Blown away by Lanois' control room vocal tracking technique

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Daniel Lanois

We used a Beta 58 not a 57. The feedback to print ratio is relative to the output volume of your singer. A quiet singer then singing to a PA is a bad idea. Bono's a powerhouse singer which automatically reduces the amount of spill and feedback. This technique is good for him because he likes to be juiced up to get that stage feeling. He's a performer, he needs his PA. Regarding feedback try this... lower the volume of your speakers and don't put the vocal in the monitors at all. You won't get feedback and you have the advantage of the singer having better pitch. This is a technique I use all the time.

Did a quick set up at the end of my day. I wanted to try this. Got about ten feet back from the monitors set the music at 75-80db.,,,just enough to hear myself well without bringing the mic up in the mix..and sang away. I was immediately aware that I was nailing pitch alot better than usual. I loved the naturalness of singing in a somewhat "live" feeling setup. (I'm usually in a booth with cans on) I sing mostly through an MA-200, but didn't have time to warm the tube today..so I grabbed a modded Oktava 219 that was handy...I was also aware that I tended to "work" the mic alot more than in the sterile booth and cans scenario....and that was nicely appearant in the playback. The bleed was negligable and the sound was the best I've ever heard with the Oktava...(probably because I nailed the pitch so well )

Anyway this was a half hour try out...and I was really excited with the results. Lot's to experiment with there..but most notable so far was the natural, comfortable feel of singing out of the "bubble".

It's as though Lanois maybe Knows a thing or two.

[GordZilla]

Very cool Spud

[BudgetMC]

Originally Posted by Spud

It's as though Lanois maybe Knows a thing or two.

Whodathunkit?

[Heartfelt]

Ya, i just did 3 edited takes with cans and would be willing to toss it all and try that. Being a performer, I already know it should be an improvement.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[A LaMere]

I've tried this technique before... but I've just never been able to "nail it" for my own vocals..

I'll have to give it another try at some point I think...

Fwiw, the sm7b works wonders in this situation.. blocking out A TON of the background noise... I've got a beta 58 too, but I've never loved the sound of it in most recording situations.. sometimes it sounds allright on guitars..

I'm super surprised how little room/other noises that the sm7 mic tends to pick up...

[Spud]

Originally Posted by GordZilla

Very cool Spud

I'm gonna give it heck tomorrow with 4 or 5 different mics. Lanois spoke of the beta 58..I have a regular 58...but that was Bono...I think I'll stick to the LDC's for now.

Originally Posted by BudgetMC

Whodathunkit?

whuddayano?

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Ya, i just did 3 edited takes with cans and would be willing to toss it all and try that. Being a performer, I already know it should be an improvement.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Editing...yeah...I wonder if a track with even that nominal bleed would give Melodyne (for instance) the hic-ups...hmmmm...

Originally Posted by A LaMere

I've tried this technique before... but I've just never been able to "nail it" for my own vocals..

I'll have to give it another try at some point I think...

Fwiw, the sm7b works wonders in this situation.. blocking out A TON of the background noise... I've got a beta 58 too, but I've never loved the sound of it in most recording situations.. sometimes it sounds allright on guitars..

I'm super surprised how little room/other noises that the sm7 mic tends to pick up...

Cool A Lamere...I actually got what I thought was pretty good rear rejection even with the LDC Oktava 219 today. I had the music down pretty low though.

SM7b gets alot of good comments here...I'm beginning to think I...well...the slutz thing

[John Suitcase]

I'm sure someone's mentioned it elsewhere, but if you wire one of the speakers backwards, then find the right spot for the mic, you can get very little bleed. You'll have to listen to the playback in mono, of course.

I've done the mic in front of the pa thing, it works , though you have to use the same setup for the whole vocal take, to keep the tone consistent. Also, if you are getting some bleed, that's ok, just make sure there's nothing terrible in the backing tracks, like a rough guitar solo, etc.

[Spud]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

Also, if you are getting some bleed, that's ok, just make sure there's nothing terrible in the backing tracks, like a rough guitar solo, etc.

Heh...yeah I thought about that...better make sure you're singing to the keeper tracks..or a definite clash could crop up...even if the bleed is pretty far back.

And yes, I've read about the phase cancelling speaker set up and so on...sounded like more trouble than worth to me...but there's a couple things I haven't learned yet..

[minus-sounds.com]

As I have said before, I use only this technique at home and usually I am using a MD441. Been a hyper cardiod, it is very tight and the built in pop filter is a liberation.

[Remoteness]

With the proper mic placement I find less leakage (with this setup) than a pair of loud headphones in front of the mic.

Besides recording vocals in the CRM I have also used speakers in the studio.

The first time I tried this technique was in 1978...
It was an awesome experience because I noticed that you can get minimal leakage when everything is positioned right. Back in '78 I used a GTR amp. Nowadays, I have used nearfields, stage monitors or Hotspots for this task.

[Jules]

Some singers just get lost for pitch with headphones.

If you are on a session and the singer is howling flat or sharp consistently on the 'loud chorus' parts - its really worth giving this a shot. Its an old 'pro trick'

(tip: dont get too wrapped up in flipping phase of speakers or obsessing about bleed thru (cause you ARE going to get some) just remember its the vocal energy, passion and pitch you are going for, not technical audio perfection

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Jules

... Its an old 'pro trick'

(tip: dont get too wrapped up in flipping phase of speakers or obsessing about bleed thru (cause you ARE going to get some) just remember its the vocal energy, passion and pitch you are going for, not technical audio perfection

I'd read about this technique before, but sort of blew it off as a novelty thing...then to hear Daniel so matter of fact about it..."this is a technique I use all the time"...love it,..and thanks again for getting him here.

Yep..just my 1/2 hour trial showed me the bleed wasn't going to be a big deal..I do wonder if Melodyne (when or if needed) will freak out at the background noise.


Cool everyone. Well it's sure an enlightening discovery for me....a really substantial "tool" and it didn't come from VK or Sweetwater

[larrykane]

Originally Posted by Spud

Did a quick set up at the end of my day. I wanted to try this. Got about ten feet back from the monitors set the music at 75-80db.,,,just enough to hear myself well without bringing the mic up in the mix..and sang away. I was immediately aware that I was nailing pitch alot better than usual. I loved the naturalness of singing in a somewhat "live" feeling setup". ......."probably because I nailed the pitch so well )

Originally Posted by Spud

Anyway this was a half hour try out...and I was really excited with the results. Lot's to experiment with there..but most notable so far was the natural, comfortable feel of singing out of the "bubble".

It's as though Lanois maybe Knows a thing or two.

That's exciting news!! I'll try it. One thing I have noticed with cans is that a lot of variables will affect intonation even for "right on" usually singers. Even the brand of can. Probably would be a good idea to roll off lows a bit in the monitors to help even more with bleed.

[Unclenny]

I'm in.

Let it bleed.

[ddp]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

I'm in.

Let it bleed.

Seems like a good idea. I'm gonna try it with my SM7B

[Heartfelt]

As a vocalist, it is usually is the highend that throws me off. If it is a condenser with a hyped top end, I really struggle with pitch, even live. I noticed my cans have excetional top end as well.

Put me on an SM-58 and I'm good as gold. I even found that when evaluating pitch on vocals, I do better on computer speakers than on my Yam's.

Is it just me?

[A LaMere]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

I'm in.

Let it bleed.

Damn right Lenny... Let it bleed!

[Companda]

In regards to bleed there is another way of eliminating it that hasn't been mentioned here,(I'm not sure if it's mentioned on GS elsewhere or not). After you've done the vocal take, do another recording without the vocal but with the mike, monitor etc in the same place. Then flip the phase of the second recording and viola, no bleed.
But bleed is good sometimes.

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Companda

In regards to bleed there is another way of eliminating it that hasn't been mentioned here,(I'm not sure if it's mentioned on GS elsewhere or not). After you've done the vocal take, do another recording without the vocal but with the mike, monitor etc in the same place. Then flip the phase of the second recording and viola, no bleed.
But bleed is good sometimes.

That's very cool...I'll give it a try. I'm going to attempt some serious tracking this way today.

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Companda

After you've done the vocal take, do another recording without the vocal but with the mike, monitor etc in the same place. Then flip the phase of the second recording and viola, no bleed.

Yeah, well..

If you were using a compressor.. you can sometimes kiss this trick goodbye..

Reason:

Take 1 has bleed levels moving up and down in reaction to compressor action on vocal
Take 2 has no compression 'action' as there isnt the loud vocal triggering it

So bleed on both takes WILL be slightly different and the phase removal trick really needs the signals to be exactly the same.

But give it a whirl.. and see if it works, I dont mean to pee on the campfire

Its all good..

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Jules

I dont mean to pee on the campfire

Its all good..

Makes perfectly good sense..pee or no. So far the bleed seems almost complementary in my brief experiments...so I'm on no major quest to kill the bleed......yet :-)

Meanwhile I want to shoot a take through Melodyne and see what the background bleed does to the analysis process there..I'm getting the pitch enough better I may not need Melodyne LOL!

[Heartfelt]

I hope you try it and let us know Spud.

[warhead]

I did this for some scratch vocals this past weekend on a cheap 58 knockoff mic and actually was amazed at how little bleed there was. I didn't know Lanois did this but it's interesting stuff for sure. The singer was slightly off to the side, maybe 8 feet from the monitors, and we were probably pushing 95 to 100dB in here.

War

[minus-sounds.com]

This technique would only not work if you want an accapella release of the song, with the given vocal takes.

[ddp]

Originally Posted by ddp

Seems like a good idea. I'm gonna try it with my SM7B

Tried this out today. Worked well with the SM7B very little bleed.

My time was not as good as I have with the headphones on then.

I Guess I've spent too many hours with the cans on singing. I guess I will be sticking to the old one earphone half off to hear myself trick.

Good trick to keep in your bag though for use with other people.

[goobersezhey]

An extended discussion on this topic in the latest Tape Op letters section. Lots of different takes on this technique.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by ddp

Tried this out today. Worked well with the SM7B very little bleed.

My time was not as good as I have with the headphones on then.

I Guess I've spent too many hours with the cans on singing. I guess I will be sticking to the old one earphone half off to hear myself trick.

Good trick to keep in your bag though for use with other people.

I feel it's more important about what works for you rather than trying to master someone elses technique, especially when you're not comfortable with it.

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience has been that headphones screw up both pitch and time to a certain degree.

Many older musicians who did session work before the mid 1960s when headphones became common have told me they think the quality of musicianship took a giant step backwards after everybody started using headphones in order to have enough separation to be able to punch in mistakes.

[Spud]

I guess ultimately it's for sure a "what works best for you" call. I like Lanois' discription of Bono digging the live "juiced up" aspect. You take a dynamic performer and "belt it out" kind of singer like Bono...who's won his fan base with those qualities..then tell him "OK step into the little padded cell here..put on those headphones....and oh yeah, knock it out of the park baby" (not that Bono isn't a pro who could do it one way or another)...I think there's a potential for dampening and sterilizing the performance.

So far, and I've got an hour in with this, I'm just really aware of an improvement pitch wise for me....and a sense of being more connected to the music..which I'm really liking. I often do a stack of maybe 8 BG vocal tracks and stack them up...I surely wouldn't want to use this technique for that. ..that'd be 8x the bleed factor plus the lead vocal..I don't think sotutt

But for a main vocal trac I'm thinking this might really be the sauce for me. I sang a quick take yesterday with my MA-200, which is my current favorite vocal mic..I really enjoyed it and I like what I'm hearing even if it is me I'm using the Mojave through a Portico 5012..I was thinking I'll load a short sample and get some feedback on the vocal sound from any of the illustrious members here who'd care to listen. I notice there are different audio file options in the attachments drop down..what is the best format and bit rate here to upload say a 35-40 sec. clip? and stay in the limits.

TIA

[Spud]

Originally Posted by goobersezhey

An extended discussion on this topic in the latest Tape Op letters section. Lots of different takes on this technique.

Hey goober...sounds interesting. Is that available online?...or a magazine? do you have link handy?

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

My experience has been that headphones screw up both pitch and time to a certain degree.

Many older musicians who did session work before the mid 1960s when headphones became common have told me they think the quality of musicianship took a giant step backwards after everybody started using headphones in order to have enough separation to be able to punch in mistakes.

People know quite well now, artists and engineers both, that a poor take can simply be "doctored up" later, It's no doubt made for some sub-par and lazy work...I guess, in many ways, it's pretty cool that we have all the awesome tools to do it though :-)