PreSonus StudioLive

[AMaziad]

Harmony Central has a press release for a new digital mixer from PreSonus.

Harmony Central®: PreSonus Announces StudioLive™ Digital Mixer

[mr jkn]

Ooh, I had a dream last night of a small digital mixer like this. interesting.

[severe]

looks like it's got some features.

nice i/o, at first glance.

pretty cool. thumbsup

[gollumsluvslave]

looks like it's got some features.

nice i/o, at first glance.

I thought so as well - really like the fat channel layout, and I have previously been looking at DM3200/4800.

The fact that the firewire interface is built in is nice too.

However, no word clock in, or digital inputs render this a bit useless to me.

I can kind of understand a digital mixer not having a Coax / Optical input, but no word clock means that thsi won't be able to slave to anything else meaning that if you have any other digital gear, you can't use it with StudioLive.

Seems like a bit of a glaring omission.

[studioguy]

DAMN, that's a Sexy looking mixer!

I love the features too.

- All digital mixing and effects processing is done with 32-bit floating point precision for unmatched musicality.

32-bit...nice!

- Hi-Definition analog to digital converters (118dB dynamic range)

WHAT!! That's more dynamic range than my Rosetta!


This is really going to be an exciting product!

Any idea on a release date?

[severe]

studioguy, huh?


smooth.

[Alndln]

Originally Posted by gollumsluvslave

However, no word clock in, or digital inputs render this a bit useless to me.

I can kind of understand a digital mixer not having a Coax / Optical input, but no word clock means that thsi won't be able to slave to anything else meaning that if you have any other digital gear, you can't use it with StudioLive.

Seems like a bit of a glaring omission.

Ditto, especially for the $$$ their asking for this thing.

[peeder]

I see no reason why this can't sync via Firewire. You would have a separate interface for your other digital pieces, sync the computer to that, and this would be synced up via firewire.

OK onto this unit: this is a direct evolution of the Mackie Onyx 1640 with firewire card: they took that basic layout as a base and advanced it in each area they could think of. (And note their new preamps are called "XMAX" which is a riff on "ONYX"...wonder if they even sound similar.) The Onyx 1640 is great as a cheap tracking console but it doesn't serve as a mixing console really...you're expected to do that in the DAW.

With this presonus piece you get to mix digitally with the mixer even after you have recorded: the Mackie only sent two digital outs to the board for monitoring purposes. This lets you switch to all the firewire channels (22 going to the computer, 18 coming back) with the "Y" buttons at top. And instead of analog EQs you have a whole digital processing section with dynamics etc. The converters are higher spec than the Onyx firewire card. One unfortunate thing is the HPF is digital here: I always like to HPF prior to conversion so I can print as hot as I prefer, but I guess I'd have to do that with external preamps.

A major question with this board is latency...24 bit conversion and 32 bit processing takes a while to run and if you are using this for tracking you won't want latency going back into the cue mix. Another question is where the signal is tapped for recording: do you print dry or wet, and is there an option for either? There is an analog tap with two DSubs like the Mackie has.

The metering is excellent looking (I'd have to see it in practice) and the layout seems very workable. But it still won't be as immediate as the analog counterpart. When recording a band live I treat it much like a sound reinforcement situation where I need to be able to react quickly to what's going on, and nothing beats the direct interface of an analog desk for that.

Anyone know how much these will cost street? (saying around $2K?) And whether the sample rate can go above 48 (or even 44.1)? (saying no...)

[Duardo]

I can kind of understand a digital mixer not having a Coax / Optical input, but no word clock means that thsi won't be able to slave to anything else meaning that if you have any other digital gear, you can't use it with StudioLive.

Since it doesn't have any digital connections, why would you even need word clock? If you want to use it with any other digital gear you'll just be making analog connections anyhow...

[pjplayer]

this does look nice, but my experience with presonus suggests that it will come with rubbish drivers and major problems on release will not be fixed or fixed only partially at the cost of performance.

[audiothings]

Since it doesn't have any digital connections, why would you even need word clock? If you want to use it with any other digital gear you'll just be making analog connections anyhow...

well spotted

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Since it doesn't have any digital connections, why would you even need word clock? If you want to use it with any other digital gear you'll just be making analog connections anyhow...

Because it records to a DAW, and you might have more than one interface hooked to that DAW (this thing is a big interface). But it's OK because the sync will be carried over firewire.

Something else I want to know about this is whether the analog inserts are post-firewire input or not. I.e. must they be used with the preamps/line ins or can they be used at mix time? If they can be used for mixing something coming from the DAW then this is quite a powerful little board.

C'mon presonus publish a block diagram.

[vicenzajay]

Originally Posted by pjplayer

this does look nice, but my experience with presonus suggests that it will come with rubbish drivers and major problems on release will not be fixed or fixed only partially at the cost of performance.

I have the exact same prediction.


Unfortunate, really

[sirthought]

Diagrams, indeed. Presonus doesn't really show many nitty-gritty details on this thing. Why is that, hmmm?

This looks pretty cool in many ways. I like that you can use external pres or effects with this. And that there is no digital insert connection is okay.
BIG Questions so far...

1) What's the sample rate? (Come on Presonus, this is one of your main details!)

2) TrackLive software looks okay, but I would prefer to interface and work directly with my DAW software when recording in the studio. (i.e. Yamaha n12 and Cubase) It would be great to be able to mix with this board directly within a DAW of your choice. How does it work to send signals out from a DAW to mix?

3) Back-panel shows TRS MAIN OUT and XLR MAIN OUTPUT. A Sonic State video (here) shows Presonus claiming you can send one signal to a front of house (TRS) and the other to something like a broadcast camera. That's cool. Are these the same mix bus? Can they be different?

4) Is the CR OUTPUT the same mix bus as the MAIN?

5) Does this have source select? Something to switch between hearing the DAW, stereo bus, aux bus, or 2-track tape?

6) No headphone jacks?!? How would headphones be handled? When studio recording could you use the Aux Out jacks for headphones to each musician? Can each musician get their own mix using Studio Live?

7) There are two FW ports on the back. Can you link two of these together? Can we connect other devices with FW?

8) Recall sounds cool. It doesn't mention automation. Does that include faders levels, pans, etc. within different parts of a mix?

[Savernake]

this thing would be ideal in many ways. Its a shame SSL haven't done something like this with Duende, instead of their matrix which only seems useful to a very specific project studio market. They'd charge too much as well.

If a company makes an expandable model like this, with plug-in control (does this have that?) and make it look less like a toy, I'd get it!

[severe]

StudioLive 16.4.2

[sirthought]

Sonic State - News (Video Item) MESSE08:Presonus’ Hot Firewire Console Video, StudioLive is in the front of house

[sirthought]

[peeder]

My remaining quesitons really boil down to 2 numbers:

1) What is the total ADC/DSP/DAC latency of the system?

2) How many DACs are included in the mixer?

If I knew 2) then I'd know how much analog could be employed during mix time. There must be at least 8 DACs, because there are the 6 auxes post-digital plus the master. If there were 24 DACs that allowed all the analog inserts to be employed during mix time that would be incredible.

Other than that it's purely a matter of how the DSP and conversion sounds. Not sure why they are aiming this at live...I would like 24 or 32 channels live. For studio work at this pricepoint 16 channels is more than fine especially as an add-on to a 003R etc. I imagine they aren't very confident about the sound which is why they are shying away from studio targetting.

[Duardo]

For studio work at this pricepoint 16 channels is more than fine especially as an add-on to a 003R etc. I imagine they aren't very confident about the sound which is why they are shying away from studio targetting.

This really wouldn't be a useful addon to a 003R since it doesn't have any ADAT outputs...and I've never found Presonus not to be confident about the audio quality of their products (and certainly not in the press release for this mixer).

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Duardo

This really wouldn't be a useful addon to a 003R since it doesn't have any ADAT outputs...and I've never found Presonus not to be confident about the audio quality of their products (and certainly not in the press release for this mixer).

You would use it with Logic or something else to track and then move your tracks into PT if you wanted. For 16ADCs with 118db dynamic range it is quite cheap at $2K. Of course there is no THD+N spec published on the converters, and one would have to see the THD, and listen to the converters.

BTW other photos of the thing show a single headphone jack near where your right elbow would sit (coming out the bottom right of that pic...there's a little glint there).

[shadewind]

Originally Posted by peeder

Because it records to a DAW, and you might have more than one interface hooked to that DAW (this thing is a big interface). But it's OK because the sync will be carried over firewire.

Something else I want to know about this is whether the analog inserts are post-firewire input or not. I.e. must they be used with the preamps/line ins or can they be used at mix time? If they can be used for mixing something coming from the DAW then this is quite a powerful little board.

C'mon presonus publish a block diagram.

With ASIO, at least, you can't use multiple interfaces anyway.

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by shadewind

With ASIO, at least, you can't use multiple interfaces anyway.

But I'm wondering if you can chain two of these, or another interface, together with FW?

As long as it's part of the same chain ASIO should work, correct?




I've been looking seriously at the Yamaha n12, which has 52bit DSP versus this units 24bit DSP. Not sure how much that difference would mater. The Presonus looks nice to me because of
- the 16 inputs
- Presonus' preamps aren't the best in world, but they aren't bad either
- easy all-in-one board, interface, effects that can send different headphone or monitor mixes out
- the recall sounds very convenient

But there are a lot of questions unanswered and I wish that someone from Presonus would show up here to answer them.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by sirthought

But I'm wondering if you can chain two of these, or another interface, together with FW?

As long as it's part of the same chain ASIO should work, correct?




I've been looking seriously at the Yamaha n12, which has 52bit DSP versus this units 24bit DSP. Not sure how much that difference would mater. The Presonus looks nice to me because of
- the 16 inputs
- Presonus' preamps aren't the best in world, but they aren't bad either
- easy all-in-one board, interface, effects that can send different headphone or monitor mixes out
- the recall sounds very convenient

But there are a lot of questions unanswered and I wish that someone from Presonus would show up here to answer them.

Presonus showing up here to answer, goodluck. They don't even show up on there own forums to help with all the new firewire interfaces thats out now. Go check there forum topics on tech support, there using people as beta testers for poorly design drivers. You wanna beta test, buy one of firewire interface.

[True North]

This looks like a well laid out user interface. It seems a lot more intuitive to use than the current Yamaha options. Overall it looks like an interesting product, 2 things bother me

1) I can't seem to find anything on sampling rates and latencies, did I miss something ?

2) How hard would it have been to make the EQ's fully parametric ??. At the very least the mids should have been made parametric.

Rick if you are out there give us some more details, cheers!!

[Reg]

Originally Posted by True North

This looks like a well laid out user interface. It seems a lot more intuitive to use than the current Yamaha options. Overall it looks like an interesting procust, 2 things bother me

1) I can't seem to find anything on sampling rates and latencies, did I miss something ?

2) How hard would it have been to make the EQ's fully parametric ??. At the very least the mids should have been made parametric.

Rick if you are out there give us some more details, cheers!!

It's PreSonus firewire interface right?, you'll have more to worry about than the sampling rate and latencies. Go check out the ProSonus forum under FireStudio tech support. You like beta testing????. No disrespect intended, just a heads up for people getting fooled by the hype.dfegad

[peeder]

I think every firewire interface is going to have a forum full of whining...mostly from people running Windows with gawdknowswhat cards and chips etc. At the margins these boxes are sold for, it's going to be about impossible to provide hand-holding and make a profit. So if it doesn't work you send it back and see that the competition also doesn't work and then you decide that bargain you got on that computer didn't work.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by peeder

I think every firewire interface is going to have a forum full of whining...mostly from people running Windows with gawdknowswhat cards and chips etc. At the margins these boxes are sold for, it's going to be about impossible to provide hand-holding and make a profit. So if it doesn't work you send it back and see that the competition also doesn't work and then you decide that bargain you got on that computer didn't work.

Good point, but they don't advertize that it might not work with Windows do they, and then they give out typical specs that should work and it don't work, that's my point. People are not asking for hand holding just support for a product they were told would work with there system. You call that whinning?, do you work for PreSonus by any chance???. Your right, it's about profit and only profit, thanks for pointing that out. I almost forgot that profit is all some company's care about. Maybe some day you will get caught with something you were told would work, hope I don't hear you whinne hear. People were told to wait for updated drivers that took months and months and when they posted the new drivers and still don't work, you call that whinning???.

[cbc459]

I can't find any mention anywhere of this thing having phantom power. If that's so, it seems like a huge problem. Otherwise, this unit seems like a dream come true to me.

I'm wondering how the firewire returns would be managed though. For example in Logic, in a channel strip, would you be able to assign each track to one of the 18 available returns, or is some automatic, unseen process?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by cbc459

I can't find any mention anywhere of this thing having phantom power. If that's so, it seems like a huge problem. Otherwise, this unit seems like a dream come true to me.

I'm wondering how the firewire returns would be managed though. For example in Logic, in a channel strip, would you be able to assign each track to one of the 18 available returns, or is some automatic, unseen process?

I have a hunch the "48V" buttons on every input strip might have something to do with phantom power.

I would think the thing is just another firewire interface and those inputs and outputs will appear in Logic.