It's not KICKING ASS enough!

[Myriad_Rocker]

Advice por favor?

I have two songs that we did the reamping on over the weekend. Quality wise, things were great. From what I have read on here and many other places, you use less gain when recording distorted guitars than what you think you need. Since we had lots of doubled parts, I figured this was especially important because we don't want too much gain stacked on top of too much gain.

When listening one of the songs that night, the guitar sound was great. I was super excited about it. After listening the next day, I was kinda disappointed. It was a "heavy" guitar sound...but it didn't seem "hard rock" enough, if that makes sense. It's like there wasn't enough gain used. Am I going crazy?

On the second song, we recorded with more gain because the song had more of a Sevendust feel to it. There were plenty of doubled guitars...6 guitars to be exact. 4 Playing the regular part and 2 playing a higher part. When we got the guitars tracked and let it rip, it was heavy, but the guitars didn't seem "big enough" or "in your face" enough.

So...on these two songs...what should I do?

Here's some of the amps we used:

Mesa Dual Rectifier
Marshall JCM 800
Peavey JSX
Soldano Hot Rod 50
Twist Custom 50W All-Tube Head
Twist Custom 50W All-Tube Rack Head

The mics:

Audix i5
Shure SM7
Senn. e609s
Cascade FHII

We used the i5 and the SM7 on the rhythm tracks because that mic combo sounded best. Lead guitar work got the i5 and the FHII because it rocked on that combo...lead guitars sounded good. No worries there.

The pres:

RME FF800 Pres
Great River NV - used on the FHII

Oh yeah, the reamp box was a Little Labs Redeye...if that matters.

[nukmusic]

maybe you're being too hard on yourself. Song might be kickin a whole heap of ass.


FYI: I recommend that artists do a rough recording a new song, burn it to CD, and listen to it for a few days. Come back in, and do/redo what's needed.

[Master Tang]

Sometimes, if it doesn't sound heavy enough, I'll look at what the bass and drums are doing.

The guitars may be fine already, they just need a heavier bottom end under them.

And remember this, more gain isn't like more cowbell...

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by Master Tang

And remember this, more gain isn't like more cowbell...

Yeah, I know. But here's the thing...on the first song in question where it didn't seem heavy enough, I added in one of the reference tracks that was recorded when the DI was done. It had about as much gain as I use live. It made the song a heavier when mixed kinda low under the main part. The only reason I didn't keep it is because it had a different mic position and sounded a bit phasey. And there was also a bit too much bass. So...that's why I'm thinking I need to reamp a duplicate of a couple of the parts and mix it low in the mix just to give it that extra little bit of heaviness (for lack of better words). Opinions?

As for the bass and drums adding to the heavy factor...the drums have not been EQ'ed or anything. No compression on anything. Everything is raw. Bass sounds great tracked through the Great River. The bass guitar sounds pretty good in the mix, I think.



As for the other one...well, I don't know. It has the right gain level I want. It's just not freakin' "big enough"...

[mdme_sadie]

If I want hard and defined I usually record both a DL and the mic'd amp and mix appropriately till I have a good blend. On your second song you may need to record a slightly less heavy guitar overlay, the thing you're lacking is dynamics because of the compression of the distortion, this makes it sound smaller/closer/less separated. Another thing you could do is add an exciter to the track to try and puch some of those high frequencies (which can help push the attack a bit). Oh and for that pumping heavy sound try Jules trick of using a compressor to duck the guitars on the kick drum (use the kick drum as the compressor side chain). The other part of that big soundis phasing, just shifting the guitars phasing around can really help pull it apart some.

Mostly I find that heavy is down to the bass and eq/placement of guitar in the mix rather than the guitars actual heavyness. A good example of this would be the pixies Ana, the guitar is very very light and clean but the overal tone is quite in your face/heavy (or few Captain Beefheart tracks, a lot of Audioslave). Most superheavy stuff tends to scoop out the mids to get more definition and weight leaving the guitars quite fizzy over a very heavy bass, it's something for you to consider as well... oh and a lot of very heavy stuff uses a large amount of automation to clean up the tracks, any mess at all will result in smushy mixes.

[Myriad_Rocker]

My school of thought is that things should sound good at each step of the way, right? I mean...if it's not sounding good now, you can't "magic" it all up after the fact.

For the first song in question, I think I'm just going to go back and add in a track with a bit more gain on each part and mix it lower. Then I'll probably use the DI track mixed low as well. Seems like a good idea and I might as well give it a whirl.

For the second, I might just try the same thing. I'll experiment and see what I come up with.

As for the compressor side chain with the kick...that would be to make the kick come out more, right? The kick comes out plenty now. At this point, I'm really only concerned with getting the guitars sounding the way I want. I know it's all about what it sounds like in the context of the mix...but even then, it's not what it needs to be or should be.

I'll take any other nifty or cool ideas/suggestions/tricks anyone might have.

[BLUElightCory]

I think that in heavy music, SO MUCH of the heaviness and impact comes from two sometimes overlooked factors:

1. Bass and drums. The bass and drums (especially the kick) should be like a single instrument. If the drummer and bassist aren't locking into each other and hitting really hard, the guitar isn't going to have the support it needs to sound "big." Keep in mind that much of the heaviness in modern rock/metal is coming from the bass and kick (reinforcing the guitars), even if it might seem to be the guitars themselves.

2. Guitars should be PLAYED. So much of the guitar tone (and bass and drums as well, now that I mention it) comes from the way the player approaches his/her instrument. The guitars aren't going to sound heavy and aggressive unless the guitarist played them that way. If he's going easy with a light pick and lighter strings, it's not going to sound heavy, regardless of what you're doing as an engineer. The heaviest sounding guitarists I've ever worked with beat the SHIT out of their guitar strings, and the sound reflected that. Granted, this is a quick route to tuning issues, but that extra 5-10% of ass-kick never comes easily.

Hope this helps,
Cory

[MarkRB]

The best thing about layering multiple guitar sounds is getting each part to do it's own job.
Like a chunky dull sound for the lo-end power, a middley sound for the detail and a gainy distorted (but not to bright) sound for the bite.

Distortion often equates to 'in your face'. If you recorded the DI's just try putting it through a pedal (or plug-in amp sim without the amp) and blending it with the amp sounds to get that hi end fizz/grit kind of thing going.

That said most of the ass-kicking is done by the bass and drums and tight playing as BLUElightCory noted.

[Master Tang]

[quote=Myriad_Rocker;1830465]

As for the bass and drums adding to the heavy factor...the drums have not been EQ'ed or anything. No compression on anything. Everything is raw. Bass sounds great tracked through the Great River. The bass guitar sounds pretty good in the mix, I think.

quote]


I'm sure the sound quality is great, but it wasn't the actual recording I was refering to. I was thinking of the arrangement between the rhytym section and the relationship to the guitars musically. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.


Think more arrangement, and what you are actually playing. The right bass and drum rythym combo will beef up guitars exponentially. Especially when they are tight.

[donsolo]

I just have a small $.02 to put in here:

No, it shouldn't always sound great along each step in the process.

Mixing is really about compromise. That's why ...And Justice For All had such huge guitars, no bass to compromise.

Sometimes you can't take great Sound A and great Sound B and put them together and except Great Result C.

Sometimes it's A - Something + B minus something = a well-balanced C.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I just have a small $.02 to put in here:

No, it shouldn't always sound great along each step in the process.

Mixing is really about compromise. That's why ...And Justice For All had such huge guitars, no bass to compromise.

Sometimes you can't take great Sound A and great Sound B and put them together and except Great Result C.

Sometimes it's A - Something + B minus something = a well-balanced C.

Then I guess I'll just make it sound as best I can right now and forge ahead.

[analogbass]

Some good ideas here; it's hard to suggest specific, appropriate remedies without concrete examples of the affliction. Relying only on inexact interpretations of what the "problem" is makes it almost impossible to provide anything beyond a cocktail of possibilities doesn't it? A term like "hard rock" is kinda general, really doesn't narrow it down. Ascertaining the actual affliction's part of the problem, made difficult without concrete audio examples that clarify. Clearer symptoms, clearer solutions. Posting audio clips along with details of what is perceived to be the ailment.

Failing that, be willing to experiment-F/X that will dirty up the sound, application of compression, getting the fundamental bass & drums framing the sounds right. Trial & error. And/or the opinions of a good engineer or objective 3rd party upon actually hearing something.

[PhiloBeddoe]

Impossible to tell without audio but - maybe you need more gain! The "use less gain than you think" is good advice but it's all relative of course. There is a point where it just sounds wimpy if you don't use enough. Too much and you're sunk too. I think this advice is aimed at the many guitarists who use too much gain all the time, usually as a crutch.

Some things to look out for with gain is too much fizz and a lack of bottom and attack or distinction between notes.

Also, sometimes too many guitars will reduce the in-your-faceness. You might try pulling a couple out of the mix to see what happens. Might help, might not. You do have to let the drums and bass breathe a little.

Experiment a lot and good luck!

[ryanojohn]

What is a 'kick ass' guitar tone in your opinion?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

I think that in heavy music, SO MUCH of the heaviness and impact comes from two sometimes overlooked factors:

1. Bass and drums. The bass and drums (especially the kick) should be like a single instrument. If the drummer and bassist aren't locking into each other and hitting really hard, the guitar isn't going to have the support it needs to sound "big." Keep in mind that much of the heaviness in modern rock/metal is coming from the bass and kick (reinforcing the guitars), even if it might seem to be the guitars themselves.

2. Guitars should be PLAYED. So much of the guitar tone (and bass and drums as well, now that I mention it) comes from the way the player approaches his/her instrument. The guitars aren't going to sound heavy and aggressive unless the guitarist played them that way. If he's going easy with a light pick and lighter strings, it's not going to sound heavy, regardless of what you're doing as an engineer. The heaviest sounding guitarists I've ever worked with beat the SHIT out of their guitar strings, and the sound reflected that. Granted, this is a quick route to tuning issues, but that extra 5-10% of ass-kick never comes easily.

Hope this helps,
Cory

Please read this again...esp point 2.

Nick

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

What is a 'kick ass' guitar tone in your opinion?

Like, an artist? Mark Tremonti on the new Blackbird album by Alter Bridge.

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Please read this again...esp point 2.

Oh, they're being played alright. The guitar playing is quite tight.

[8th_note]

mdme_sadie already mentioned this but I want to come back to it. You say it's not "BIG" enough. One thing that can increase the bigness of multiple recorded guitar parts is the use of a stereo delay. You have to experiment with the settings because if you use too much it starts to sound silly but this may be the sound you're after.

I'm not familiar with the reference albums that have been mentioned but listen to a CD in which you think the guitars sound "big" and compare it to something in the same genre with guitars that don't sound as big. If the smaller guitars are sitting at the plane of the speakers and the bigger sounding guitars have depth then that probably came from a delay. If it's that flat one dimensional "in your face" sound you're looking for then a delay isn't the ticket.

One other factor in my experience is that the guitars get bigger if you hit the song hard with a limiter during mastering. You might try mixing the entire song and then slam it with a limiter to see what happens or perhaps put the guitars into a group and hit that with a limiter. I know that distorted guitars are compressed already but a limiter does make a difference in the sound.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Thanks for all the posts. I'll take each suggestion and try it out and see what I come up with.

[JimmyM]

I don't believe in this "You have to do things different in the studio" mentality. A good recorded sound starts with good source sounds. So if your guitarists play with a lot of gain usually, they should record with a lot of gain. Don't be afraid to toss the rulebook out the window if it's not serving your needs.

[macmod]

Originally Posted by 8th_note

mdme_sadie already mentioned this but I want to come back to it. You say it's not "BIG" enough. One thing that can increase the bigness of multiple recorded guitar parts is the use of a stereo delay. You have to experiment with the settings because if you use too much it starts to sound silly but this may be the sound you're after.

I'm not familiar with the reference albums that have been mentioned but listen to a CD in which you think the guitars sound "big" and compare it to something in the same genre with guitars that don't sound as big. If the smaller guitars are sitting at the plane of the speakers and the bigger sounding guitars have depth then that probably came from a delay. If it's that flat one dimensional "in your face" sound you're looking for then a delay isn't the ticket.

One other factor in my experience is that the guitars get bigger if you hit the song hard with a limiter during mastering. You might try mixing the entire song and then slam it with a limiter to see what happens or perhaps put the guitars into a group and hit that with a limiter. I know that distorted guitars are compressed already but a limiter does make a difference in the sound.

This is signature file stuff, great

''You have to experiment with the settings because if you use too much it starts to sound silly but this may be the sound you're after.''


Carry on, cheers,
Macmod

[ryanojohn]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Like, an artist? Mark Tremonti on the new Blackbird album by Alter Bridge.

If you've already got a good source tone from the amp, and everything else is working already, try throwing it through a hardware 1176. Touch it lightly with some compression, maybe 2dB of gain reduction... the tone of that unit in itself will make the guitars sound bigger and more upfront.

give it a shot... maybe it'll help...

[perottol]

I would take a look (listen) at compression on the guitars, drums and bass. Lack of punch can be retained with a good compressor with the right amount of attack and release. Presets on vst-plugins often tends to kill the attack. As mentioned you need help from both the bass and drums to "nail it", so find good compression settings on these as well.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

If you've already got a good source tone from the amp, and everything else is working already, try throwing it through a hardware 1176. Touch it lightly with some compression, maybe 2dB of gain reduction... the tone of that unit in itself will make the guitars sound bigger and more upfront.

give it a shot... maybe it'll help...

Since when is an 1176 low end?

Good advise but probably doesn't have the means.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Since when is an 1176 low end?

Good advise but probably doesn't have the means.

You're right...I don't have a hardware 1176. Wish I did. However, I don't really think of my stuff as low-end either. I just don't have much of it, so it kind of falls into this realm of being low-end just because I don't have a ton of gear. I guess according to some really huge studios, it's pretty low end, though. I just try to get the best that my pocket can afford.

[hgen]

Heavy Rock is HARD to mix because it takes perfectionist ears to nail the sounds. Get someone with experience to mix it for you if your not cutting it, it's because you can't.

[GravityRobert]

Getting someone else to do it is the easy way out, you can do it. Take some records you like the guitar sound of and work with that. Remember, less gain is more!

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by hgen

Heavy Rock is HARD to mix because it takes perfectionist ears to nail the sounds. Get someone with experience to mix it for you if your not cutting it, it's because you can't.

Myriad - You'll probably ignore this advice and you should. You aren't going to eventually become "someone with experience" yourself unless you dive into this and make it the best it can be. Mix it, remix it, and learn all you can while you're doing it.

Cory