shoot what my mix would end up sounding like - especially if I brought the mix into anything that had a sub.

[atcing]

Someone has compared ADAM A7 vs YAMAHA MSP7 ?



Thanks

[Bren Gun]

Hey Rob,

Check out the TASCAM VL-A5 (or the older VL-X5).

[JPeters86]

I had a set of HS50s once but I missed some bass, bought a HS10 to complement the set. Sold the speakers though, got a set of Dynaudio's. I guess it depends on the type of music you want to mix with it, and placement of course.

[Kadden Heart]

i mix punk, metal, rock,..but i leave by bass and kick to do some serious thumping usually.
i have the 50's

i love them. personally i found i had to set mine up to boost highs, cut mids,.most others find they're better flat.

it's true i think the bass response sucks,...BUT, it's not so bad that you can't VERY EASILY get a good mix going, use your ears,..and if you need that thump in the kick, or boom in the bass just listen real closely to how your EQ'ing affects the bass that you CAN hear, and when you're done mixing,..throw some cans on, and fix the low end,..it's really not so bad your mixes will not translate.

they are super easy to learn, easy to get used to, they don't fatigue me, they are pretty cheap, and beat out a lot of monitors in their price range.

get em,...and save teh for hs10w sub :)

[RobML]

hey guys

thanks to all for the replies. i appreciate it.

i dont have a lot of exposure to sub 50hz frequencys. although my sonys claim to go down to 40hz i dont think they actually do, or alteast not with any level consistency. my main hifi speakers are mission 781's running through a decent denon amp. i just looked at the freq specs for the 781's (58hz- 20khz). so if the yamahas can go as low as these i dont think i will have a problem.

i think i will get the hs50m's and then use the HD 25-1 II's to check the sub 55hz frequencys. i'll mix on them for a while and see how they go, then buy the sub if i like the them or change them for something else if i dont.

does anyone have the hs50m's with the sub? are you happy with the way they work together?

i had a look at the MSP7's. similar bass response but a much flatter response in the mid and high range. unfortunatly i cant afford these. :)

quite a few people have told me to stay away from the m-audio's. originally i was looking at the bx5a's becasue they were within my budget. ive managed to stretch the budget to be able to afford the hs50m's, but it really is stretched as far as it will go so i can't afford the sub to match atm.

a lot of people have said they learn on NS10's and the hs50m's are similar in principle. i would also like to start out along a similar path. the main purpose of this excercise is to create mixes that sound good on other peoples hi-fi systems. there is no way i can afford anything better than the hs50m's atm.

i checked out the TASCAM VL-A5's. they look nice. i couldnt find a freq graph, but they have a response of 38Hz - 23KHz. the VL-A5's are quite a bit bigger that the hs50m's. i think the VL-A5's are too big for my desk. one of the things like about the hs50m's is their smallish size. while it would be nice if the hs50m's went all the way down to 38hz, atm im thinking that if i like the hs50m's and miss the sub freq's then i will just buy the sub later down the track.

JPeters86, did you keep the sub to go with your dynaudios? which dynaudios did you get? the bm5a's have a freq response of 50Hz-21kHz. did you notice much of a bass response difference from hs50m's (55 Hz—20 kHz)? maybe you got the BM6A's? the BMA6's go down to 40hz, did you miss the sub 40hz freqs when you did away with the sub?

thanks again for your replies.

cheers
rob

[peeder]

Originally Posted by RobML

a lot of people have said they learn on NS10's and the hs50m's are similar in principle. i would also like to start out along a similar path. the main purpose of this excercise is to create mixes that sound good on other peoples hi-fi systems.

This common point of view I'd like to declare as obsolete. The way to get mixes sounding good on the enormous range of playback systems out there is to get them sounding as good as possible on the most revealing monitors you can afford.

Each monitor and room provides you a different subset of the mix, a different perspective. Only if you get every detail in the mix as good as you can are all the subsets also going to be good. If you mix through a subset, no matter how "typical" you feel that subset might be, you are going to miss many problems that will be all too apparent to too many of your listeners.

I had a quick listen to Yamaha's HS80M and I was impressed, but it was a terrible combination of not using reference material and not having anything to compare them to. So my opinion of them is worth next to nothing.

I always suggest people invest in a great set of headphones if they can't afford great monitoring, so they can fix things. A headphone that I think sounds pretty damn poor but reveals tons of problems in a mix extremely well is the Ultrasone Proline 750. This is closed back so it can be used for tracking too. You would prefer the sound of the ATH-M50 or Sennheiser HD600 certainly, but I have started turning to the Ultrasones nearly exclusively for checking mixes. Even though I think they sound pretty awful.

[Kadden Heart]

BTW:
like peeder says, cans are a great check for space, clarity, etc..

i have teh sennheiser HD280
they are bass light, but i love my cans, not "super high end" but i can wear them all damn day and just love it

[Terminus Est]

Originally Posted by peeder

This common point of view I'd like to declare as obsolete. The way to get mixes sounding good on the enormous range of playback systems out there is to get them sounding as good as possible on the most revealing monitors you can afford.

I'll just point out that the above statement is just one of the opinions in a debate that is often cantankerous and valid on both sides.

My opinion, as stated before, is that the key is learning to understand how your monitors respond. As long as they aren't wildly inaccurate this is something that should come intuitively and quickly.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

BTW:
like peeder says, cans are a great check for space, clarity, etc..

i have teh sennheiser HD280
they are bass light, but i love my cans, not "super high end" but i can wear them all damn day and just love it

Yes, very clear mid-range, and attenuated bass but don't be tempted to boost the bass or cut the mids if you mix with these exclusively!

[RobML]

hey guys

well i went to my regular local music store (where i always try to buy stuff from to support the local industry) to try out a range of monitors.

they did not have the hs50m's. they had the hs80m's, events, dynaudios, genelecs, yamaha msp7's, fostex's and a whole bunch of others.

they had a pretty cool switching feature so you could quickly switch between the speakers.

i went in there fairly pessemistic regarding all their stock becasue i wanted the 50's. the gelelecs were not plugged into the speaker switcher so i was unable to do a fast comparison with them.

after 30 mins of switching back and forth, it was evident that the hs80ms were a clear winner for flat clean response, which is exactly what i was going for.

i wont do a full writeup, but i was very happy with the 80's over all the others, so i broke the bank and took them home.

when i got them into my studio if was pretty amazing comparing them to the old consumer speakers i was using previously. it was also obvious that the sennheiser HD 25-1 II's colour the sound to some degree.

then i put the kids to bed, the street noise died down, i turned the air conditioner off and then i could hear a hiss coming from the tweaters in the hs80m's. it was more obvious directly in the stereo field. i was sitting about 1.5m from the speakers.

so i googled around and read some reviews that said both the hs50m's and the hs80m's have some hiss. i thought this was strange becasue no one here mentioned hiss.

so i took them back to do an AB with the instore monitors. every monitor, every brand had at least the same ammount of hiss as my hs80m's except the genelecs. the genelecs hiss was about 4 times quieter than the rest of them (8020's) but it was still there if you put your ear up close. the fostexs were the worst, easily doubling the hiss of any other speaker.

the tech guy in store told me that all monitors have some hiss and said that my monitors were not faulty.

i had seen posts online that said the hs80m's "had no hiss" so im wondering if monitors dont like "conversion to australian 240volts" and if the americans and japanese dont get the hiss becasue they run at 110v?

anyway, if they all do it except genelecs, i am happy to put up with it till i can afford genelecs. maybe im being a bit sensitive (excuse the pun). the other salesmen in the store thought i was being pretty anal about the fact that i could hear the hiss. maybe they are used to it? maybe i should get used to it?

in any case, my mixes are sounding a whole lot better. straight from my studio to the car without any back and forth trips. it was like pulling the wool from my ears.

the bass response is good. im glad i got the 80's instead of the 50's. even if i didnt try the 50's, i did an eq test cutting the freq off at 55hz, and i think it is not low enough for me to be satisfied. i figured if i was going to save for the sub i might as well break the bank right now.

overall i am very happy with them and look forward to years of mixing on them.

thanks again to everyone who replied.

cheers
rob

[moracspace]

Originally Posted by peeder

This common point of view I'd like to declare as obsolete. The way to get mixes sounding good on the enormous range of playback systems out there is to get them sounding as good as possible on the most revealing monitors you can afford.

Each monitor and room provides you a different subset of the mix, a different perspective. Only if you get every detail in the mix as good as you can are all the subsets also going to be good. If you mix through a subset, no matter how "typical" you feel that subset might be, you are going to miss many problems that will be all too apparent to too many of your listeners.

I had a quick listen to Yamaha's HS80M and I was impressed, but it was a terrible combination of not using reference material and not having anything to compare them to. So my opinion of them is worth next to nothing.

I always suggest people invest in a great set of headphones if they can't afford great monitoring, so they can fix things. A headphone that I think sounds pretty damn poor but reveals tons of problems in a mix extremely well is the Ultrasone Proline 750. This is closed back so it can be used for tracking too. You would prefer the sound of the ATH-M50 or Sennheiser HD600 certainly, but I have started turning to the Ultrasones nearly exclusively for checking mixes. Even though I think they sound pretty awful.

Yes all very true.I mix on the 50s and love them, they very much translate to the real world.Mixing on completely flat monitors is boring to me.I own p22s to check my mixes,or if the band wants to hear it louder.I run a sub with both monitors no matter what.The P22s have a very nice top/mid and a tight bass responce.I dont mix rock or metal on these just checking for something the Yammies missed.I however mix country,classical,poop(pop),worship and other clean sounding genres on the P22s

[atcing]

I have buy MSP7 and I'm impressed. I prefer msp7 to my previous excellent ADAM A7

[kzkingsley]

i like how the initial question of the thread was about the sub bass frequency response of speakers, and he has yet to get a straight answer!

robml, have you listened to monitors at a store or another studio yet? compared to your every day set of stereo speakers you will probably be surprised at the lack of a low end, but in reality what you're getting is (hopefully) a tight low end without any exaggerated frequencies. if your sonys say they go down to 40hz they're either very large, very optimistic, or they have a big boomy boost in their frequency response that definitely isn't helping your mixes out at all.

[peeder]

I am trying them and I personally think the HS10W sub is an essential accompaniment to the HS50Ms...but I think subs are essential period. (My other sub is a 7060B...)

If you don't feel subs are essential you could probably get away without one on these in a small space.