Low End Console- Oxymoron(?)

[acdctom92]

Is there such a thing as a low end console desk? I'm talking about the SSL, Neve, all those big brand mixing desks, but in a CHEAP low end form?

[Audio Hombre]

have you used the search function? loads of options....

[lu432]

Heck there is a recession going on in the US. And major consoles are dead. You'll see them for a few more years in major studios. But eventually analog console will be a thing of the past, and we will be running strictly digital boards in all studios. Especially when you start eq'ing ********ly high frequencies, like you can with DSD and DXD. I might be worth getting a good digital board at this time like the SSL Matrix or the Neve Gensis, or even better a Euphonix board. Besides those boards I might actually consider paying 20 k for a nice large format console like a G board, but I won't pay anymore then that since they aren't warrentied, they kill your electric bill, if anything breaks down they will be insanely expensive to replace, and they don't control your software, and eventually being able to get anything will be difficult since they use lead for specific parts. (And I love that board trust me). Oh and yeah....try finding someone qualified to service them. There is another headache.

For a lot of us (including myself) chanage will be difficult and slow since a lot of us are set in our ways and like the feel of analog. But if I were you I might invest in a really cool digital board and save your money for outboard gear, unless you are thinking about getting something like an AWS. By the way this is just an opinion and not ment to be fact. I wish you the very best on your search.

[acdctom92]

Originally Posted by lu432

unfortunately true story=/

One of these kids I was talking to with gave me that exact speech. As horrible as it is... its true. Give it some time, analog will be a thing of the past.

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by acdctom92

One of these kids I was talking to with gave me that exact speech. As horrible as it is... its true. Give it some time, analog will be a thing of the past.

Analog will NEVER be a thing of the past as soundwaves produced to make sound are analog and your ears which capture those soundwaves are analog.

Mark my words: the debate between how that sound is captured - analog reproduction vs digitized approximation of reality - will rage on for ages. As for me: analog all the way.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by lu432

Heck there is a recession going on in the US. And major consoles are dead. You'll see them for a few more years in major studios. But eventually analog console will be a thing of the past, and we will be running strictly digital boards in all studios. Especially when you start eq'ing ********ly high frequencies, like you can with DSD and DXD. I might be worth getting a good digital board at this time like the SSL Matrix or the Neve Gensis, or even better a Euphonix board. Besides those boards I might actually consider paying 20 k for a nice large format console like a G board, but I won't pay anymore then that since they aren't warrentied, they kill your electric bill, if anything breaks down they will be insanely expensive to replace, and they don't control your software, and eventually being able to get anything will be difficult since they use lead for specific parts. (And I love that board trust me). Oh and yeah....try finding someone qualified to service them. There is another headache.

For a lot of us (including myself) chanage will be difficult and slow since a lot of us are set in our ways and like the feel of analog. But if I were you I might invest in a really cool digital board and save your money for outboard gear, unless you are thinking about getting something like an AWS. By the way this is just an opinion and not ment to be fact. I wish you the very best on your search.

Nah, there'll always be a market for analogue. It will evolve of course - the new SSL, Neve and API mini-high-end consoles are evidence of that.

But whilst there's still analogue sources, there'll be analogue recording paths...and analogue outboard...and an analogue way to mix it together for some.

BTW the Neve Genesis and SSL Matrix are analogue - just with (in the case of the ssl at least) a DAW controller built in. See what I mean?

If I've got to stay digital, I'd rather use a DAW and a controller than a digital desk (unless you've got the money for a PROPER digital desk, like an SSL C200 - in which case, you can probably afford a reasonable analogue desk instead). Any time you're going to complicate things with multiple faders and digital EQ sections (eg PT and the digital board EQ) you're just making things harder on yourself.

[shadewind]

It has never been a question about digital vs. analog, not in all parts of the chain at least. Sound waves will always be analog so some parts in the chain will _always_ be analog, simply because such a thing as a digital microphone cannot exist, there has to be a converter somewhere. But I guess that analog mixing will sometime become a thing of the past. Some things, though, are necessarily analog.

[Baron Lands]

Im just a student, so I'm no expert (yet) but I dont think analogue mixing will die out, I myself, have plans to utilise an 8 in 24 out interface and summing the channels from my DAW into respective channels into an analogue desk.

Can anyone tell me I'm not going to benefit?

Digital traction and analogue modelling? I cant wait to have it set-up...

Now just saving the money...

Also there are always going to be engineers and producers (myself included) that believe a Valve pre-amp or Valve compressor can colour a sound digital reproduction will never achieve. (Also gating will always be analogue).

I guess thats because of the physical action of the circuit voltage. What a lovely thought...

That said, without digital equipment, certain music wouldnt exist that would make the world a duller place. Surely, the only restriction anyone really has today, is there imagination.

Viva Fletcher & Neve!

[Drumminkiger]

What i think a lot of people do not realize is that with the advent of daw's, getting into recording has become more affordable and so there are more hobby and armature engineers everywhere with all digital setups. I am one of those, so im not trying to pick on any of you guys. SSL is probally selling about the same amount of large format desks that it did in the mid 80's, because all the high end clients can still afford them and still prefer them, and we are not their intended market. What they are doing is capitalizing on the prosumer revolution by offering a lot of outboard gear and plug ins that we can all afford to save up and buy a couple of here and there. So i guess my point is that the change is that there are a lot more of us that can make good recordings but cannot afford a LFC, not that less people are mixing in analog. All the big time engineers will always mix like that, and when studios like Conway install a digital desk then i will accept that there is a change in the standard.

With that in mind, if you want something low end you should look into a Toft ATB or a Soundcraft Ghost or something. They are nice sounding boards we all hear, you just have to have the DAW to back them up with ins and outs to make them effective. Anything thats a step up there is going to cost you a lot more then most of us can probally budget if you're on this forum.

[big country]

when I looked into my porcelain bowl this morning it was full of binaural heads

yea I know it's bowl-shit

[Snatchman]

Some digital consoles : electric cars, hybrid/gas mix. Save money, but cramped ride it'll get you there...

analog console : musclecars, requires expensive hi octane gas, pay out the a$$, but..Big power!..get you there fast!..

[deuc647]

Analog will always be around, digital is good and accurate. I disagree with LU432 in the sense that people who wanna EQ ultrahigh freq curves will always resort to analog EQ because digital eqs have phasing problems. Only the real analog eqs can go high and stay in phase i.e. gml8200 sontec api etc etc

[Jay-]

what would be really nice is a m-audio or yamaha or mackie digital unit about 24 channels but with actual API or SSL slots where the end buyer could install API modules... yeah... best of both worlds.

[lu432]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Analog will always be around, digital is good and accurate. I disagree with LU432 in the sense that people who wanna EQ ultrahigh freq curves will always resort to analog EQ because digital eqs have phasing problems. Only the real analog eqs can go high and stay in phase i.e. gml8200 sontec api etc etc

Really? I wasn't familiar that the 8200 and sontec hit frequenices that high, like 40k and above? I also didn't know that DSD pluggins like the ones by Pyramix such as the EQ-X had Phase issues. Hmmm... Interesting.

[lu432]

Why wouldn't you? Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean its not there or effecting you mix. It also doesn't mean that you can't percieve the effects its having to your sound. Try Rolling off everything above 20k one day on you mixes. And listen. You'll notice a significant difference in your mix. Something won't sound right. There is a lot of information up there. Although you can't hear above 20k you sure as heck can percieve changes that high.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by Jay-

what would be really nice is a m-audio or yamaha or mackie digital unit about 24 channels but with actual API or SSL slots where the end buyer could install API modules... yeah... best of both worlds.

Yep..Wish I could knock some holes in my Tascam ( analog tho') and stick in some 500 modules..!...

[erock]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

Yep..Wish I could knock some holes in my Tascam ( analog tho') and stick in some 500 modules..!...

Hmmm...The 500 series consoles...If I were a manufacturer I would jump all over that. API has the right idea about the 1608 where you can put diff. modules in, but they need to build essentially a console 'frame'. faders, pan, patching, meterbridge and a master section with a spot for a master bus comp. then you can make your own strips

Ex: ch1 is an API512c with a Speck EQ and a Purple Action comp. Ch2 is an Avedis with an API graphic EQ and a 525 comp.

Granted...it wouldn't be low end when you put all those in, but it would be low end if you just bought the frame and master power supply!!

(I demand full credit for inspiring this product if anyone decides to come up with this. 30% of all sales go to me. )

[Chaellus]

dont need to be eqing 40k thats a bit ridicuolus....i low pass everything above 18khz all the time... and still sounds great...

[Kurbs101]

Originally Posted by erock

Hmmm...The 500 series consoles...If I were a manufacturer I would jump all over that. API has the right idea about the 1608 where you can put diff. modules in, but they need to build essentially a console 'frame'. faders, pan, patching, meterbridge and a master section with a spot for a master bus comp. then you can make your own strips

Ex: ch1 is an API512c with a Speck EQ and a Purple Action comp. Ch2 is an Avedis with an API graphic EQ and a 525 comp.

Granted...it wouldn't be low end when you put all those in, but it would be low end if you just bought the frame and master power supply!!

(I demand full credit for inspiring this product if anyone decides to come up with this. 30% of all sales go to me. )

ever hear of tonelux man? sorry but your idea has already been taken

[erock]

Originally Posted by Kurbs101

ever hear of tonelux man? sorry but your idea has already been taken

Can you put any 500 series module in it or just Tonelux?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by erock

Can you put any 500 series module in it or just Tonelux?

Just Tonelux.

Anyway, there IS a company that hooked up something like a 500-series desk...It came up here on GS a year or so ago...I'm totally blanking on the name right now, though. It's a couple of buckets that form the modules for channels, with a fader for each channel, as well as a direct output (I didn't see any bussing capabilities, but they coulda been in there). Also no aux sends to speak of. It's basically like a Lunchbox with an output fader. Primitive, but along the lines of what you're talking about.

I'm sure if you search GS or the interwebs hard enough you can find it.

[B-San]

So how does something like the Toft ATB stand up to the higher end consoles (such as API), eq wise? I want to get an affordable console so that I may have analog eqs on every channel, but I do not want a 'low end' sound if you will... Many thanks!

[lu432]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

dont need to be eqing 40k thats a bit ridicuolus....i low pass everything above 18khz all the time... and still sounds great...

Dang.... You kill all the air in your mixes? Rough.

[Mertmo]

Give me a break. No, it's not "rough", it's an aesthetic choice. And he is not even
CLOSE to the only pro engineer who rolls off the extreme high end regularly.
If you do some searching you will find that this is how many engineers achieve the
illusion of their digital recordings having "warmth" or sounding "tape-like".
Maybe you don't like that sound, nothing wrong with that. But just because it never occurred to
you that someone might choose to do it on purpose does not make it wrong or a
dubious choice at all.

That high end roll off is exactly one of the little details about an analog mixing board
that we all think sounds so good...
Rolling off extreme hi end or extreme low end is just another little example of how
LIMITATIONS CAN BE A GOOD THING!

[erock]

Originally Posted by Mertmo2

Give me a break. No, it's not "rough", it's an aesthetic choice. And he is not even
CLOSE to the only pro engineer who rolls off the extreme high end regularly.
If you do some searching you will find that this is how many engineers achieve the
illusion of their digital recordings having "warmth" or sounding "tape-like".
Maybe you don't like that sound, nothing wrong with that. But just because it never occurred to
you that someone might choose to do it on purpose does not make it wrong or a
dubious choice at all.

That high end roll off is exactly one of the little details about an analog mixing board
that we all think sounds so good...
Rolling off extreme hi end or extreme low end is just another little example of how
LIMITATIONS CAN BE A GOOD THING!

I pretty much agree with this.

[lu432]

If you say so. I mean I have killed highs in kick drums, bass instruments all the time and kill lows in just about everything else to keep instruments in their frequency range. But killing all the highs above 18k have never produced a desirable result (especially when I start cranking the stuff on the mains here), and I have had a few assistants show me some of their mixes where they have done just that, and I have always said....."There is something missing with you mix" "Your mix is lacking breath" Then they proceed to tell me they killed the highs. Like you said its a matter of opinion. But I have never worked with anyone that has, and I have never heard positive results from it.

But again if you say so....thumbsup

[PoorGlory]

The B&W 800D speakers go to 28K. Good luck finding typical consumer loudspeakers that go even that high.

You can't hear 40K. Most adults can't hear 20K. Go ahead and generate a 20hz signal and tell me if you can hear it. Then tell me boosting something an octave higher makes any sort of difference. If you really think boosting 40K is helping the "air" in your mixes, then whatever. Meanwhile, boutique analog gear companies are doing better than ever, so I don't know why you think analog is going away. Until people can shout binary code into a microphone and accept binary code into their ears and have their brains do the conversion, analog has to live on. Sound is analog.

So keep boosting 40K and let us know in 10 years if everything has truly gone digital. I think you'll still be using mics, preamps, amplifiers, and speakers (all analog) and I'm sure some studios will still be using tape. Meanwhile digital gear will still be designed to emulate analog gear. Fun.

[gainstages]

wow - talk about getting off track.

the mackie 8 buss was designed years ago to be a "poor mans ssl". really, it's a long way from an ssl but was still a great innovation in price/feature/quality.

you can pick up one cheap. supplement it with a couple of nice pieces of outboard gear (like a couple of good mic preamps, a great compressor, and a great eq) and you can create a pretty powerful system (flame suit on!) . I've heard of a few people spending a little money and time to make some mods to the mackies with good results, but don't know what they did.

of course, there are a lot of other things to. I have a friend who is having great success with a TL Tube Tracker, perfect front end for small projects.

[lu432]

Well killing your mix at around 18k is your thang then great bro. But honestly I didn't say I hear 40k. I said I can percieve when my assistants kill the highs in their mix like you do. And I said you can do stuff up that high with DSD and DXD technology. And its especially important when grabbing information. And when you have analog technology like avalon 2077's and Manley Passive that eq extremely high frequenices ask your self? Is there a reason that they put that there?

Or maybe I could close my eyes and ignore it. And forget that there IS a reason its there, and that there are so many different companies that have things well above 20k on their equipment and software (Roger Nichols plugins for example).

Now back to my earlier statement. Analog companies are not doing that well. We can see this by the recents shift in VST, AU, and RTAS plugins that emulate hardware. We can also see it with more engineers mixing ITB. Finally we can also see it by companies like SSL moving to create mice rather then boards. So if you ask me, the market 10 years from now as far as analog gear is concerned looks dim. Do I like the sound of that.... hell no. Am I understanding that this is probably what is going to happen. Yes. Even students in schools right now across the board, which are our future don't even like working with analog gear. Even when we try to push it and show them the advantages of it. However, denial of where the future is going is not healthy either. There are a lot of amazing engineers that were never able to make the jump from analog to pro tools in the late 90's and 00's. Who had the same mentality. I just don't think having this kind of mentality is healthy nor beneficial. People will have to eventually embrace the future,,, even if you don't like where its going.


Finally, back to the question at hand I think right now the best boards for your money honestly are the Tascam DM - 4800 for under $5g's and the Yamaha O2R for under $10g's. They have pre's, eq's, dynamics, and easily integrate with various different DAW software. And the best part is that with a nice TT Patch bay you pretty much have endless possibilities. The other thing, is these boards will be around for a while because they also accept surround sound formats. I would definitely keep my eyes out for a used one of these. They have numerous advantages.

[PoorGlory]

Give me some examples of your recordings where I can hear this 40K effect. What studio do you run?